Marvelo Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 where did management go wrong? what would you have done different? how deep is the ocean? how high is the sky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Things are going to be fine with this team eventually, but I think we may be looking at the 2016-2017 or 2017-2018 seasons before this team is a legit contender to go a few rounds in the playoffs. If management tries to rush things quicker than that..it will be harmful for the team overall. Completely agree, this is going to take time. They can't force young players into rolls they are not ready for. WHo knows - if they land Eichel maybe he goes back to school for a year longer. Samson may still need time to physically develop as well. So sit back and relax cause even though the "tank" may be over - the losing may go on for a while yet. Just know that once all these how deep is the ocean? how high is the sky? Just one thing management has done wrong? you must have a list since you've decided they are incompetent. Don't like the trade of Miller to the Blues? Or Mouson to the Wild and then re-signing Moulson? maybe you don't like the FA Gorges and Gionta? Is it that you don't think Reinhart was a good pick? and they kid scoring at almost a Goal a Game with an edge to his game wasn't a smart pick in the 2nd round. Please I'd love to hear what Sabres MGMT has done wrong. Edited January 16, 2015 by Crusader1969 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 That will be again next year when it won't matter to us. As expected, they are having their best year in years the year we have their pick. Doubt it - they have a star in Tavaras and the team is loaded with high end talent with more to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 There have been three coaches through many seasons, now, of progressively worse rosters. How anyone can see coaching as an issue, what with all we have seen, is beyond me. I agree. As I've said before Mike Babcock would appear average or worse coaching this roster. You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I don't see how Nolan isn't fired in the morning. GMTM will have a lot pressure mounting now. But but but tank? Uggghh. As bad as it is Nolan needs to finish the season. I just don't know how GMTM does that. The game tonight was an ultimate low bar. pressure from whom?? I think my comment is being taken out of perspective. I'm not blaming Nolan, although certainly he gets a share of the blame, I fully understand the lack of talent on the team. Especially when Matt freaking Ellis is on the team. My point is the heat that GMTM must feel with a game like this from this team. Nolan is now bumbling and seems shell shocked to me. The point really is can GMTM stand the heat that will be coming from all above him including El Pegual and the fans. Pro tank or anti tank people are going to be more than restless. And the pressure is building. What an udder crapfest last night was. Who needs tickets? Every game of mine is available except the Vancouver game. OMG Pegula is fully down with this plan and half the fan base is cheering every loss! I know I am full on Tank and I don't care if they lose 2-1 in a hard fought game or 7-0. Actually its a lot less stressful for me when its 7-0 and I can move over and watch the Oilers game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) The only way it makes sense to completely absolve Nolan is if you think this roster is a good deal worse than last year's. I do not think it is. I think it was designed to finish in last place, while being a bit more respectable than last season in the manner of doing so. It simply isn't happening that way, so either I (and basically everyone else) severely overrated the roster, or the coach isn't getting everything out of it. Goal differential, points, possession numbers, special teams...it's all worse than last year, and not by a trivial amount. I know you can't do this, but if you discount that 10/13 streak, we'd be on pace for less than 30 points on the year. I don't know how this can be happening without the coaching playing some role. Did so many of us really manage to severely overrate a roster we predicted would finish last in the league? Edited January 16, 2015 by TrueBluePhD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 There's still time! :) I think your time scale is way too compressed. If everything goes swimmingly, the Sabres squeak into the playoffs in April 2017. Contender is too far out to really bet on. I'd like to see 2018, but really I'd bet on two years of 6-8 seed before anyone is talking contender. Don't set yourself up for a fall man, I'm hoping to see Sabres hockey in June 2020, I won't let myself get more optimistic than that. Actually, my point was that it will take longer than most people expect. In casual conversations at work and when out with friends this is what I am hearing from MOST people: -Reinhart will be with the Sabres next year and one of their best players. -McDavid or Eichel, if the Sabres draft them, will be with the Sabres and should be an immediate star, 25-30 goal guy. -As soon as you bring up Pysyk, and Risto and Zadarov get another offseason, the D core will feature a top 4 that is near the top in the league. -This team should be in the playoffs for sure next year, and by the following season it will be really, really good. When I said 4 years for a legit cup contender, I was trying to say it will take LONGER than a lot of people expect. When you look at a lot of the top young players in the NHL now, most don't make much of an impact AT ALL until they are at least 20 or older. Most don't become stars capable of carrying a team into and through the playoffs until they are at LEAST 22, 23, or 24 years old. Most of the Sabres prospects are years away from that. For those expecting to see a good team next year, and a dominant team in 2 years.....I think they are going to be dissapointed. The key for the long term is don't rush things. Give Armia the full year in Rochester. Let Grigorenko and Pysyk stay in Rochester the rest of the year. And, Reinhart may be better off for the long term if he starts next year in Rochester and plays half, or even the entire season there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Completely agree, this is going to take time. They can't force young players into rolls they are not ready for. WHo knows - if they land Eichel maybe he goes back to school for a year longer. Samson may still need time to physically develop as well. So sit back and relax cause even though the "tank" may be over - the losing may go on for a while yet. Just know that once all these Just one thing management has done wrong? you must have a list since you've decided they are incompetent. Don't like the trade of Miller to the Blues? Or Mouson to the Wild and then re-signing Moulson? maybe you don't like the FA Gorges and Gionta? Is it that you don't think Reinhart was a good pick? and they kid scoring at almost a Goal a Game with an edge to his game wasn't a smart pick in the 2nd round. Please I'd love to hear what Sabres MGMT has done wrong. what are you, some kind of management apologist? When I have time, I'll make you a nice list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 bailing at this juncture or panicking and fire people is stupid. We've passed the point of no return. I agree with this. And all Nolan has asked for and expected is effort. He's not getting that from a bunch of them and I know this is not a normal season where the owner would be squeezing the gm who squeezes the coach but my God this is bad and looking worse for everyone involved. So back on topic I think the value of Enroth or Neuvie has dropped with the deal the wild made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I agree with this. And all Nolan has asked for and expected is effort. He's not getting that from a bunch of them and I know this is not a normal season where the owner would be squeezing the gm who squeezes the coach but my God this is bad and looking worse for everyone involved. So back on topic I think the value of Enroth or Neuvie has dropped with the deal the wild made. I think people are severely underestimating the "expectations" and the effect it has on players. When the expectations of management are to lose games, deep down that just has to play on the psyche of the players. I know, i know, they are professionals, they are paid to give max effort every night. And they should be playing for their own future, but i just think that is easy to say and hard to accomplish. And forget value for goalies...what GMTM got for Miller last year was an absolute steal...never see the likes of that again for a goalie, let alone two who are not proven winners in the playoffs. So while value may have dropped, don't think there was much value to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) The only way it makes sense to completely absolve Nolan is if you think this roster is a good deal worse than last year's. I do not think it is. I think it was designed to finish in last place, while being a bit more respectable than last season in the manner of doing so. It simply isn't happening that way, so either I (and basically everyone else) severely overrated the roster, or the coach isn't getting everything out of it. Goal differential, points, possession numbers, special teams...it's all worse than last year, and not by a trivial amount. I know you can't do this, but if you discount that 10/13 streak, we'd be on pace for less than 30 points on the year. I don't know how this can be happening without the coaching playing some role. Did so many of us really manage to severely overrate a roster we predicted would finish last in the league? Minus that one hot stretch the team has been simply painful to watch. At the beginning they had the excuse of needing to get used to each other and Nolan's system. And it did look like it was coming together, that we could be that gutsy 65-point team of lovable losers that many were sorta hoping for and expecting. I think those of you saying this is exactly what Murray had planned are wrong. He planned for a high lottery pick, sure. But he also planned to establish a solid work ethic, develop the young players and create UFA assets he could trade off at the deadline. Not seeing a lot of success in those areas. It's wrong to excuse him by saying the team's performance right now is his plan. And it's wrong to excuse Nolan by saying nobody could do better with the talent on hand. Edited January 16, 2015 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Minus that one hot stretch the team has been simply painful to watch. At the beginning they had the excuse of needing to get used to each other and Nolan's system. And it did look like it was coming together, that we could be that gutsy 65-point team of lovable losers that many were sorta hoping for and expecting. I think those of you saying this is exactly what Murray had planned are wrong. He planned for a high lottery pick, sure. But he also planned to establish a solid work ethic, develop the young players and create UFA assets he could trade off at the deadline. Not seeing a lot of success in those areas. It's wrong to excuse him by saying the team's performance right now is his plan. And it's wrong to excuse Nolan by saying nobody could do better with the talent on hand. Ultimately I think whether either of them is absolved is dependent upon what the team actually is. I use last year as the benchmark because that's when Murray came in and it's when the real ugly hockey started. Do you think the roster, as assembled, is better or worse than last year? If you think it's better, then the blame shifts towards Nolan. If you think it's worse, then the blame shifts towards Murray (and we may all be screwed). And if you think it's about the same...then I have no idea what to do with the blame. At the very least, I don't think this roster should be producing worse results than it did last year...but it is. To me, Nolan has to shoulder a lot of that. I could also be wrong on the quality of the roster, but c'mon, what are the chances of THAT happening? :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
respk Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I am a little surprised at how poorly they play at times. I thought they would have better effort but not win many, if any, more games. However in looking at the team I'm not sure the roster is any better than last year. Enroth/Neuvirth aren't better than Miller/Enroth/Neuvirth/Hacket/Leiuwann/etc. were last year and might be worse, I don't think the forwards are better, and I don't think the defense is better even though some of the faces have changed. As long as the Sabres finish last, I'm fine with them stinking up the joint. Due to McEichel it is the best way to rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 The game tonight was an ultimate low bar. One thing I hold dear in my heart was how absolutely horrible I felt when I was living in Detroit and the Red Wings got beat in a 7-0 shutout by Colorado in the conference finals in 1997. That was it, the Wings were done. The next night they beat Colorado 7-0. So in itself, this isn't such a bad loss. They happen, even to great teams. The badness really that they've been doing it so often that no one in the organization seems to really care anymore (including the fans). I'm trying to be steadfast and embrace the tank, but ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Is this thread still about trades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Ultimately I think whether either of them is absolved is dependent upon what the team actually is. I use last year as the benchmark because that's when Murray came in and it's when the real ugly hockey started. Do you think the roster, as assembled, is better or worse than last year? If you think it's better, then the blame shifts towards Nolan. If you think it's worse, then the blame shifts towards Murray (and we may all be screwed). And if you think it's about the same...then I have no idea what to do with the blame. At the very least, I don't think this roster should be producing worse results than it did last year...but it is. To me, Nolan has to shoulder a lot of that. I could also be wrong on the quality of the roster, but c'mon, what are the chances of THAT happening? :angel: This roster is definitely worse this year than last year by a long shot. Miller/Enroth is much better than Enroth/Neuvirth Ott played much better last year than Gionta has this year. Gorges was a solid addition but he's basically replaced Ehrhoff who was our best defenseman by a country mile. I think losing Ehrhoff has been the biggest loss of all. Last year we had Tallinder and McBain who stunk but are still better than Meszaros and Benoit. While getting some decent play (at times) from Ristolainen, Zadarov, Mitchell, and Strachan it hasn't been enough to make up for the level of play that we lost when guys like Miller, Ott, Ehrhoff, etc got moved out. Much of the rest of the roster is the same or equivalent (Vanek/Moulson to Moulson) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 The only way it makes sense to completely absolve Nolan is if you think this roster is a good deal worse than last year's. I do not think it is. I think it was designed to finish in last place, while being a bit more respectable than last season in the manner of doing so. It simply isn't happening that way, so either I (and basically everyone else) severely overrated the roster, or the coach isn't getting everything out of it. Goal differential, points, possession numbers, special teams...it's all worse than last year, and not by a trivial amount. I know you can't do this, but if you discount that 10/13 streak, we'd be on pace for less than 30 points on the year. I don't know how this can be happening without the coaching playing some role. Did so many of us really manage to severely overrate a roster we predicted would finish last in the league? This is why I think Murray is a Genius - he keeps Nolan who wasn't HIS guy cause he knows that Nolan can't do anything with this group. Once this team is ready to make a step forward (maybe 15/16 16/17) he will be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I don't care about the roster but as far as trades go... Rumors are that teams are waiting to see how the games go prior to the all star break to decide if they are buyers or sellers. Vancouver is getting calls on Kassian and it seems likely he will get dealt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Did GMTM screw up by not dealing Enroth when he was hot? I don't see them getting much more than maybe a 3rd round pick at this point... maybe could've fetched a 2nd in early Dec. The league seems to have him figured out. How many goals went in high last night? At least 5 of the 7? He covers the bottom of the net well, but he's too short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think people are severely underestimating the "expectations" and the effect it has on players. When the expectations of management are to lose games, deep down that just has to play on the psyche of the players. And forget value for goalies...what GMTM got for Miller last year was an absolute steal...never see the likes of that again for a goalie, let alone two who are not proven winners in the playoffs. So while value may have dropped, don't think there was much value to begin with. I think those of you saying this is exactly what Murray had planned are wrong. He planned for a high lottery pick, sure. But he also planned to establish a solid work ethic, develop the young players and create UFA assets he could trade off at the deadline. Not seeing a lot of success in those areas. It's wrong to excuse him by saying the team's performance right now is his plan. And it's wrong to excuse Nolan by saying nobody could do better with the talent on hand. These are two brilliant posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Did GMTM screw up by not dealing Enroth when he was hot? I don't see them getting much more than maybe a 3rd round pick at this point... maybe could've fetched a 2nd in early Dec. The league seems to have him figured out. How many goals went in high last night? At least 5 of the 7? He covers the bottom of the net well, but he's too short. I have a hard time imagining any teams having interest in Enroth after the last several weeks of play. Hindsight is always 20/20, but it really seems like he should've been traded at the end of Nov. and let Neuvirth / Makarov carry the load. Of course, while he was playing well they might have wondered if they'd found their answer in goal and wanted to stick with him going forward, so it's a catch-22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 You are assuming that Enroth could have been traded at the end of Novmember and I am not sure there was an interested party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 You are assuming that Enroth could have been traded at the end of November and I am not sure there was an interested party. I don't disagree at all... just musing out loud that in retrospect that would've been the time to shop him if they had intentions of doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I don't disagree at all... just musing out loud that in retrospect that would've been the time to shop him if they had intentions of doing so. ah, my bad. I agree it would have been the time to shop him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Juicy... @RealKyper: #Avs putting out feelers on Ryan O'Reilly as they search for D help. 2 teams showing interest include #Sabres #Leafs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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