Grigorenko

[qwksndmonster]

Please, tell me! What are these indicators? Why can't anybody give me a legitimate answer? 

 

Hodgson scored 20 goals last year on what WAS the worst offensive team in 78 years. 

Girgensons would have scored 20 goals this year on what WILL BE the worst offensive team in 79 years. 

 

Do you have any other superior offensive talent on this roster that was producing before Nolan that suddenly stopped when he got here? 

He puts grinders on the PP.  He confuses effort with results.  He'd rather bench a player and not talk to them for a couple weeks rather than change his approach.  He's got one way, Ted's way.

 

And calm down, JJ, you sound like a young Liger.

[TrueBlueGED]

Please, tell me! What are these indicators? Why can't anybody give me a legitimate answer? 

 

Hodgson scored 20 goals last year on what WAS the worst offensive team in 78 years. 

Girgensons would have scored 20 goals this year on what WILL BE the worst offensive team in 79 years. 

 

Do you have any other superior offensive talent on this roster that was producing before Nolan that suddenly stopped when he got here? 

 

1) Many of us have been giving examples, you're just choosing to ignore them. 

 

2) Maybe not "superior" offensive talents, but both Moulson and Hodgson have fallen off a cliff production-wise. Who has gotten better? The only one I could point to is Girgensons, but given his age and the trajectory he was on in his career before Nolan arrived, I have a really hard time attributing that to Nolan's coaching.

[Doohickie]

Again, is there any proof that Nolan cannot be a qualified coach with an offensively talented team? I keep hearing that he's not the one to move forward with, and he will try to turn gifted players into gritty two-way players. But is there something to base that on? Can it be that he just plays that game now because he knows it's the only way to squeak out a few wins with this particular roster?

 

You hear all the time about players who make those around them better being preferable to players who are made better only if they have the right players around them. I think the same can be said of a coach: You want a coach that will make the players on the team better (as a group), not a coach that is "qualified" (whatever that means) because they've been given good players.

 

So far, Nolan has not been making the players on the team better.

 

However, I still think this may all be a charade for the purposes of the tank. I think he will be gone next year, but I also think there's a chance he'll still be here and will be a very different coach than what we've seen this year.

 

(We should probably start a Nolan thread)

Another one?

[MattPie]

1) Many of us have been giving examples, you're just choosing to ignore them. 

 

2) Maybe not "superior" offensive talents, but both Moulson and Hodgson have fallen off a cliff production-wise. Who has gotten better? The only one I could point to is Girgensons, but given his age and the trajectory he was on in his career before Nolan arrived, I have a really hard time attributing that to Nolan's coaching.

 

Ennis, maybe, but mostly because he's playing Nolan's game and getting time.

[dudacek]

Please, tell me! What are these indicators? Why can't anybody give me a legitimate answer? 

 

Hodgson scored 20 goals last year on what WAS the worst offensive team in 78 years. 

Girgensons would have scored 20 goals this year on what WILL BE the worst offensive team in 79 years. 

 

Do you have any other superior offensive talent on this roster that was producing before Nolan that suddenly stopped when he got here? 

 

Besides Hodgson? Matt Moulson is the most obvious. Chris Stewart's numbers were down. Brian Gionta's are down. These guys should average 20. None of them will reach that. As well as Ennis has played his numbers will be similar to last year's.

 

Girgorenko and Reinhart are a tougher call given that neither is likely ready. But they are a couple offensively gifted youngsters who Teddy never gave an opportunity to play to their strengths.

 

And the plumbers who did get ice time? Haven't seen any scoring breakthroughs from Flynn, or Mitchell.

 

Girgensons is about the only player who has increased his output and, despite all his power play time, he's only scored once on the PP.

 

I know, I know, all these players are because the other players are . It can't have anything to do with how they are being utilized.

[JJFIVEOH]

He puts grinders on the PP.  He confuses effort with results.  He'd rather bench a player and not talk to them for a couple weeks rather than change his approach.  He's got one way, Ted's way.

 

And calm down, JJ, you sound like a young Liger.

Settle down princess, I'm perfectly calm. He doesn't confuse effort with results..... this team barely has the ability to put up results. The ones that can are the ones that show effort. Most, if not all his benching have been warranted. If Grigorenko is getting demoted for repeatedly showing lack of effort, maybe he's really not showing any effort. Seems rather odd that Nolan would focus all his negativity on one player for no reason. I've heard Grigorenko has shown lack of effort in Rochester as well. 

 

So basically you have nothing to base on your assumption that Nolan can't deal with elite NHL talent. 

[qwksndmonster]

Settle down princess, I'm perfectly calm. He doesn't confuse effort with results..... this team barely has the ability to put up results. The ones that can are the ones that show effort. Most, if not all his benching have been warranted. If Grigorenko is getting demoted for repeatedly showing lack of effort, maybe he's really not showing any effort. Seems rather odd that Nolan would focus all his negativity on one player for no reason. I've heard Grigorenko has shown lack of effort in Rochester as well. 

 

So basically you have nothing to base on your assumption that Nolan can't deal with elite NHL talent. 

I'm glad you think I'm pretty.  And not at all surprised that you missed every well-put point that several posters put forward after your last post.  You can say it over and over and over and over, but I never said that Nolan can't deal with elite NHL talent.  Elite talent is going to work pretty much regardless.

[JJFIVEOH]

Besides Hodgson? Matt Moulson is the most obvious. Chris Stewart's numbers were down. Brian Gionta's are down. These guys should average 20. None of them will reach that. As well as Ennis has played his numbers will be similar to last year's.

 

Girgorenko and Reinhart are a tougher call given that neither is likely ready. But they are a couple offensively gifted youngsters who Teddy never gave an opportunity to play to their strengths.

 

And the plumbers who did get ice time? Haven't seen any scoring breakthroughs from Flynn, or Mitchell.

 

Girgensons is about the only player who has increased his output and, despite all his power play time, he's only scored once on the PP.

 

I know, I know, all these players are ###### because the other players are ######. It can't have anything to do with how they are being utilized.

Stewart was damn close to his career average this year with the Sabres, quite an accomplishment on the worst offensive team in the NHL in 79 years.

 

Moulson needs talent on his line to score. Yes I said it, and it's the correct analysis.

 

Gionta is 36 years old and he's on pace to (PPG) get about 75% of last year's total with Montreal. Considering the team's offensive outputs.......

 

If this team's woes is because Nolan is so bad, man the rest of the hockey world really swung and missed on their analysis of him. 

I'm glad you think I'm pretty.  And not at all surprised that you missed every well-put point that several posters put forward after your last post.  You can say it over and over and over and over, but I never said that Nolan can't deal with elite NHL talent.  Elite talent is going to work pretty much regardless.

I've read those posts and responded accordingly. 

 

I then asked YOU to back up your hypothesis. And I am still waiting on YOUR supporting evidence. "I don't think he can" isn't an answer. 

[darksabre]

Ennis, maybe, but mostly because he's playing Nolan's game and getting time.

If Ennis can play Nolan's game then anyone can and there are no excuses for them not doing so.

[DirtDart]

I love how Lindy was placed on a pedestal for over a decade and people criticized the players for not being good enough.

Then when the team is a steaming pile of garbage for a roster suddenly we're ready to blame coaching. :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone would ever compare Nolan, to Lindy. As much as I love Lindy Ruff, and believe he is a great coach. It was time for a change after all those years.

[JJFIVEOH]

1) Many of us have been giving examples, you're just choosing to ignore them. 

 

2) Maybe not "superior" offensive talents, but both Moulson and Hodgson have fallen off a cliff production-wise. Who has gotten better? The only one I could point to is Girgensons, but given his age and the trajectory he was on in his career before Nolan arrived, I have a really hard time attributing that to Nolan's coaching.

 

The claim is Nolan can't handle this team going forward because he will turn all players into gritty two-way players. (Ironic because for the last three years this place was bitching up a storm because Darcy never focused on getting big, two-way gritty players, but I digress) I asked for the basis of said arguments. The ONLY responses that came back were in reference to current players. I didn't ignore a damn thing you or anybody else said.......... I never got an answer. Big difference. 

 

If I asked you how is it driving a new Corvette, telling me it's not worth it because a Volt is slow doesn't tell me anything and doesn't support your viewpoint. 

[dudacek]

Stewart was damn close to his career average this year with the Sabres, quite an accomplishment on the worst offensive team in the NHL in 79 years.

 

Moulson needs talent on his line to score. Yes I said it, and it's the correct analysis.

 

Gionta is 36 years old and he's on pace to (PPG) get about 75% of last year's total with Montreal. Considering the team's offensive outputs.......

 

If this team's woes is because Nolan is so bad, man the rest of the hockey world really swung and missed on their analysis of him. 

 

The same hockey world that gave him exactly one head coaching job after he was fired nearly 20 years ago? The one that was shocked when Pat Lafontaine brought him back?

 

So, Nolan is doing a good job because players are producing at 2/3rds of their expected levels?

 

Is it your position that talent-wise this is a 40-point collection of talent that Ted has playing well above its head?

[qwksndmonster]

I've read those posts and responded accordingly. 

 

I then asked YOU to back up your hypothesis. And I am still waiting on YOUR supporting evidence. "I don't think he can" isn't an answer. 

Ted is great because everybody "in the hockey world" thinks so is about as feeble as it gets.  Yeesh.  I told you what I think and why, and it's actually based on my own personal observations.  I don't know if it's willful ignorance on your part, or reading comprehension issues.

[Ogre]

Settle down princess, I'm perfectly calm. He doesn't confuse effort with results..... this team barely has the ability to put up results. The ones that can are the ones that show effort. Most, if not all his benching have been warranted. If Grigorenko is getting demoted for repeatedly showing lack of effort, maybe he's really not showing any effort. Seems rather odd that Nolan would focus all his negativity on one player for no reason. I've heard Grigorenko has shown lack of effort in Rochester as well. 

 

So basically you have nothing to base on your assumption that Nolan can't deal with elite NHL talent. 

 I'm sorry. I'd like to know your source that is noting his lack of effort for the Amerks? Where they there when he started a fight to stick up for a team mate? Or the night he received the Ahl player of the week award? Or his hustle to the bench after every shift? Just curious. I consider myself an astute and knowledgeable fellow and I can't remember seeing him lack for anything other than a decent linemate and competent coach in the 26 or so home games I've seen so far.

[JJFIVEOH]

Ted is great because everybody "in the hockey world" thinks so is about as feeble as it gets.  Yeesh.  I told you what I think and why, and it's actually based on my own personal observations.  I don't know if it's willful ignorance on your part, or reading comprehension issues.

 

No, I think it has to do with letting myself get pulled back into your childish, snide world. I apologize for thinking this would be any different. 

[qwksndmonster]

No, I think it has to do with letting myself get pulled back into your childish, snide world. I apologize for thinking this would be any different. 

Apology accepted.

[JJFIVEOH]

The same hockey world that gave him exactly one head coaching job after he was fired nearly 20 years ago? The one that was shocked when Pat Lafontaine brought him back?

 

So, Nolan is doing a good job because players are producing at 2/3rds of their expected levels?

 

Is it your position that talent-wise this is a 40-point collection of talent that Ted has playing well above its head?

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the behind the scenes drama Nolan was notorious for. This team playing at 2/3rds the level is considerable when they only have 50% of the talent of any playoff team. Yes, this team is so bad I think their record is better than it should be. 

[dudacek]

The claim is Nolan can't handle this team going forward because he will turn all players into gritty two-way players. (Ironic because for the last three years this place was bitching up a storm because Darcy never focused on getting big, two-way gritty players, but I digress) I asked for the basis of said arguments. The ONLY responses that came back were in reference to current players. I didn't ignore a damn thing you or anybody else said.......... I never got an answer. Big difference. 

 

If I asked you how is it driving a new Corvette, telling me it's not worth it because a Volt is slow doesn't tell me anything and doesn't support your viewpoint. 

 

I really don't understand this. I have no problem with Nolan's demand for gritty effort. I like it.

And I don't blame Nolan for the Sabres woes. He is a mediocre coach working with a poor roster.

 

My concerns are this: 

* Too many players are underachieving under Nolan: my prime examples are Moulson, Gionta, Stewart, Hodgson — lesser examples are Benny and the Mess.

* With the exception of Zemgus, none of our young guys are improving (Risto, Zadorov, Foligno) or being put in a position to succeed (Grigorenko, Reinhart, Larsson)

* His player usage baffles me at times (Flynn, Meszaros, Gionta on the PP over Zadorov, Grigorenko, Hodgson? Hell it took him a half-year to try Stewart in front of the net). I see Hodgson out there against the Stamkos line. I see Mitchell out there with our goalie pulled.

* His double standards are obvious. He rewards plumbers like Flynn and Mitchell for "effort" while ignoring their (lack of) results. It's a sin if you sit back and watch a play develop, but it's OK to be not good enough, just as long as you "compete."

* In the same vein, he sticks with veterans (Meszaros, Moulson) no matter how poorly they play and benches kids (Grigorenko, Larsson, Zadorov) at their first error.

* We've been outshot drastically virtually every single game and have shown no signs of adjusting our style. Ted's message is simply work harder.

 

Any one of these things can be justified in isolation, but overall it's a troubling picture.

I think Ted is a one-dimensional coach who can only relate to one kind of player. If we give him Hasek in goal and a team of Girgensons, he could challenge for the cup.

 

But I don't think we are rebuilding on that template.

We need a coach who is going to take our young core and maximize their potential.

From what I've seen of Teddy this year, his is not the formula for making it happen and he has shown no signs of adapting his style.

Edited March 10, 2015 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

I really don't understand this. I have no problem with Nolan's demand for gritty effort. I like it.

And I don't blame Nolan for the Sabres woes. He is a mediocre coach working with a poor roster.

 

My concerns are this: 

* Too many players are underachieving under Nolan: my prime examples are Moulson, Gionta, Stewart, Hodgson — lesser examples are Benny and the Mess.

* With the exception of Zemgus, none of our young guys are improving (Risto, Zadorov, Foligno) or being put in a position to succeed (Grigorenko, Reinhart, Larsson)

* His player usage baffles me at times (Flynn, Meszaros, Gionta on the PP over Zadorov, Grigorenko, Hodgson? Hell it took him a half-year to try Stewart in front of the net). I see Hodgson out there against the Stamkos line. I see Mitchell out there with our goalie pulled.

* His double standards are obvious. He rewards plumbers like Flynn and Mitchell for "effort" while ignoring their (lack of) results. It's a sin if you sit back and watch a play develop, but it's OK to be not good enough, just as long as you "compete."

* In the same vein, he sticks with veterans (Meszaros, Moulson) no matter how poorly they play and benches kids (Grigorenko, Larsson, Zadorov) at their first error.

* We've been outshot drastically virtually every single game and have shown no signs of adjusting our style. Ted's message is simply work harder.

 

Any one of these things can be justified in isolation, but overall it's a troubling picture.

I think Ted is a one-dimensional coach who can only relate to one kind of player. If we give him Hasek in goal and a team of Girgensons, he could challenge for the cup.

 

But I don't think we are rebuilding on that template.

We need a coach who is going to take our young core and maximize their potential.

From what I've seen of Teddy this year, his is not the formula for making it happen and he has shown no signs of adapting his style.

 

All hail Dudacek, articulator of grievances!  :worthy:

[Samson's Flow]

I really don't understand this. I have no problem with Nolan's demand for gritty effort. I like it.

And I don't blame Nolan for the Sabres woes. He is a mediocre coach working with a poor roster.

 

My concerns are this: 

* Too many players are underachieving under Nolan: my prime examples are Moulson, Gionta, Stewart, Hodgson — lesser examples are Benny and the Mess.

* With the exception of Zemgus, none of our young guys are improving (Risto, Zadorov, Foligno) or being put in a position to succeed (Grigorenko, Reinhart, Larsson)

* His player usage baffles me at times (Flynn, Meszaros, Gionta on the PP over Zadorov, Grigorenko, Hodgson? Hell it took him a half-year to try Stewart in front of the net). I see Hodgson out there against the Stamkos line. I see Mitchell out there with our goalie pulled.

* His double standards are obvious. He rewards plumbers like Flynn and Mitchell for "effort" while ignoring their (lack of) results. It's a sin if you sit back and watch a play develop, but it's OK to be not good enough, just as long as you "compete."

* In the same vein, he sticks with veterans (Meszaros, Moulson) no matter how poorly they play and benches kids (Grigorenko, Larsson, Zadorov) at their first error.

* We've been outshot drastically virtually every single game and have shown no signs of adjusting our style. Ted's message is simply work harder.

 

Any one of these things can be justified in isolation, but overall it's a troubling picture.

I think Ted is a one-dimensional coach who can only relate to one kind of player. If we give him Hasek in goal and a team of Girgensons, he could challenge for the cup.

 

But I don't think we are rebuilding on that template.

We need a coach who is going to take our young core and maximize their potential.

From what I've seen of Teddy this year, his is not the formula for making it happen and he has shown no signs of adapting his style.

Nice dudacek. That's exactly what I was trying to articulate.

 

Ted Nolan only knows how to win and build a successful team in one mold. That mold relies on a great goaltender and a team full of Girgensens type players. We don't have that and will not have that at any point in the future given the high-end talent that GMTM is aiming to acquire. Thus, I think that Nolan's time is coming to an end at the end of the year.

 

Oh and Grigorenko still has plenty of time to grow into a NHL player. He has shown the willingness to improve in Rochester and falls victim of being a bit overconfident in his talent level/ability.

[JJFIVEOH]

I really don't understand this. I have no problem with Nolan's demand for gritty effort. I like it.

And I don't blame Nolan for the Sabres woes. He is a mediocre coach working with a poor roster.

 

My concerns are this: 

* Too many players are underachieving under Nolan: my prime examples are Moulson, Gionta, Stewart, Hodgson — lesser examples are Benny and the Mess.

* With the exception of Zemgus, none of our young guys are improving (Risto, Zadorov, Foligno) or being put in a position to succeed (Grigorenko, Reinhart, Larsson)

* His player usage baffles me at times (Flynn, Meszaros, Gionta on the PP over Zadorov, Grigorenko, Hodgson? Hell it took him a half-year to try Stewart in front of the net). I see Hodgson out there against the Stamkos line. I see Mitchell out there with our goalie pulled.

* His double standards are obvious. He rewards plumbers like Flynn and Mitchell for "effort" while ignoring their (lack of) results. It's a sin if you sit back and watch a play develop, but it's OK to be not good enough, just as long as you "compete."

* In the same vein, he sticks with veterans (Meszaros, Moulson) no matter how poorly they play and benches kids (Grigorenko, Larsson, Zadorov) at their first error.

* We've been outshot drastically virtually every single game and have shown no signs of adjusting our style. Ted's message is simply work harder.

 

Any one of these things can be justified in isolation, but overall it's a troubling picture.

I think Ted is a one-dimensional coach who can only relate to one kind of player. If we give him Hasek in goal and a team of Girgensons, he could challenge for the cup.

 

But I don't think we are rebuilding on that template.

We need a coach who is going to take our young core and maximize their potential.

From what I've seen of Teddy this year, his is not the formula for making it happen and he has shown no signs of adapting his style.

 

Fair enough, I can respect those observations.  Me, I don't think it's fair to judge him based on anything that has transpired this season. I don't think it's fair to criticize his player usage because he hasn't had anything to work with. Flynn got big minutes because he was the best option.  This team can't win games based on talent, Nolan has to try and win them based on limiting mistakes. Ellis and Flynn were better options in that case. We don't know if Nolan only has one mold because he hasn't had the opportunity to prove otherwise. He treats the kids differently than the vets because they need to learn early that they won't get rewarded for the mistakes.  Something tells me he knows Mess is a lost cause and only gives him big minutes when necessary.  It's not as easy to bench defenseman as it is forwards.  

I like your post,  I just don't think any coach should be held responsible for this mess. He deserves at least next year to show he can do something with some more talent when Murray will be able to add to the roster. 

[Patty16]

Nice dudacek. That's exactly what I was trying to articulate.

 

Ted Nolan only knows how to win and in one build a successful team mold. That mold relies on a great goaltender and a team full of Girgensens type players. We don't have that and will not have that at any point in the future given the high-end talent that GMTM is aiming to acquire. Thus, I think that Nolan's time is coming to an end at the end of the year.

 

Oh and Grigorenko still has plenty of time to grow into a NHL player. He has shown the willingness to improve in Rochester and falls victim of being a bit overconfident in his talent level/ability.

 

 

Coaches don't build teams.  He only has what GMTM gives him.  He may not be a great coach, but to say he only know how to win one way is pretty asinine. How do you know that?  

 

I see some say he's holding back Gionta and Stewart? Those guys havent had good seasons in years, well before TN came along.  

 

He's been given a pile of dog crap (for tank purposes) and some are actually saying he just isnt using them right?  Anyone outside of Buffalo knows this team couldn't win with any coach behind the bench.  

Nolan has never had top talent on a team so there's no way to say that. 

[dudacek]

Fair enough, I can respect those observations.  Me, I don't think it's fair to judge him based on anything that has transpired this season. I don't think it's fair to criticize his player usage because he hasn't had anything to work with. Flynn got big minutes because he was the best option.  This team can't win games based on talent, Nolan has to try and win them based on limiting mistakes. Ellis and Flynn were better options in that case. We don't know if Nolan only has one mold because he hasn't had the opportunity to prove otherwise. He treats the kids differently than the vets because they need to learn early that they won't get rewarded for the mistakes.  Something tells me he knows Mess is a lost cause and only gives him big minutes when necessary.  It's not as easy to bench defenseman as it is forwards.  

I like your post,  I just don't think any coach should be held responsible for this mess. He deserves at least next year to show he can do something with some more talent when Murray will be able to add to the roster. 

 

All fair comment too. 

I like and respect Teddy and I want him to succeed.

I just want the team to succeed more.

[LGR4GM]

Fair enough, I can respect those observations.  Me, I don't think it's fair to judge him based on anything that has transpired this season. I don't think it's fair to criticize his player usage because he hasn't had anything to work with. Flynn got big minutes because he was the best option.  This team can't win games based on talent, Nolan has to try and win them based on limiting mistakes. Ellis and Flynn were better options in that case.

If Ted Nolan was smart, he would have recognized this team could not win games and done everything in his power to develop the team that was the future.  Instead we get to watch Matt Ellis chip the puck up the boards for 15minutes a night. Also this has nothing whatsoever to do with McEichel. The goal of the season for the coaches should have been to develop players by exposing their weaknesses and then working to correct them.  That type of thing takes time and patience.  Grigorenko needed the year in Rochester no doubt.  He has grown there and I am glad to see it. When he is up with Buffalo Nolan completely misuses him or punishes him for any minor error that is perceived.  That teaches a player nothing other than "I must be perfect or I can't play".  Nolan loves Zemgus, but Reinhart and Grigorenko will never be Zemgus.  As a coach it is literally your job to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your players and find ways to help them succeed and overcome them. I do not believe Ted Nolan has helped any player this season overcome.  Is some of that on the lack of talent, absolutely but not everything.

[dudacek]

If Ted Nolan was smart, he would have recognized this team could not win games and done everything in his power to develop the team that was the future.  Instead we get to watch Matt Ellis chip the puck up the boards for 15minutes a night. Also this has nothing whatsoever to do with McEichel. The goal of the season for the coaches should have been to develop players by exposing their weaknesses and then working to correct them.  That type of thing takes time and patience.  Grigorenko needed the year in Rochester no doubt.  He has grown there and I am glad to see it. When he is up with Buffalo Nolan completely misuses him or punishes him for any minor error that is perceived.  That teaches a player nothing other than "I must be perfect or I can't play".  Nolan loves Zemgus, but Reinhart and Grigorenko will never be Zemgus.  As a coach it is literally your job to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your players and find ways to help them succeed and overcome them. I do not believe Ted Nolan has helped any player this season overcome.  Is some of that on the lack of talent, absolutely but not everything.

 

That's my biggest concern in nutshell. That's what I wanted most out of this year.

I think Teddy did some nice work in building the confidence (but not skill development) of Zemgus and Myers and Ennis, and the line pretty much stops there.

Edited March 10, 2015 by dudacek