Trading camp questions #5: How good is Sam Reinhart?

[qwksndmonster]

It's basic hockey. When the other team has the puck your center is responsible for picking up the 3rd forward of the other team while your defensemen pick up the other two forwards and your wingers pick up their defenders. Playing defense is much easier for a winger than a center.

 

Since O'Reilly is far and away our most defensively responsible forward it would make zero sense to waste his talents at wing just to put people who aren't as good at defending (Eichel and Reinhart) in his place.

Or like, O'Reilly could play C in the D zone and Eichel could play it in the O zone.

[dudacek]

Or like, O'Reilly could play C in the D zone and Eichel could play it in the O zone.

NO NO NO!

 

Hockey has heirarchy! Rules!

What you saying is anarchy. Anarchy, I say!

[Drunkard]

Or like, O'Reilly could play C in the D zone and Eichel could play it in the O zone.

 

That's fine. Eichel is just a center in name only then to make people feel better and O'Reilly is the actual center.

[GASabresIUFAN]

If you re-draft Sam's year, is he still the 2nd overall pick or is he 5th or worse? I'd argue that Ekblad, Nylander, Draisaitl, Pastrnak and maybe Ehlers would all go before him. So, if Mittelstadt and Nylander step up this season and Asplund continues his growth, do you save the money and trade Sam for more young D, or for a natural winger for Jack, or to help retain Kane if he breaks out as Jack's trigger man?

 

Personally, I think Sam can be a 70 pt guy in this league as a center. I see him as a 60 pt winger. If I had to predict his future here, I think he has another improved season on an improved team and has a somewhat invisible 55 pts. Jbot signs him to a 2-3 year bridge deal and then trades him when Mittelstadt outplays him in 2018-19.

[LGR4GM]

Ask me again after this season. It is a prove it season for me with Sam.  I still don't think we will see him at his best on the wing. Puck distribution is his thing and that happens far less from the wing. 

[SwampD]

If you re-draft Sam's year, is he still the 2nd overall pick or is he 5th or worse? I'd argue that Ekblad, Nylander, Draisaitl, Pastrnak and maybe Ehlers would all go before him. So, if Mittelstadt and Nylander step up this season and Asplund continues his growth, do you save the money and trade Sam for more young D, or for a natural winger for Jack, or to help retain Kane if he breaks out as Jack's trigger man?

 

Personally, I think Sam can be a 70 pt guy in this league as a center. I see him as a 60 pt winger. If I had to predict his future here, I think he has another improved season on an improved team and has a somewhat invisible 55 pts. Jbot signs him to a 2-3 year bridge deal and then trades him when Mittelstadt outplays him in 2018-19.

So you see him as a Patrice Bergeron type, then (ftr, I do).

 

Why would you trade that?

[GASabresIUFAN]

So you see him as a Patrice Bergeron type, then (ftr, I do).

 

Why would you trade that?

He'll never be as good defensively as Bergeron. Also my thoughts on his potential sadly aren't with the Sabres. Center is crowded in Buffalo (which is a good thing) and getting "worse" with Asplund and Mittelstadt in the fold and not yet on their ELCs. Sam is never going to supplant Jack and ROR in the middle. Therefore, he's either a top 6 winger or a 3rd line center. Like Dudacek and other, I think his highest and best use is at center. If I'm Jbot and given the desperate need for top 2 line centers around the NHL, I think he gets a high price for Reinhart if he moves him.

 

Part of the problem with contracts like ROR's and Jack's potential deal is how you manage the cap with huge deals on the books. The answer is moving on from some good players and hope the kids coming up meet or exceed the departed players production.

[Taro T]

If you re-draft Sam's year, is he still the 2nd overall pick or is he 5th or worse? I'd argue that Ekblad, Nylander, Draisaitl, Pastrnak and maybe Ehlers would all go before him. So, if Mittelstadt and Nylander step up this season and Asplund continues his growth, do you save the money and trade Sam for more young D, or for a natural winger for Jack, or to help retain Kane if he breaks out as Jack's trigger man?

Personally, I think Sam can be a 70 pt guy in this league as a center. I see him as a 60 pt winger. If I had to predict his future here, I think he has another improved season on an improved team and has a somewhat invisible 55 pts. Jbot signs him to a 2-3 year bridge deal and then trades him when Mittelstadt outplays him in 2018-19.

If he is a 70 pt C or a 60 pt W, just how much of an upgrade do you expect sending him out for a W?

 

If it turns out that Scandella is over rated, McCabe has plateaud, Beaulieu is what Bergevin thought he was, & neither Antipin nor Guhle are suited for the NHL game then let's see what Reinhart can bring back in a trade. Right now, I'd kind of like to see what they have before dealing away young guys that could be key contributors.

[Randall Flagg]

I am not looking to trade Sam, but if the right deal was offered I'd think long and hard about it. I'd be much more comfortable doing it after this season, because I don't think he will regress and tank his trade value. 

As far as a redraft right this second, 

Draisaitl
Pastrnak
Nylander

Ekblad (only because of injury)

Ehlers

Reinhart

Larkin

Fabbri 

Tryamkin

Bennett

 

This still has a lot of changing to go through of course.

[GASabresIUFAN]

If he is a 70 pt C or a 60 pt W, just how much of an upgrade do you expect sending him out for a W?

If it turns out that Scandella is over rated, McCabe has plateaud, Beaulieu is what Bergevin thought he was, & neither Antipin nor Guhle are suited for the NHL game then let's see what Reinhart can bring back in a trade. Right now, I'd kind of like to see what they have before dealing away young guys that could be key contributors.

I'm looking for more of a goal scorer and less playmaker on Jack's wing, which is why I mentioned the possible re-signing of Kane. Sam looks more like a 20d 40a guy then a 30-30 guy.

[Thorny]

That's fine. Eichel is just a center in name only then to make people feel better and O'Reilly is the actual center.

Except for when he's actually playing centre, in the offensive zone. Then he's a real centre?

 

If you re-draft Sam's year, is he still the 2nd overall pick or is he 5th or worse? I'd argue that Ekblad, Nylander, Draisaitl, Pastrnak and maybe Ehlers would all go before him. So, if Mittelstadt and Nylander step up this season and Asplund continues his growth, do you save the money and trade Sam for more young D, or for a natural winger for Jack, or to help retain Kane if he breaks out as Jack's trigger man?

Personally, I think Sam can be a 70 pt guy in this league as a center. I see him as a 60 pt winger. If I had to predict his future here, I think he has another improved season on an improved team and has a somewhat invisible 55 pts. Jbot signs him to a 2-3 year bridge deal and then trades him when Mittelstadt outplays him in 2018-19.

60 point winger who can fill in at centre in a pinch? I'm keeping Sam, particularly because Mittelstadt and Nylander play on the LW. As does Kane. For RW, we have Okposo.

 

Sam is basically already a first line caliber RW. He's also only 21. We may even get him on a reasonably priced contract that may turn out to be a bargain. I'm trading Okposo before I trade Reinhart.

[Drunkard]

Except for when he's actually playing centre, in the offensive zone. Then he's a real centre?

 

 

60 point winger who can fill in at centre in a pinch? I'm keeping Sam, particularly because Mittelstadt and Nylander play on the LW. As does Kane. For RW, we have Okposo.

 

Sam is basically already a first line caliber RW. He's also only 21. We may even get him on a reasonably priced contract that may turn out to be a bargain. I'm trading Okposo before I trade Reinhart.

 

It makes them both part time centers with O'Reilly doing all the heavy lifting. It means our franchise center that seemingly everyone is on board with paying $10 million a year to (or more) needs to be sheltered by another guy and we're still not utilizing our players fully because they should both be centering their own lines (along with Reinhart). If guys like Larsson and Josefson are both playing center so we can partially waste the talent of guys like O'Reilly, Eichel, or Reinhart on the wing then something is wrong.

 

I agree with you on Reinhart though. He should be kept (even if they only see him as a winger) and if we need to move bodies we should start with the players who are in decline or will be declining shortly. Okposo is a great example. His production will likely start to decline in a year or two. The last few years of his contract are going to be Moulsonesque. We can all hope some cap floor team will be enticed by the cap hit > actual salary but that will only help if the player is still productive. Moulson was marginally productive last year and we're still stuck with that cap anchor. I just don't see any floor teams busting down our door next year to save that $2 million difference between his cap hit over the final year of his contract.

[Doohickie]

(even if they only see him as a winger)

This is the most pressing question of training camp/early season for me:  Is Samson a center in JBot/Housley's eyes?  Or will he be a winger from here on out?  They no doubt know his previous history, both during and before the Sabres.  Will they put him at his natural position?  Even if he converts back to a winger at some point, I think they need to at least look at him as a center.  He might be pretty good, and maybe more effective than he is as a winger.

[Drunkard]

This is the most pressing question of training camp/early season for me:  Is Samson a center in JBot/Housley's eyes?  Or will he be a winger from here on out?  They no doubt know his previous history, both during and before the Sabres.  Will they put him at his natural position?  Even if he converts back to a winger at some point, I think they need to at least look at him as a center.  He might be pretty good, and maybe more effective than he is as a winger.

 

I agree. I'd love to see him center the 3rd line with a good winger like Kane and see what he can do. This is the last year of his ELC and we need to see what we have in him while we're still dealing with dead weight on the roster (Gorges, Moulson) and we're not expected to seriously contend for the Cup. 

 

In 2-3 years once most of the anchors have been cleared (Gorges, Moulson, Pominville, possibly Bogosian) and our Lord and Savior Casey Mittelstadt is making Eichel an afterthought we need to know what we have in the rest of the supporting cast.

[dudacek]

This is the most pressing question of training camp/early season for me:  Is Samson a center in JBot/Housley's eyes?  Or will he be a winger from here on out?  They no doubt know his previous history, both during and before the Sabres.  Will they put him at his natural position?  Even if he converts back to a winger at some point, I think they need to at least look at him as a center.  He might be pretty good, and maybe more effective than he is as a winger.

 

Agreed. Maybe I should have phrased the opener that way.

I'm very excited to see how the new regime will be slotting talent, after all the wrongheaded, stubborn decisions under DDB.

Edited September 7, 2017 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

sam was 3rd in points last year for Buffalo. thats how good.

[nfreeman]

sam was 3rd in points last year for Buffalo. thats how good.

 

Or you could say he had 17 goals for a terrible team, including, IIRC, something like 25 games in a row without an even-strength goal.

 

I too think that DDB didn't get the most out of him, and I really want to see him get a chance at center.  But do we have to shout down all doubts about him and pretend that he's established himself as a star?

[LGR4GM]

Or you could say he had 17 goals for a terrible team, including, IIRC, something like 25 games in a row without an even-strength goal.

 

I too think that DDB didn't get the most out of him, and I really want to see him get a chance at center.  But do we have to shout down all doubts about him and pretend that he's established himself as a star?

I didn't shout down anyone. I don't think Sam will be a "star". 

 

Dan Bylsma is a garbage coach. 

[Thorny]

I agree. I'd love to see him center the 3rd line with a good winger like Kane and see what he can do. This is the last year of his ELC and we need to see what we have in him while we're still dealing with dead weight on the roster (Gorges, Moulson) and we're not expected to seriously contend for the Cup.

 

In 2-3 years once most of the anchors have been cleared (Gorges, Moulson, Pominville, possibly Bogosian) and our Lord and Savior Casey Mittelstadt is making Eichel an afterthought we need to know what we have in the rest of the supporting cast.

I completely agree. Particularly on the Mittelstadt bit.

 

Unfortunately, I think Reinhart is played at wing and Josefsson does indeed get the final C spot.

 

Agreed. Maybe I should have phrased the opener that way.

I'm very excited to see how the new regime will be slotting talent, after all the wrongheaded, stubborn decisions under DDB.

Let's just hope Botterill has re-opened his positional stance on Sam after declaring him a winger when he first came aboard.

 

Or you could say he had 17 goals for a terrible team, including, IIRC, something like 25 games in a row without an even-strength goal.

 

I too think that DDB didn't get the most out of him, and I really want to see him get a chance at center. But do we have to shout down all doubts about him and pretend that he's established himself as a star?

I very much dislike using goals as the key focus for a guy who will make his living passing the puck. 17 goals is more than fine going forward, if he's getting 50/60 points.

 

Definitely agree he's not established as a star, though.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Thorny

[Pokey Jones]

Well thanks rakish - I have 1 supporter  :thumbsup:

 

Honestly around here there are so many over valuing last year's team acting like it is so full of talent it was all just bad coaching so now it's going to be all fixed. Can't seem to accept that so many of these guys just simply aren't very good. You watch, if this team improves and picks up it's tempo as per the design, Reinhart will look worse and start the clock on counting the days until the discussion is on Reinhart's scoring drought. You heard it here first. 

[LGR4GM]

Scoring drought as in goal scoring or points? I could fully see a system where Reinhart is given the directive of feed the puck to Eichel and we see Reinhart get like 15g but 45a.