Bucky tears into Pegulas — "At what point does the honeymoon end?"

[Doohickie]

has jack squat to do with what they do, or don't do, as billionaire owners of our beloved pro sports franchises.

 

Was it harder for Jack to do squats with a high ankle sprain?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Didn't the Buffalo Bisons win the Calder Trophy in their last year of existence before the Sabres came into town?

 

Maybe they just should have iced that team as the Sabres and just changed the uniforms.  We may have had our first cup in year one.

[Guest]

I think Bucky is just venting. He knows there is nothing the average fan or he can do but vent. PSE owns the teams and like with anything else it's a learning curve. It took years for Arthur Blank to get the right people to run the Falcons here in the Atl, but he has figured it out and so will the Pegulas. So vent away Bucky. Join us here and you'll see some excellent insight as well as venting.

 

The honeymoon isn't over because PSE has done more to improve downtown Buffalo and bring major events to town then anyone maybe ever. We also know the without PSE or someone like them, smaller cities like Buffalo are always in danger of losing their major sports teams. I think we'd rather suffer with our teams then without them.

 

As to the tank, Bucky is a fool. He didn't like the tank, we get it. However, what was the logically alternative? Would we have Jack, the second best young forward in hockey or Ristolainen, also one of the best young D in the NHL without it?

 

He seems to think you can easily rebuild on the fly. In the back of his mind he thinks we could have re-tooled like the post lockout team. That team got lucky. Regier hit on some late round gems (Miller, Kotalik and Campbell) stole two top players in trade (Drury and Briere) and then added some draftees, mostly from the 2nd rd (Roy & Pommers) with one elite player (Vanek). How long did that up tick last? 2 seasons? If you want to build a long-term successful team, like LA, Pitt and Chi, you have to get talent from the top part of the draft. From those picks you get a core and then supplemented with outside talent to fill needs.

 

Jack, Sam, Risto and hopefully Nylander are that high end core. ROR, KO, and Lehner are the major supplements so far. Now if GMTM can just find a defense (something he needed to do this season as well ), maybe just maybe, he can make Bucky eat his words at least as to the Sabres sooner then later.

Edited March 27, 2017 by yse325

[PASabreFan]

Didn't the Buffalo Bisons win the Calder Trophy in their last year of existence before the Sabres came into town?

 

Maybe they just should have iced that team as the Sabres and just changed the uniforms.  We may have had our first cup in year one.

Which reminds me that I discovered, and posted on here, that Rick was doing the Bisons games that year, but only the road games. The Bisons won the Calder on the road, begging the question as to whether there's audio of Rick calling a Buffalo hockey championship floating around out there.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Which reminds me that I discovered, and posted on here, that Rick was doing the Bisons games that year, but only the road games. The Bisons won the Calder on the road, begging the question as to whether there's audio of Rick calling a Buffalo hockey championship floating around out there.

 

Fred Shero coached that Bison championship team ...  :ph34r:

[PASabreFan]

But I can't look at what the Pegulas have done with the Bills and Sabres and declare that anyone else could have done any better.

OSP would have done it better. He's the one who actually saved the franchise, had them close to a Cup in, ahem, three years and in the playoffs the last two years he owned them. So if Goli, a middling owner, and Larry Quinn, a real estate broker or something, could do it, it's not a huge leap to think that there are many other prospective owners out there who could do it better than TP has done it. This is exactly what Bucky is talking about, by the way. The opposite of fear and loathing of the wealthy.

Fred Shero coached that Bison championship team ...  :ph34r:

I could be talking out my butt, but I believe Punch wanted Fred Shero at some point, but he went to Philly instead.

[Sabel79]

OSP would have done it better. He's the one who actually saved the franchise, had them close to a Cup in, ahem, three years and in the playoffs the last two years he owned them. So if Goli, a middling owner, and Larry Quinn, a real estate broker or something, could do it, it's not a huge leap to think that there are many other prospective owners out there who could do it better than TP has done it. This is exactly what Bucky is talking about, by the way. The opposite of fear and loathing of the wealthy.

 

Sigh.  I know you're begging for a response here, so I'll leave it at this. The Knox family ran out of money.  The Rigas family never actually had any (real) money (of their own).  Gary Bettman, for all his many faults, kept the team in Buffalo, and found a local buyer in OSP, who effectively house-flipped the franchise, for a nice return on his investment (without any of that putting money into it stuff in between).  You remember how that shining period of success you point out ended. 

[PASabreFan]

Sigh.  I know you're begging for a response here, so I'll leave it at this. The Knox family ran out of money.  The Rigas family never actually had any (real) money (of their own).  Gary Bettman, for all his many faults, kept the team in Buffalo, and found a local buyer in OSP, who effectively house-flipped the franchise, for a nice return on his investment (without any of that putting money into it stuff in between).  You remember how that shining period of success you point out ended. 

Not begging for a response. It's a legitimate position. Doohickie (and a lot of others) doesn't think we could possibly have it any better than we have it now, and I'm just pointing out you only have to look as far as the last owner. It's a not a high bar to hurdle, by the way. How did it end? Perennial, and very flawed, playoff teams, one of which won the division. AKA The Glory Days.

Edited March 27, 2017 by PASabreFan

[pi2000]

Bucky is an idiot.    

 

We're not even 2 seasons removed from fielding one of (if not the) worst team in NHL history.   

[Doohickie]

OSP would have done it better. He's the one who actually saved the franchise, had them close to a Cup in, ahem, three years and in the playoffs the last two years he owned them. So if Goli, a middling owner, and Larry Quinn, a real estate broker or something, could do it, it's not a huge leap to think that there are many other prospective owners out there who could do it better than TP has done it. This is exactly what Bucky is talking about, by the way. The opposite of fear and loathing of the wealthy.

I could be talking out my butt, but I believe Punch wanted Fred Shero at some point, but he went to Philly instead.

 

OSP?

[PASabreFan]

OSP?

=Goli

[Doohickie]

Yeah, I figured that out from context, but what does it stand for?

[SwampD]

Yeah, I figured that out from context, but what does it stand for?

http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/24487-we-need-a-sabrespace-glossary/?p=885836

[PromoTheRobot]

Sometimes I wish the Bills and Sabres would just leave town already, rather than read or listen to the endless pissing and moaning about them.

[Sabel79]

Not begging for a response. It's a legitimate position. Doohickie (and a lot of others) doesn't think we could possibly have it any better than we have it now, and I'm just pointing out you only have to look as far as the last owner. It's a not a high bar to hurdle, by the way. How did it end? Perennial, and very flawed, playoff teams, one of which won the division. AKA The Glory Days.

There are so many more moving pieces than who the owner was at any given time. Darcy was amazing at painting dross gold for so many years. Once he was given actual gold he gave it all to Leino and even lesser lights. And turned the rest to lead. Things went further south than when nobody was about to get paid. TPegs bears responsibility for that in the big picture, sure. But trusting a GM who had been doing so much with so little for so long isn't the craziest thing in the world, given the circumstances. Hindsight is wonderful.

[TrueBlueGED]

You really don't ever hear that someone is grateful to the Pegulas for the teams still being here? You really don't ever here that we should just shut up and be grateful that we still have a team here regardless of how bad they are? (psst, we heard it in this very thread)

 

I hear it all the time. I don't need Bucky to show me proof that it exists. I know it exists.

 

His article is asking us how much longer are those that aren't on message boards still going to have that sentiment,… how much longer are those people going to value throwing their kids on an icebike downtown over rooting for a winning team.

 

It's a valid question.

 

I'm not going to say it's wholly invalid, but it's a pretty extremist position. People can both be grateful the Pegulas didn't pack up the Bills like Mark Davis did with the Raiders, appreciate their contribution to the continued growth of the waterfront, and also be very dissatisfied with the product both teams are producing. He's creating a dichotomy where one need not exist--indeed, I'd say "ice bikes" and team performance are inherently separate issues that he's trying to unite for the sake of...actually I really don't know why. In Bucky's world, you're lobbing molotov cocktails through Harborcenter windows, or you're still a sparkly-eyed teen spending your time daydreaming about the Pegulas as deities. I don't especially care whether he refuses to, or is incapable of, thinking about the issues in a more nuanced matter--I fully reject his evaluation of things either way.

[PASabreFan]

There are so many more moving pieces than who the owner was at any given time. Darcy was amazing at painting dross gold for so many years. Once he was given actual gold he gave it all to Leino and even lesser lights. And turned the rest to lead. Things went further south than when nobody was about to get paid. TPegs bears responsibility for that in the big picture, sure. But trusting a GM who had been doing so much with so little for so long isn't the craziest thing in the world, given the circumstances. Hindsight is wonderful.

I'm not so sure the mistakes of the 2011 offseason belong to Darcy. Bucky's column today had a link to John Vogl's story on Pegula's introductory presser, and it includes a quote from Darcy: "It's a big opportunity. It's an opportunity, and I think it's one that we have to responsibly seize on." Responsibly.

 

That day, Terry went on to reveal (at the News editorial board, I believe) that the plan Darcy originally submitted to him was "too sublime" and he made Darcy rework it. Not sure what sense of the word sublime he meant, but I took it to mean the plan wasn't bold enough.

 

I think you're half right. They didn't seem like Regier moves. And I don't think they were.

[Sabel79]

I'm not so sure the mistakes of the 2011 offseason belong to Darcy. Bucky's column today had a link to John Vogl's story on Pegula's introductory presser, and it includes a quote from Darcy: "It's a big opportunity. It's an opportunity, and I think it's one that we have to responsibly seize on." Responsibly.

 

That day, Terry went on to reveal (at the News editorial board, I believe) that the plan Darcy originally submitted to him was "too sublime" and he made Darcy rework it. Not sure what sense of the word sublime he meant, but I took it to mean the plan wasn't bold enough.

 

I think you're half right. They didn't seem like Regier moves. And I don't think they were.

There is no sense in which the word sublime makes sense there if you're right. Or at all.

 

I'm left shaking my head and paraphrasing the "Monorail" episode of the Simpsons (23 of the most sublime moments of comedy ever committed to video): "You know, Darcy Regeir with money is a bit like a mule with a spinning wheel. Nobody knows how he got it and danged if he knows what to do with it."

[SwampD]

I'm not going to say it's wholly invalid, but it's a pretty extremist position. People can both be grateful the Pegulas didn't pack up the Bills like Mark Davis did with the Raiders, appreciate their contribution to the continued growth of the waterfront, and also be very dissatisfied with the product both teams are producing. He's creating a dichotomy where one need not exist--indeed, I'd say "ice bikes" and team performance are inherently separate issues that he's trying to unite for the sake of...actually I really don't know why. In Bucky's world, you're lobbing molotov cocktails through Harborcenter windows, or you're still a sparkly-eyed teen spending your time daydreaming about the Pegulas as deities. I don't especially care whether he refuses to, or is incapable of, thinking about the issues in a more nuanced matter--I fully reject his evaluation of things either way.

What in the world is a newspaper sports columnist supposed to write about if he can't write about the owner of two crappy franchises being given a pass because he rebuilt the clock tower in the town square?

 

What world we live in.

 

Agree with it or not, those two issues are linked.

[Guest]

As the heart of Oakland got ripped out again as the Radiers move to LV, just remember without PSE, a move like this could have happened to us also.

 

Remember BonJovi wanted to move the Bills to Toronto.

[That Aud Smell]

I'm not going to say it's wholly invalid, but it's a pretty extremist position. People can both be grateful the Pegulas didn't pack up the Bills like Mark Davis did with the Raiders, appreciate their contribution to the continued growth of the waterfront, and also be very dissatisfied with the product both teams are producing. He's creating a dichotomy where one need not exist--indeed, I'd say "ice bikes" and team performance are inherently separate issues that he's trying to unite for the sake of...actually I really don't know why. In Bucky's world, you're lobbing molotov cocktails through Harborcenter windows, or you're still a sparkly-eyed teen spending your time daydreaming about the Pegulas as deities. I don't especially care whether he refuses to, or is incapable of, thinking about the issues in a more nuanced matter--I fully reject his evaluation of things either way.

This so great, and so spot on.

 

But, yeah. NFW Bucky is capable of -- or, if he is, would engage in through a column -- this level of thought. Same probably goes for most local hack types, as was noted in reply to you.

[SwampD]

I'm not going to say it's wholly invalid, but it's a pretty extremist position. People can both be grateful the Pegulas didn't pack up the Bills like Mark Davis did with the Raiders, appreciate their contribution to the continued growth of the waterfront, and also be very dissatisfied with the product both teams are producing. He's creating a dichotomy where one need not exist--indeed, I'd say "ice bikes" and team performance are inherently separate issues that he's trying to unite for the sake of...actually I really don't know why. In Bucky's world, you're lobbing molotov cocktails through Harborcenter windows, or you're still a sparkly-eyed teen spending your time daydreaming about the Pegulas as deities. I don't especially care whether he refuses to, or is incapable of, thinking about the issues in a more nuanced matter--I fully reject his evaluation of things either way.

I hate to revisit this, but here's what he said and the thesis of the article.

 

 

Buffalo fans are left in an internal wrestling match, a conflict between civic appreciation and competitive disappointment. Do they thank the Pegulas for purchasing the Bills and Sabres or condemn them for their roles in both teams becoming perennial losers? At what point does the honeymoon end?

You hate Bucky. That's fine, but that's a far cry from lobbing Molotov cocktails. Seems like the only extremist position here is yours.

[Sabel79]

It's entirely possible and indeed reasonable to be appreciative of what Terry and co. have done in the big picture while also wanting the team to be better. 

 

I don't see the point in demanding some sort of atonement on ownership's part for past moves intended to improve the team (contracts, hiring coaches and so on) that were merely unwise, as opposed to prior ownership setting fire to the roster to save a buck.  This will forever be the difference between Terry and OSP, and why Terry gets so much rope from so many (me included, even if I shake my head over a number of things). 

 

Whether it works, well.  Terry definitely wrote a few metaphorical checks with his mouth that ended up not being cashed.  As opposed to the actual checks which were written and most definitely cashed in bulk.  I suppose we shall see what goes on from here, but who knows?

[PASabreFan]

As the heart of Oakland got ripped out again as the Radiers move to LV, just remember without PSE, a move like this could have happened to us also.

 

Remember BonJovi wanted to move the Bills to Toronto.

You're limiting this to the Bills side, right? Because I don't recall feeling any danger that the Sabres were going to move. (Except in 2002. Remember, Terry?)

There is no sense in which the word sublime makes sense there if you're right. Or at all.

 

I'm left shaking my head and paraphrasing the "Monorail" episode of the Simpsons (23 of the most sublime moments of comedy ever committed to video): "You know, Darcy Regeir with money is a bit like a mule with a spinning wheel. Nobody knows how he got it and danged if he knows what to do with it."

There's more, of course. (See the trial thread.) Terry went on the radio and all but admitted that the 2011 offseason moves were his. "It was my decision." "I wanted to do it." He was reacting to some criticism from other owners about how freely he was spending. And one of the all-time smoking gun, circumstantial evidence Tweets: his daughter recalled how much her dad liked Ehrhoff during the 2011 playoffs.

What in the world is a newspaper sports columnist supposed to write about if he can't write about the owner of two crappy franchises being given a pass because he rebuilt the clock tower in the town square?

 

What world we live in.

 

Agree with it or not, those two issues are linked.

Another way of looking at it is what would Sabres fans be saying about him right now if he had stayed true to his word and not gotten into real estate development and the NFL?

[Sabel79]

Of all the contracts handed out in that silly spree, Ehrhoff was probably the most defensible.