Training camp questions #2: What do we have in Zemgus Girgensons?

[bob_sauve28]

I think he will be an after thought soon

[nfreeman]

Zemgus will be an interesting test case for Howie.  He's got size and speed and generally seems to have the necessary tools, and has shown flashes over the years, but has been more or less completely ineffective for the past couple of seasons. 

 

OTOH, it's hard to imagine a worse environment for a young player to spend his formative years (age 18-22) than the one provided by the Sabres for the past few years.

 

Did that environment ruin him?  Or was he never much of a prospect to begin with? 

 

Remember that Darcy drafted him -- and Darcy was terrible at drafting forwards.

[darksabre]

Zemgus will be an interesting test case for Howie.  He's got size and speed and generally seems to have the necessary tools, and has shown flashes over the years, but has been more or less completely ineffective for the past couple of seasons. 

 

OTOH, it's hard to imagine a worse environment for a young player to spend his formative years (age 18-22) than the one provided by the Sabres for the past few years.

 

Did that environment ruin him?  Or was he never much of a prospect to begin with? 

 

Remember that Darcy drafted him -- and Darcy was terrible at drafting forwards.

I'll just say it: I don't believe in the concept of players being "ruined". Playing at the highest level is always going to be good for development, it just may wash out players who aren't ready. I think Zemgus is past the stage where he would have washed out. 

[nfreeman]

I'll just say it: I don't believe in the concept of players being "ruined". Playing at the highest level is always going to be good for development, it just may wash out players who aren't ready. I think Zemgus is past the stage where he would have washed out. 

 

I don't either.  For example, I think Grigorenko was never going to be a good NHL player.

 

However, I do think proper development can help a prospect realize his potential more quickly and more completely. 

 

Zemgus is 23.  If he has more to give, there's plenty of time for him and Wowie to figure out how to extract it.

[ubkev]

I think I'm closer to this than he should be on Jack's wing.

So am I. Waaay closer.

[Mustache of God]

I have more hope in Bogo turning it around than Girgensons and the idea of him being on Jack's wing does not bode well with me. We need someone with the ability to finish Jack's feeds, like Kane, Okposo, or Nylander (unlikely as it is).

[bob_sauve28]

I see him filling Foligno's role. Speedy power forward who hits and contributes a few goals here and there, playing in the middle six.

 

 

Nope.  Moulson is gonna score 33 goals this year.  (You read it here first.)

 

The first point is great. Think you are on to something there.

 

 

The second point on Moulson, not so much

I have more hope in Bogo turning it around than Girgensons and the idea of him being on Jack's wing does not bode well with me. We need someone with the ability to finish Jack's feeds, like Kane, Okposo, or Nylander (unlikely as it is).

Or Bailey or Baptise?

[dudacek]

What you need on Eichel's wing is a finisher, a guy like Jeff Carter would be ideal, but there's only one Jeff Carter.... Pastrnak would be nice,  Hossa,  Cam Neely, Kevin Stevens, Mogilny, Kurri, Selanne, ...  those types of guys.    I'd try Okposo there to start, but they just don't have that guy in the organization yet.

They do. His name is Alex Nylander.

Hope he'll be ready someday soon.

 

When I see the talk about Girgs on Jacks wing, I picture him as the other guy - the forechecker, cornerman and defensive conscience.

It's very easy to extrapolate him as a 15/15 guy who plays in the top six or top nine depending on the situation. He can skate, he can grind and he has shown good hands. His head has yet to catch up with the NHL game, but, other than his shot, his other skills are legit big league.

 

I really like how Botterill has left that LW spot open behind Kane and intends to let some vets who believe they've been wronged (Girgs, Pouliot, Moulson) battle it out with some kids who believe their time has come (Bailey, Nylander, maybe others).

 

The opportunity is there for someone to seize.

[bob_sauve28]

They do. His name is Alex Nylander.

Hope he'll be ready someday soon.

When I see the talk about Girgs on Jacks wing, I picture him as the other guy - the forechecker, cornerman and defensive conscience.

It's very easy to extrapolate him as a 15/15 guy who plays in the top six or top nine depending on the situation. He can skate, he can grind and he has shown good hands. His head has yet to catch up with the NHL game, but, other than his shot, his other skills are legit big league.

I really like how Botterill has left that LW spot open behind Kane and intends to let some vets who believe they've been wronged (Girgs, Pouliot, Moulson) battle it out with some kids who believe their time has come (Bailey, Nylander, maybe others).

The opportunity is there for someone to seize.

There really is some serious competition for positions upfront and back. Not sure I ever remember a situation like this with so many decent players competing for starting jobs

[Sabel79]

Zemgus will be an interesting test case for Howie.  He's got size and speed and generally seems to have the necessary tools, and has shown flashes over the years, but has been more or less completely ineffective for the past couple of seasons. 

 

OTOH, it's hard to imagine a worse environment for a young player to spend his formative years (age 18-22) than the one provided by the Sabres for the past few years.

 

Did that environment ruin him?  Or was he never much of a prospect to begin with? 

 

Remember that Darcy drafted him -- and Darcy was terrible at drafting forwards.

I think that Zemgus benefited greatly under Ted's monkeys banging on typewriters coaching style and Latvians hijacking the all-star vote early on.

 

He's not good.

[Ogre]

I think that Zemgus benefited greatly under Ted's monkeys banging on typewriters coaching style and Latvians hijacking the all-star vote early on.

 

He's not good.

I wouldn't go so far to say 'no good' but agree that he may be less than what we hoped for. Speed. Size. Tenacity.

I'd like to see him show more than raw skill. Flying around isn't going to get him there.

[Huckleberry]

We'll need him to be 3x times better than last year, just don't see it though.

 

His limited hockey IQ , I can't see him playing with jack or Samson.   

Edited September 2, 2017 by Huckleberry

[bob_sauve28]

Where is TCQ 3???

[dudacek]

Where is TCQ 3???

Hey man, I'm on the West Coast. It's 6:15 am here on a holiday weekend. ????

Edited September 2, 2017 by dudacek

[DirtDart]

I see him on the third line with Larry playing that solid two way winter that can kill penalties, and chip in 10-15 goals a year.

[jeffismagic]

TCQ 2!

I think Zemgus is the perfect player to play on Jack's left. He is reasonably fast, skates well, and can dig the puck out of the corner. He does that and feeds it to an open Jack and we are in business. I think his shot last year was atrocious and hopefully something he worked on but generally think he was poorly used. His stats the last two years stink of Bylsma. I have faith in his resurgence. 

 

This is my best case scenario. A young power forward. We shall see soon enough whether this is wishful thinking.

[Thorny]

Nothing. He'll be out of the NHL in a couple years.

 

Girgensons doesn't belong in the NHL IMO.

 

Name one thing he does particularly well...  he's below average across the board in all facets of today's game.

 

He would be a quality AHL player, I expect him to either get waived or traded by the time this team sniffs the playoffs.

  

I think I'm closer to this than he should be on Jack's wing.

 

 

Yup.

 

What you need on Eichel's wing is a finisher, a guy like Jeff Carter would be ideal, but there's only one Jeff Carter.... Pastrnak would be nice,  Hossa,  Cam Neely, Kevin Stevens, Mogilny, Kurri, Selanne, ...  those types of guys.    I'd try Okposo there to start, but they just don't have that guy in the organization yet.

Mittelstadt if we are lucky. Looks to have the tools.

 

For a couple years down the line.

[Randall Flagg]

Nothing. He'll be out of the NHL in a couple years.

 

Yup.

bet 

 

Weird how one of the only NHL players in 2 years to benefit Jack shouldn't be anywhere near him

[Thorny]

bet 

 

Weird how one of the only NHL players in 2 years to benefit Jack shouldn't be anywhere near him

They didn't put up anything together. Small sample size is small sample size. Let's play Jack with a guy who can actually contribute offensively.

[Randall Flagg]

They didn't put up anything together. Small sample size is small sample size. Let's play Jack with a guy who can actually contribute offensively.

We literally just had this conversation and you came away agreeing with me...

Rust is not a guy you could stick on the Sabres and expect any offense whatsoever from and he is brilliant in letting Crosby and Malkin do what they do 

 

It isn't about putting all the highest scorers on the team together on one line

 

I mean for Chrissakes people are putting Nylander-who-could-be-Cam-Fowler-right-now next to Jack and anointing him Jack's scoring winger when he hasn't even progressed to being a slightly below average AHL player yet. 

[Thorny]

How many goals has Girgensons scored, assisted by Eichel, or vice versa? Sure, the advance stats indicate, in a very limited sampling, that Girgs didn't seem to weight Eichel down. They haven't actually produced anything together, and maybe it's because they didn't get an extended look together, but odds are a guy who hasn't shown much offensively isn't going to snap to it on Eichel's left.

 

Let's give him a shot on Eichel's wing. I'll gladly eat crow if he puts up numbers. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

We literally just had this conversation and you came away agreeing with me...Rust is not a guy you could stick on the Sabres and expect any offense whatsoever from and he is brilliant in letting Crosby and Malkin do what they do 

It isn't about putting all the highest scorers on the team together on one line

I mean for Chrissakes people are putting ###### Nylander-who-could-be-Cam-Fowler-right-now next to Jack and anointing him Jack's scoring winger when he hasn't even progressed to being a slightly below average AHL player yet.

 

I agreed only that I'd like to see him get a chance there. But what do I expect from it? I don't expect anything. My guess is it won't last but I'd rather be wrong, of course.

[Randall Flagg]

How many goals has Girgensons scored, assisted by Eichel, or vice versa? Sure, the advance stats indicate, in a very limited sampling, that Girgs didn't seem to weight Eichel down. They haven't actually produced anything together, and maybe it's because they didn't get an extended look together, but odds are a guy who hasn't shown much offensively isn't going to snap to it on Eichel's left.

 

Let's give him a shot on Eichel's wing. I'll gladly eat crow if he puts up numbers. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

I agreed only that I'd like to see him get a chance there. But what do I expect from it? I don't expect anything. My guess is it won't last but I'd rather be wrong, of course.

I don't remember but in game 1 of the experiment it was 2, and we call it a "limited sampling" that is the same number of minutes of Eichel with Kane last season which we seem to have no problem drawing conclusions one way or another from. When they were on the ice together the Buffalo Sabres scored more and allowed less than  they do when Jack has someone else on his LW. 

 

Again, we don't need ZEMGUS to be the one scoring, just like Crosby can win Art Rosses with grinding 30 point left wingers who complement his play-style perfectly.

 

And besides we're sticking golden boy Sam Reinhart on the other side, he's good for 60 points I'm reading all over Sabres-internet so I'm not worried at all 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[Thorny]

Girgs played with Eichel as much as Kane did?

 

People talk about Nylander there because he actually has the base talent to keep up. Haven't seen it from someone like Girgs to this point, at the very least aside from the rare spurt.

 

Who did Crosby play with consistently that only had 30 points?

 

Dupuis, Kunitz, Guentzel, all these guys are well above that.

I don't remember but in game 1 of the experiment it was 2, and

we call it a "limited sampling" that is the same number of minutes of Eichel with Kane last season which we seem to have no problem drawing conclusions one way or another from. When they were on the ice together the Buffalo Sabres scored more and allowed less than  they do when Jack has someone else on his LW. 

Again, we don't need ZEMGUS to be the one scoring, just like Crosby can win Art Rosses with grinding 30 point left wingers who complement his play-style perfectly.

And besides we're sticking golden boy Sam Reinhart on the other side, he's good for 60 points I'm reading all over Sabres-internet so I'm not worried at all

 

Like I says, I'm good with giving it a shot. We can agree on that. I just don't think it is going to be a revelation.

 

I fully appreciate that I'm selling Girgensons in what is a buy-low situation. Completely influenced by his putrid performance under Bylsma. But, there you have it. Maybe if he would have shown SOMETHING last season. We'll see, this year.

[Randall Flagg]

Girgs played with Eichel as much as Kane did?

 

People talk about Nylander there because he actually has the base talent to keep up. Haven't seen it from someone like Girgs to this point, at the very least aside from the rare spurt.

 

Who did Crosby play with consistently that only had 30 points?

 

Dupuis, Kunitz, Guentzel, all these guys are well above that.

 

Like I says, I'm good with giving it a shot. We can agree on that. I just don't think it is going to be a revelation.

 

I fully appreciate that I'm selling Girgensons in what is a buy-low situation. Completely influenced by his putrid performance under Bylsma. But, there you have it. Maybe if he would have shown SOMETHING last season. We'll see, this year.

The Girg Eich 15-16 sample size is 258 minutes and Jack Kane from 16-17 is like 4 minutes more. 

 

Kunitz was a 29 point player two years ago during Crosby's first Conn Smythe season (I still don't know why they hung onto him so long)

 

It's tough putting the stretches together because of a lack of running websites right now, but in Jack's rookie year, when he scored 56 points in 81 games, he had a 7 game stretch with Zemgus in which he put up 7 points, and then 6 games later they were put together again and Jack had 5 points in 5 games. Then later during another five game stretch Jack had 3 points. Then towards the year Jack had a 3 game stretch with Zemgus with 2 points. So that was 17 points in 20 games, a much higher rate than Jack's season overall. Zemgus had 9 points in those 20 games, a pace much higher than he had otherwise as well. The two worked well together visually and it made sense stylistically, so naturally we did nothing of the sort the next season. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[rakish]

What I have:

Eichel in 2015 14.99/gm 1214 even strength min 1.73 points per 60

with Girgensons 265 even strength min, 2.26 points per 60

with Reinhart  395 even strength min, 1.22 pp60

with Kane 435 es min,  1.24 pp60

with Moulson 198 es min, 2.42 pp60

with Bailey 25 es min, 2.4 pp60

 

Eichel in 2016 16.26/gm 992 even strength min, 2.00 pp60

with Girg 40.6 es min, 0 pp60

with Reinhart 550 es min, 1.86 pp60

with Kane 287 es min, 2.51 pp60

with Moulson 196 es min, 1.94 pp60

with Bailey 22 es min, 10.74 pp60