Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) That only applies if we are still in the race. If we are already out and Kuli and Fanson aren't coming back I don't think keeping them around helps build expectations. Disagree. Ice the best team you can and get them used to winning now. I don't need a 2nd round pick to feel better about Kulikov not resigning. I need him helping these kids expect to win on the ice every night this season, whether we are out of the playoff picture or not. Edited January 29, 2017 by We've Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Disagree. Ice the best team you can and get them used to winning now. I don't need a 2nd round pick to feel better about Kulikov not resigning. I need him helping these kids expect to win on the ice every night this season, whether we are out of the playoff picture or not. I saw enough heroic races to 9th under Darcy to know this a mismanagement of assets. How many times were we encouraged by a strong finish to end the season only to see the team start the next season rudderless and struggling. Meaningless wins at the end of the season after we've been eliminated do nothing but give false hope to fans and a crappier draft pick. Sometimes you have to listen to Kenny Rogers and know when to fold 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Disagree. Ice the best team you can and get them used to winning now. I don't need a 2nd round pick to feel better about Kulikov not resigning. I need him helping these kids expect to win on the ice every night this season, whether we are out of the playoff picture or not. Agree. Also, not convinced that he won't be re-signed after the Vegas draft. It seems that it often takes the bulk of a season for a vet D-man to settle in w/ a new team. Considering the injury he's been battling, not shocking he hasn't jelled into the lineup yet. Let him play w/ Ristolainen the rest of this year, so those 2 can hit the ground running. Bogosian seems to play well w/ McCabe (& McCabe typically plays well w/ any partner). If Bogosian isn't claimed by Vegas, I am fi e w/ 60 games of those 4 as the top 4. Franson, Fedun, Guhle, &/or other can slide into the 4th slot while Bogo is inevitably out 20 games next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 I saw enough heroic races to 9th under Darcy to know this a mismanagement of assets. How many times were we encouraged by a strong finish to end the season only to see the team start the next season rudderless and struggling. Meaningless wins at the end of the season after we've been eliminated do nothing but give false hope to fans and a crappier draft pick. Sometimes you have to listen to Kenny Rogers and know when to fold 'em. I'm not talking about a heroic race to 9th. I'm talking about instilling an expectation of winning on a young and developing group of kids. I think mini-tanking on a group of core 19-20 yrs olds is a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 I'm not talking about a heroic race to 9th. I'm talking about instilling an expectation of winning on a young and developing group of kids. I think mini-tanking on a group of core 19-20 yrs olds is a bad idea. There's a big difference between mini tanking and being a seller at the deadline. Thanks to league parity almost nobody is mathematically eliminated before the deadline but we should know in the weeks leading up to it if we've got a legitimate chance to make the playoffs or not. If we look to be on the outside looking in the smart move if to sell off expiring contracts like Kulikov, Franson, and Gionta. As Murray proved with Moulson and McMormick shipping them off doesn't mean we can't bring them back next season when the games matter once again. In the grand scheme of things having Kulikov for an extra 2-3 weeks at the tail end of another lost season does nothing to affect the expectation of winning for the young players. If it does we have bigger problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 There's a big difference between mini tanking and being a seller at the deadline. Thanks to league parity almost nobody is mathematically eliminated before the deadline but we should know in the weeks leading up to it if we've got a legitimate chance to make the playoffs or not. If we look to be on the outside looking in the smart move if to sell off expiring contracts like Kulikov, Franson, and Gionta. As Murray proved with Moulson and McMormick shipping them off doesn't mean we can't bring them back next season when the games matter once again. In the grand scheme of things having Kulikov for an extra 2-3 weeks at the tail end of another lost season does nothing to affect the expectation of winning for the young players. If it does we have bigger problems. How is that different from mini-tanking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Murray better not be a 'seller' at the deadline. That's all there is to it. The Sabres were there and did that. I hated it. We are now at the building point. If a 'hockey trade' happens that is fine and it's what I would want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 How is that different from mini-tanking? It's not gutting the team. It's selling off expiring contracts that are only guaranteed to be on the team for another 2-3 weeks anyway. How is keeping those guys (who obviously aren't that good anyway or perhaps we wouldn't be in the position to be deadline sellers to begin with) to run out the clock on the season going to instill some expectation of winning? It's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 It's not gutting the team. It's selling off expiring contracts that are only guaranteed to be on the team for another 2-3 weeks anyway. How is keeping those guys (who obviously aren't that good anyway or perhaps we wouldn't be in the position to be deadline sellers to begin with) to run out the clock on the season going to instill some expectation of winning? It's not. Icing the best team you can does instill an expectation of winning. Moving good, or at least capable, players and icing more COR's and Casey Nelsons results in no expectation of winning. This team is too young for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 It's not gutting the team. It's selling off expiring contracts that are only guaranteed to be on the team for another 2-3 weeks anyway. How is keeping those guys (who obviously aren't that good anyway or perhaps we wouldn't be in the position to be deadline sellers to begin with) to run out the clock on the season going to instill some expectation of winning? It's not. It was a hockey trade that brought us Kulikov. So, I would be very surprised if our GM then sold his expiring contract off at the deadline. What a horrible message that would send to the other players and fans. It would show me that Murray has no idea what he is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kas23 Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Disagree. It is time to build a culture with bigger expectations. You don't do that when you are selling. What if management doesn't see them as part of the culture they want to build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 What if management doesn't see them as part of the culture they want to build? Why would he have traded for them? I'm speaking specifically of the routine of the last 7 years of moving pending FA's for 2-5 rd picks. Actual hockey trades are different. A guy that doesn't figure in would be a hockey trade, I could see Ennis being in this category. Gionta and Kuli were brought here becuase GMTM wanted them on this team. Moving them now for baubles and bringing up guys who have no business being here is not helping the development of our core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Icing the best team you can does instill an expectation of winning. Moving good, or at least capable, players and icing more COR's and Casey Nelsons results in no expectation of winning. This team is too young for that. It's a couple of weeks at the end of an already lost season. You're logic is flawed as hell because there's always a balance between the present and the future. Using your logic the kids are so fragile we should gut every prospect in our system who isn't currently helping the Sabres and go all in on winning right now. Gotta instill that desire to win right? Even with 3 weeks left in the season where it's already clear they won't make the playoffs. They won't do that because it would ve stupid to, just like it's stupid to let UFA's walk for nothing when you're out of the playoff hunt when you could get something for them at the deadline. It was a hockey trade that brought us Kulikov. So, I would be very surprised if our GM then sold his expiring contract off at the deadline. What a horrible message that would send to the other players and fans. It would show me that Murray has no idea what he is doing. It was a hockey trade in the offseason not at the trade deadline when he's a few weeks away from having the ability to walk with no compensation. That's the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Just so everyone is clear, the trade deadline is nearly 6 weeks prior to the end of the regular season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 It's a couple of weeks at the end of an already lost season. You're logic is flawed as hell because there's always a balance between the present and the future. Using your logic the kids are so fragile we should gut every prospect in our system who isn't currently helping the Sabres and go all in on winning right now. Gotta instill that desire to win right? Even with 3 weeks left in the season where it's already clear they won't make the playoffs. They won't do that because it would ve stupid to, just like it's stupid to let UFA's walk for nothing when you're out of the playoff hunt when you could get something for them at the deadline. It was a hockey trade in the offseason not at the trade deadline when he's a few weeks away from having the ability to walk with no compensation. That's the difference. It ISN'T a couple of weeks. It's SIX weeks. Over a month of letting the kids know it's just another wasted season that winning doesn't matter. Even if Murray knows he'll get Kulikov back next year if he wants him, the negatives of telling the kids not to care will outweigh the benefits of a late 2nd round pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Useful defencemen are at a premium at the deadline. Kulikov and Franson will generate worthwhile returns. Unless we are in the thick of the race, we have to take the best offer. The question is, what defines "in the race?" Four points out? Six? I don't want to trade Kane. The only way I consider it is if it is for that elusive puck-moving defenceman and I would be very surprised to see that kind of trade happen at the deadline. With Gionta, you do whatever he wants. Gionta does not want to be traded but he expects to be. I'll float CBJ and MTL as the most likely of locations. It ISN'T a couple of weeks. It's SIX weeks. Over a month of letting the kids know it's just another wasted season that winning doesn't matter. Even if Murray knows he'll get Kulikov back next year if he wants him, the negatives of telling the kids not to care will outweigh the benefits of a late 2nd round pick. These guys are professionals. They all know if you are a UFA at a trade deadline you are available. If Murray wants to send a message then he needs to sign Kulikov but it's unlikely he does that because it's one more player he has to protect. The variables to this season are increased due to the expansion draft. UFAs should have a pretty good value because they won't be on rosters after the season. A GM who maximizes the value of that pick will make a perfectly strong statement about winning in the future. If Murray pulls a player back in on a trade at this point he's going to have to choose who to protect. No player on that team believes they are top of the mix right now. It could be that Kulikov doesn't go anywhere simply because the Sabres don't want to pull up another player for this season. Gio, in my opinion, is a solid bet to return on a 1 year if they wanted him next season. Kulikov, not as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 It's a couple of weeks at the end of an already lost season. You're logic is flawed as hell because there's always a balance between the present and the future. Using your logic the kids are so fragile we should gut every prospect in our system who isn't currently helping the Sabres and go all in on winning right now. Gotta instill that desire to win right? Even with 3 weeks left in the season where it's already clear they won't make the playoffs. They won't do that because it would ve stupid to, just like it's stupid to let UFA's walk for nothing when you're out of the playoff hunt when you could get something for them at the deadline. It was a hockey trade in the offseason not at the trade deadline when he's a few weeks away from having the ability to walk with no compensation. That's the difference. Or they could do something amazing and play the season out to win and then re-sign guys. You know some teams still do that, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Disagree. Ice the best team you can and get them used to winning now. I don't need a 2nd round pick to feel better about Kulikov not resigning. I need him helping these kids expect to win on the ice every night this season, whether we are out of the playoff picture or not. Or they could do something amazing and play the season out to win and then re-sign guys. You know some teams still do that, right? My point was you've already got a feel about whether Kulikov is interested in coming back. If he's already decided to move on, he's going to be sending out bad vibes in the room - mentally checked out, not giving his all, sending signals about greener pastures. That's a worse message for the young players than trading for an asset that can be used to get Kuli's replacement. You don't have to wait four years to use that asset, you could do something like like flipping it at the draft the way the Canes added Sekera or we added Gorges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) My point was you've already got a feel about whether Kulikov is interested in coming back. If he's already decided to move on, he's going to be sending out bad vibes in the room - mentally checked out, not giving his all, sending signals about greener pastures. That's a worse message for the young players than trading for an asset that can be used to get Kuli's replacement. You don't have to wait four years to use that asset, you could do something like like flipping it at the draft the way the Canes added Sekera or we added Gorges. I don't see a guy needing a contact checking out. Leino aside of course. Edited January 29, 2017 by We've Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 It was a hockey trade in the offseason not at the trade deadline when he's a few weeks away from having the ability to walk with no compensation. That's the difference. My point was Murray traded a good player for another good player that more suited what he was looking for in his D. He knew Kulikov was going to be an UFA after this season. I can't see how he makes that trade if Kulikov was not in his long-term plans. I bet Kulikov is re-signed long before July 1st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Or they could do something amazing and play the season out to win and then re-sign guys. You know some teams still do that, right? If they have a good chance to make the playoffs I want them to be buyers and fight like hell to make it. If it looks like there's too many points to make up I have zero interest in seeing a heroic run to 9th or 10th. Momentum doesn't carry over from season to season and it's stupid to let UFA's walk for nothing. I have zero interest in moral victories once the team is out of the playoff race. On a side note, I didn't realize the season didn't end until 6 weeks after the trade deadline. I still think we should be sellers when it comes to pending UFAs if there's too much ground to make up though. My point was Murray traded a good player for another good player that more suited what he was looking for in his D. He knew Kulikov was going to be an UFA after this season. I can't see how he makes that trade if Kulikov was not in his long-term plans. I bet Kulikov is re-signed long before July 1st. Once the trade deadline passes he can't be re-signed until the offseason I believe. If Murray thinks he can re-sign him the smart move (assuming we're out of the playoff race at that point) is to trade him for more assets and re-sign him without having to protect him from Vegas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) If they have a good chance to make the playoffs I want them to be buyers and fight like hell to make it. If it looks like there's too many points to make up I have zero interest in seeing a heroic run to 9th or 10th. Momentum doesn't carry over from season to season and it's stupid to let UFA's walk for nothing. I have zero interest in moral victories once the team is out of the playoff race. On a side note, I didn't realize the season didn't end until 6 weeks after the trade deadline. I still think we should be sellers when it comes to pending UFAs if there's too much ground to make up though. Once the trade deadline passes he can't be re-signed until the offseason I believe. If Murray thinks he can re-sign him the smart move (assuming we're out of the playoff race at that point) is to trade him for more assets and re-sign him without having to protect him from Vegas. Who is using heroic runs, moral victories, and momentum as an argument? Did you quote the wrong post? Edited January 30, 2017 by We've Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 My point was Murray traded a good player for another good player that more suited what he was looking for in his D. He knew Kulikov was going to be an UFA after this season. I can't see how he makes that trade if Kulikov was not in his long-term plans. I bet Kulikov is re-signed long before July 1st. Once the trade deadline passes he can't be re-signed until the offseason I believe. If Murray thinks he can re-sign him the smart move (assuming we're out of the playoff race at that point) is to trade him for more assets and re-sign him without having to protect him from Vegas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Playoffs, or not, I want the Sabres to go out and try to win every game played. I do not want them selling any assets, even if it makes sense to some. I have had more than enough of that BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Who is using heroic runs, moral victories, and momentum as an argument? Did you quote the wrong post? Probably so. My bad. All the posts are starting to blend together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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