2018-19 Team

[Brawndo]

Even if you bring back a capable D, how have you upgraded the team. The way this team upgrades now is through draft and development or by spending some cap on a FA or two.

 

I also don't get this desire to move out a young capable D who we have overplayed the last few season simply to "Shake up" the core. Dahlin has yet to step foot in the NHL (or be drafted for that matter) and we only have half a D group now. Even with Dahlin we are still short one top 4 D. So lets trade a young, physical, good skating D who generates offenses and who we have lockup for years to come at a decent salary for what; a lesser D and a mediocre winger?

 

Lets trade lesser guys under contract to help our depth and use the resources here like Smith, Olofsson, Bailey, Baptiste, Nylander, O'Regan etc. in the lineup and see what they can do. Maybe just maybe a couple of these guys takes advantage of the opportunity and blossoms into a couple of the pieces we need. If they don't we aren't worse off then we were with Pouliot, Josefson and Nolan. The core here isn't the problem. The depth around them is.

 

The lack of depth around them is the problem.

Bingo. Trading RoR or Risto does us nothing. We just need our prospects to make it and JBott to land some depth players. Not the sexiest thing in the world but most correct solutions aren't.

This team did have a serious problem with locker room dysfunction over the past two years. It has been well documented by National and Local Media covering the team. Rob Ray mentioned it his Game Day Appearances on GR, Paul Hamilton has mentioned there is a feeling amongst management that certain players on the team that are not accepting of coaching and that he believes one of those players is Risto. Housley also mentioned on many a night that the team abandoned the game plan.

 

O’Reilly’s post game comments were a lesson in self deprecation and the his post season feelings are well documented.

Botterill did say he appreciates what ROR said and that he expressed what others in the room might be thinking.

 

They changed the Coaching Staff last offseason and things did not get better, now it’s time to look at the players. Botterill has had a full season to look the at the organization and see where these changes need to be made. If he feels that the locker room would be improved by trading one or both ROR or Risto and the return makes it worthwhile, he will consider it. Jeremy White mentioned after the trade deadline that the most calls the Sabres received leading up to it where on ROR with Calgary being the most mentioned team.

 

Unless Kane was a major driving force behind the room dysfunction, there is a strong possibility these problems will continue to plague the team for a third consecutive year.

 

Depth remains a huge problem for the team, but this one needs to be addressed first

 

 

I am not advocating for either to be traded for the hell of it, but if it needs to be done for team chemistry it needs to be done

 

 

If Botterill wasn’t at least considering major changes, Friedman’s Comments would never have been mentioned on air and this thread would have never been inspired

 

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25777-dahlin-major-rebuild/

Edited May 4, 2018 by Brawndo

[Sabel79]

Again...

 

JBOTs was on Wyshinski’s ESPN podcast today. I shall paraphrase salient points:

1. Dahlin is good.

2. Team was awful and needs to improve 5v5. See #1. (Though gave the standard phony nothing’s ever 100% when asked if he was definitely picking him).

3. Goaltending was nowhere good enough last season. This season it’ll be Ullmark and.... somebody else.

4. ROR was just telling the truth in the moment when he gave “those quotes”. Still counting on him going forward.

5. Rattled off the young talent on the team he’s looking to build around. Risto’s name was nowhere near his lips. Make of that what you will.

Linky: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/espn-on-ice-with-wyshynski-and-kaplan/id205946918?mt=2#episodeGuid=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.espn.com%2Fespnradio%2Fpodcast%3Fid%3D23383918

[WildCard]

Using my own posts against me. You dirty bastard Brawndo :lol:

 

I don't know, I'm just such on the fence about it. On one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I see the Kessel's of the world and TrueBlue's argument against this I kind of just wanna agree with him. I mean he's gotta be right eventually

Again...
 

Not sure what your point is here

[Brawndo]

Using my own posts against me. You dirty bastard Brawndo :lol:

 

I don't know, I'm just such on the fence about it. On one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I see the Kessel's of the world and TrueBlue's argument against this I kind of just wanna agree with him. I mean he's gotta be right eventually

 

Not sure what your point is here

Botterill is a very smart guy and is by many accounts the architect of the Penguins Depth. He is not going to move anyone for the heck of it, if a secondary core piece moves it’s for a very good reason.

[Randall Flagg]

I recall last summer, Botterill had referred to Risto as a "good young top 4 guy" or something like that. His coach then spent this season, like the previous coach, treating Risto as an elite 1D. (Just like with ROR, it's not a case of "well somebody has to use those minutes". There are teams without Ryan Suter that don't have defensemen taking those minutes and are fine, there are teams with bad defenses that don't ride one guy at that level, we actively choose to do something that might not be wise as if there was no alternative.) 

I wonder if Botterill and Phil have a disconnect there or if they talk and it's just because Botterill needs to upgrade the D, and when he does we won't have Risto in that role. 

I don't know where I'm going with this. 

Oh yeah, so Botterill not mentioning Risto might be more because he has always viewed him as second-pairing than a guarantee that he's a problem and/or will be gone.

[Crusader1969]

Risto has value per Friedman, but it’s contigent on bringing in a Defenseman to replace him in a separate deal

Again, who are you dealing to replace Risto?

 

I believe that winning will solve all locker room issues. Winning will happen when you add skill and talent. if you ranked all prospects on talent and skill in the entire world, the top 2 would probably be Mittelstadt and Dahlin. That's a good place to start....

[Brawndo]

Again, who are you dealing to replace Risto?

I believe that winning will solve all locker room issues. Winning will happen when you add skill and talent. if you ranked all prospects on talent and skill in the entire world, the top 2 would probably be Mittelstadt and Dahlin. That's a good place to start....

If and only if ROR is on the block, either by Botterill’s Desire or if ROR wants a trade (Yes, Botterill did say at his presser no one asked for a trade, but if anyone did he is not going to make that information public) I am calling Calgary, Carolina and St Louis First and I want a RHD back, (Parayko or Hamilton please.) Interestingly The Athletic had a piece with a small suggestion that Hamilton might be on the market echoing what Friedman said earlier.

 

And if Risto needs a change of scenery he gets moved forward.

 

Again it all depends on the return for any player that’s on the block.

 

Since this team is probably two years away from sustained winning, I do not want to run the risk of dragging Mittelstadt and Dahlin through that cesspool if it can be avoided.

[LikeEich]

This team did have a serious problem with locker room dysfunction over the past two years. It has been well documented by National and Local Media covering the team. Rob Ray mentioned it his Game Day Appearances on GR, Paul Hamilton has mentioned there is a feeling amongst management that certain players on the team that are not accepting of coaching and that he believes one of those players is Risto. Housley also mentioned on many a night that the team abandoned the game plan.

 

O’Reilly’s post game comments were a lesson in self deprecation and the his post season feelings are well documented.

Botterill did say he appreciates what ROR said and that he expressed what others in the room might be thinking.

 

They changed the Coaching Staff last offseason and things did not get better, now it’s time to look at the players. Botterill has had a full season to look the at the organization and see where these changes need to be made. If he feels that the locker room would be improved by trading one or both ROR or Risto and the return makes it worthwhile, he will consider it. Jeremy White mentioned after the trade deadline that the most calls the Sabres received leading up to it where on ROR with Calgary being the most mentioned team.

 

Unless Kane was a major driving force behind the room dysfunction, there is a strong possibility these problems will continue to plague the team for a third consecutive year.

 

Depth remains a huge problem for the team, but this one needs to be addressed first

 

 

I am not advocating for either to be traded for the hell of it, but if it needs to be done for team chemistry it needs to be done

 

 

If Botterill wasn’t at least considering major changes, Friedman’s Comments would never have been mentioned on air and this thread would have never been inspired

 

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25777-dahlin-major-rebuild/

Great post! I agree with most of it but here's a bit of a different take on it.

 

O'Reilly is an elite 2 way center if nothing else. Truly believe he loves the game and could be captain for alot of teams. An "A" for a deep team Canada says alot. The fact the this losing couture mentality has effected even him, leads me to believe it's not a couple 0layers that are the problem. It's the teams mindset. I mean we can all tell somethings not right when watching can't we? Inability to come back against any kind of adversity most nights. The shadow of doubt, or whatever you want to call it, creeps in and we shut down. Not being competitive for so long will do that to you. I have buddies I beat at nhl so often after I'm up 1-0 they literally think the game is over. Not trying to brag but it's a relatable point. What we need is a sound enough roster,some hope that were in this game, we can skate with these guys and win. Dahlin arrival has already helped that IMO, we have a glimmer of hope when yesterday we didn't. I can feel it, you can feel it, Eichel and ROR and everyone else can too. If a good hockey trade comes up then that's what happens, as long as the on ice product is better for it I'm all ears. Just a take not saying I have it figured out, but here's 3 of my next season rosters, with and without major shakeups.

 

A-

Baptiste O'Reilly Reinhart*7x6.5 (wishful thinking but a bridge would come in lower cap hit)

JVR*3x6.5 Eichel okposo

Erod mitts pommers

Girgs Larsson Bailey (Bailey baptiste each at 2x950000)

 

Scandella risto

MCCABE Dahlin

Beaulieu guhle antipin1x1.25M Pilut fighting for time. Bogo hurt but not in LTIR

 

Lehner3x4.125

Ullmark

Leaves is with little cap flexabilty for a season, nothing too detrimental. Might not be enough term for JVR but because we hit 6.5 we got him. Maybe not realistic but there's a chance.

 

B

Huge free agent signing of Tavares. This one's more of a pipe dream then A. Enabled us to pull off an Inter-division. O'Reilly and a 2018 2nd rd, for Pacioretty, LW prospect Kerby Rychel and goaltending prospect Zachary Fucale.(potentially different draft pick if MTL is willing to sign Lehner and shop him or keep him)

 

Pacioretty Tavares Okposo

Erod Eichel Reinhart

Baptiste/Rychel mitts pommers

 

And the rest pretty well identical to A. Tavares 11.5×7. Reinhart 4.2x2. Leaves us pretty tight to cap. Flexabilty could be found by denoting players such as Beaulieu,or LTIR bogo. With that space a 1yr ufa deal for a goalie could be found as a stop gap.

 

C- Which I believe will be closest to reality. Maybe not same players but same positions being filled.

LW Matt Calvert signed 1x2.5

Speedster Grabner 2x2M

Grubauer either traded for(As per PA) or slim back door chance of a 1×3.925975M offer sheet(compensation 2nd rd pick, which is maximum before it becomes 1st and 3rd)

Reinhart 3x4.75M grubauer 5x4.75M leaves us with roughly 2M.

 

Please note this all options reflect a modest 2.5M increase in the cap to 77.5M.

 

I'd Risto is moved, as one of the only trades we make, I think it would be for a comparable D. Trouba, Hanifin etc... although I don't think him moving is likely. As stated ^, you don't play a guy 28mins a night if you don't trust him.

 

Sorry for the many grammar and spelling mistakes. Mobile is a biotch and not going to proof read it because hopefully you get it haha. Also forwards can be shuffled and probably will be as needed. Not saying that Bailey belongs in the 4th or baptiste on the 1st or anything of that nature

Edited May 4, 2018 by LikeEich

[Marions Piazza]

Great post! I agree with most of it but here's a bit of a different take on it.

 

O'Reilly is an elite 2 way center if nothing else. Truly believe he loves the game and could be captain for alot of teams. An "A" for a deep team Canada says alot. The fact the this losing couture mentality has effected even him, leads me to believe it's not a couple 0layers that are the problem. It's the teams mindset. I mean we can all tell somethings not right when watching can't we? Inability to come back against any kind of adversity most nights. The shadow of doubt, or whatever you want to call it, creeps in and we shut down. Not being competitive for so long will do that to you. I have buddies I beat at nhl so often after I'm up 1-0 they literally think the game is over. Not trying to brag but it's a relatable point. What we need is a sound enough roster,some hope that were in this game, we can skate with these guys and win. Dahlin arrival has already helped that IMO, we have a glimmer of hope when yesterday we didn't. I can feel it, you can feel it, Eichel and ROR and everyone else can too. If a good hockey trade comes up then that's what happens, as long as the on ice product is better for it I'm all ears. Just a take not saying I have it figured out, but here's 3 of my next season rosters, with and without major shakeups.

 

A-

Baptiste O'Reilly Reinhart*7x6.5 (wishful thinking but a bridge would come in lower cap hit)

JVR*3x6.5 Eichel okposo

Erod mitts pommers

Girgs Larsson Bailey (Bailey baptiste each at 2x950000)

 

Scandella risto

MCCABE Dahlin

Beaulieu guhle antipin1x1.25M Pilut fighting for time. Bogo hurt but not in LTIR

 

Lehner3x4.125

Ullmark

Leaves is with little cap flexabilty for a season, nothing too detrimental. Might not be enough term for JVR but because we hit 6.5 we got him. Maybe not realistic but there's a chance.

 

B

Huge free agent signing of Tavares. This one's more of a pipe dream then A. Enabled us to pull off an Inter-division. O'Reilly and a 2018 2nd rd, for Pacioretty, LW prospect Kerby Rychel and goaltending prospect Zachary Fucale.(potentially different draft pick if MTL is willing to sign Lehner and shop him or keep him)

 

Pacioretty Tavares Okposo

Erod Eichel Reinhart

Baptiste/Rychel mitts pommers

 

And the rest pretty well identical to A. Tavares 11.5×7. Reinhart 4.2x2. Leaves us pretty tight to cap. Flexabilty could be found by denoting players such as Beaulieu,or LTIR bogo. With that space a 1yr ufa deal for a goalie could be found as a stop gap.

 

C- Which I believe will be closest to reality. Maybe not same players but same positions being filled.

LW Matt Calvert signed 1x2.5

Speedster Grabner 2x2M

Grubauer either traded for(As per PA) or slim back door chance of a 1×3.925975M offer sheet(compensation 2nd rd pick, which is maximum before it becomes 1st and 3rd)

Reinhart 3x4.75M grubauer 5x4.75M leaves us with roughly 2M.

 

Please note this all options reflect a modest 2.5M increase in the cap to 77.5M.

 

I'd Risto is moved, as one of the only trades we make, I think it would be for a comparable D. Trouba, Hanifin etc... although I don't think him moving is likely. As stated ^, you don't play a guy 28mins a night if you don't trust him.

 

Sorry for the many grammar and spelling mistakes. Mobile is a biotch and not going to proof read it because hopefully you get it haha. Also forwards can be shuffled and probably will be as needed. Not saying that Bailey belongs in the 4th or baptiste on the 1st or anything of that nature

In scenario A, I defintely think you can get Reino on a lower AAV bridge deal in the $4M per range.  I dont think thats enough speed with Eichel, JVR + KO cant keep up with him.  I would perhaps switch JVR with Baptiste/Erod in your lineup.  I would like to see one of GIrgs and Larry gone, you didn't mention Wilson in the bottom 6 who I believe is the best bottom 6 player we have currently.  I want nothing to do with Lehner

 

Scenario B- pipe dream indeed, would be awesome to have JT and Eichel as the top 2 Cs.  I think that RoR and a 2nd is a slight overpayment for Pacioretty, but I would still do it.

 

Scenario C- looks good

[Randall Flagg]

There are not many players I want to add less than Max Pacioretty.

[dudacek]

There is no GM in the league who would take Pacioretty over O’Reilly.

[WildCard]

Shoot me now if Lehner is still on this team next year.

 

Besides that, what does everyone think of JVR? Do people want him?

[Randall Flagg]

Shoot me now if Lehner is still on this team next year.

 

Besides that, what does everyone think of JVR? Do people want him?

Yeah, let's give another slow skating 29 year old winger a 7 year deal.

 

Of the wingers that have signed these deals in the last 2-3 years, the one that is currently the best nearly died within the last year.

[WildCard]

Yeah, let's give another slow skating 29 year old winger a 7 year deal.

 

Of the wingers that have signed these deals in the last 2-3 years, the one that is currently the best nearly died within the last year.

Honestly I know nothing of JVR really

[Randall Flagg]

Honestly I know nothing of JVR really

That came off more snarky than I intended.

 

I really am not a JVR fan.

 

Their line was decent at even strength but he doesn't skate well and plays defense realbad. We've tried this exact contract with Moulson and KO. Both of those guys were near their 30G/60 point seasons and looked forward to, both were regretted within a season and a half. Even if we get twice that time out of JVR (which I'm not convinced at all) there will be 3-4 ugly years there.

[WildCard]

That came off more snarky than I intended.

 

I really am not a JVR fan.

 

Their line was decent at even strength but he doesn't skate well and plays defense realbad. We've tried this exact contract with Moulson and KO. Both of those guys were near their 30G/60 point seasons and looked forward to, both were regretted within a season and a half. Even if we get twice that time out of JVR (which I'm not convinced at all) there will be 3-4 ugly years there.

No worries :beer:

 

Yeah that sounds an awful lot like Moulson. I'm become more and more convinced that short of trading RoR, our only solutions to our winger problem lies in Sweden

[TrueBlueGED]

My biggest hope for Botterill is that he's smart enough to avoid paying for past performance long into the future. 

[Randall Flagg]

Also, on Pacioretty - he was a big voice in the Habs locker room that didn't like how flamboyant and about-me PK Subban was. Fair. But another team made that work just fine, and Pacioretty was an influential part of the deal that sent Montreal spiraling. Fine, but back it up max. Instead, as their free fall from playoffs started last year, he scored one non-empty net goal in over 30 games.

 

Dude is a loser and his hockey skills aren't even that fun. He only has one NHL quality shot (it is a good wrist shot but he's pathetic at everything else) and he doesn't really DO anything besides that.

[Crusader1969]

Shoot me now if Lehner is still on this team next year.

 

Besides that, what does everyone think of JVR? Do people want him?

 

 

I think he will be too expensive, had a good season but completely disappeared in playoffs.  He is 29 today and doesn't skate fast.   Doesnt fit the bill IMO.

[CallawaySabres]

Strictly looking at free agents (and not trades), I would go after Grabner. He has speed with some scoring and should not cost too much. He probably ends up back in NY though....

[TrueBlueGED]

Strictly looking at free agents (and not trades), I would go after Grabner. He has speed with some scoring and should not cost too much. He probably ends up back in NY though....

 

Grabner would be a great add if he can be had relatively cheap and short term (see: 1 year). He's exactly the type of addition I'm looking for to fill the roster while the kids develop. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by TrueBlueGED

[LikeEich]

In scenario A, I defintely think you can get Reino on a lower AAV bridge deal in the $4M per range. I dont think thats enough speed with Eichel, JVR + KO cant keep up with him. I would perhaps switch JVR with Baptiste/Erod in your lineup. I would like to see one of GIrgs and Larry gone, you didn't mention Wilson in the bottom 6 who I believe is the best bottom 6 player we have currently. I want nothing to do with Lehner

 

Scenario B- pipe dream indeed, would be awesome to have JT and Eichel as the top 2 Cs. I think that RoR and a 2nd is a slight overpayment for Pacioretty, but I would still do it.

 

Scenario C- looks good

Definetly totally forgot Wilson! I also see him being an effective bottom 6 this season.

 

Had JVR for goal scoring prowess not foot speed. But ya alot of it was to show our cap flexabilty in signing a good forward or defensemen, on shorter term for more AAV. 3 years or less kind of thing. Wouldn't be detrimental. What I am getting at is we do have quote a bit of room to add and a free agent signing could lead to someone being moved for other needs. Fucale I think we will be a great goalie one day but I could be wrong. But he was a big part of the MTL deal though it probably is an overpayment.

 

EDIT: yes in option A I elected to go longer term of 7 years in reino. That's why the cap hit is higher to show if that's what JBot has in mind we still maintain some space

Edited May 4, 2018 by LikeEich

[CallawaySabres]

I would not touch JVR at ALL. He is going to want many years at too much $$ and this team needs to get younger and FASTER!

[LikeEich]

I'm aware of KOs rough season, but the guy is a top 40 player-yes even last season- at his position. Ya the long term deal blows big ones. And yes the team needs to get younger and faster. I would rather have to push and aging slower bit still productive guy down the lineup, because my younger speedsters are lighting it up, then be forced to give minutes to a kid who isn't ready to be playing them because we have no choice. We have the cap room in the next couple seasons. Use it. Maybe we won't finish last

 

Not advocating for JVR here. He may not be a fit, while we do have some young guys that appear ready to take the next step, I'm not banking on it by any means. It is very important to note though, not everybody is Leino and Moulson

[Crusader1969]

I'm aware of KOs rough season, but the guy is a top 40 player-yes even last season- at his position. Ya the long term deal blows big ones. And yes the team needs to get younger and faster. I would rather have to push and aging slower bit still productive guy down the lineup, because my younger speedsters are lighting it up, then be forced to give minutes to a kid who isn't ready to be playing them because we have no choice. We have the cap room in the next couple seasons. Use it. Maybe we won't finish last

 

Not advocating for JVR here. He may not be a fit, while we do have some young guys that appear ready to take the next step, I'm not banking on it by any means. It is very important to note though, not everybody is Leino and Moulson

 

 

He is 29 and already slow footed. great hands and plays in front of the net on the PP.   We already have Samson at 22 to play pretty well the same role.

 

Its probably an unpopular take but I don't want them to sign any FA, maybe a 4th line Center or a RD depth player.  Let the kids play prominent roles next year and figure out what we have.  

 

go into the summer of 2019 with cap space and a clear idea of the team needs.  Give Mittelstadt a full year protected as a 3rd line center and potentially move ROR next summer.  Give Guhle and Dahlin a full season and if they are ready to take the top 2 LHD spots, then you can even move Scandella.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Crusader1969