TrueBlueGED Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Being "gritty" or "tough" is so so much more than just hitting. In fact, some would argue the toughest players are the ones who are able to take a hit, goes to the dirty areas, and keeps coming back for more. Want an example? I think Vanek has matured into a really tough player. He's always been able to take a beating, however he seemed to lose the desire to play hard in games where his teammates obviously didn't feel like playing. This changed this season, though too many times the Sabres were the Vanek line, and Ryan Miller - That's the mark of a truly tough player, you ask me, and we need more guys with this exact mindset. Guys who by their entire appearance on the ice send the message "Hit me with all you got, I ain't going nowhere, and all I need is one good look". They don't need to be hitters, they just need to not be pushovers, and they don't need to be 40 goal guys either, as long as they're not 5 goal guys or AHL'ers either. Unfortunately, something like 80% of the current Sabres are either pushovers, 5 goal guys, or AHL'ers :flirt: Well said, and another reason I cringe every time I see the hits statistic mentioned as being meaningful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Not everybody needs to be a 6'4" 230# battling gritty forward who scores goals by going to the boards and battling for rebounds. One dimensional teams usually go nowhere. This strawman argument needs to die. I don't think anyone here using terms "gritty" or "battling" or "tough" are implying the Sabres need monsters on all 4 lines and 3 pairings. It is, however, distorted by those trying to win the argument into just that. Crosby, as much as I dislike him, isn't a monster, but he doesn't back down from fighting or scrums, he hits and will take the hit when he has to, he'll make the dirty play when necessary, he's usually in the pile ups at the net. And he's 5'11". The following line came out wrong, so I changed it to read more diplomatically... When someone wishes for a tough player, thinking it always means a freakish orc on skates hacking away at the oppositions' knees instead of the puck is simply unfair, and to me, suggests that someone is only looking at winning the argument, rather than honestly evaluating the players and the roster. Like I tell my kids: "I'm not trying to be mean, or a jerk, or make extra work for you - I'm trying to help you." The same is true here: I am not trying to be overly critical or annoying to be annoying. Rather, as I get older, I am less inclined to tolerate fluffy, compromised thinking and actions with the hopes "they'll figure it out". Like the damn trees they just cut down on my block, the replacements, ironically scheduled to be planted in the next 2 or 3 years, won't mature for another 20-30 years. WTF?! I'm tired of waiting for so-called professionals, Ken Sawyer's so-called genius, to figure it the f#ck out, when the answers to how to build a team are right there in the league in front of you. Are all of those players 7 foot ogres? No. But they all hit, and they all take the hit (instead of avoiding it), and they all will dive into the net if necessary. Do they all fight? Of course not, but there are few who won't drop the gloves if need be, even the goalies. The Sabres, do they have this? I say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 This strawman argument needs to die. I don't think anyone here using terms "gritty" or "battling" or "tough" are implying the Sabres need monsters on all 4 lines and 3 pairings. It is, however, distorted by those trying to win the argument into just that. Crosby, as much as I dislike him, isn't a monster, but he doesn't back down from fighting or scrums, he hits and will take the hit when he has to, he'll make the dirty play when necessary, he's usually in the pile ups at the net. And he's 5'11". One dimensional is when someone wishes for a tough player, thinking it always means a freakish orc on skates hacking away at the oppositions knees instead of the puck. Although Boston has taught us this can be a good way to win a series when that hacking is focused on the other team's best player :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Although Boston has taught us this can be a good way to win a series when that hacking is focused on the other team's best player :P See, I ask you not to quote until I finished my edit...that doesn't read the way I wanted it to. I'm not trying to insult anyone. Point taken, though. Boston is coached to be dirty. I think if they weren't, I would feel better about preferring they make it to the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 If I understand you sizzle you are arguing that Cody Hodgson is not a center on a stanley cup contender and that we shouldn't wait for him to reach potential because that is all we ever do? Meaning all we do is say "well when he reaches his potential..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 This strawman argument needs to die. I don't think anyone here using terms "gritty" or "battling" or "tough" are implying the Sabres need monsters on all 4 lines and 3 pairings. It is, however, distorted by those trying to win the argument into just that. Crosby, as much as I dislike him, isn't a monster, but he doesn't back down from fighting or scrums, he hits and will take the hit when he has to, he'll make the dirty play when necessary, he's usually in the pile ups at the net. And he's 5'11". The following line came out wrong, so I changed it to read more diplomatically... When someone wishes for a tough player, thinking it always means a freakish orc on skates hacking away at the oppositions' knees instead of the puck is simply unfair, and to me, suggests that someone is only looking at winning the argument, rather than honestly evaluating the players and the roster. Like I tell my kids: "I'm not trying to be mean, or a jerk, or make extra work for you - I'm trying to help you." The same is true here: I am not trying to be overly critical or annoying to be annoying. Rather, as I get older, I am less inclined to tolerate fluffy, compromised thinking and actions with the hopes "they'll figure it out". Like the damn trees they just cut down on my block, the replacements, ironically scheduled to be planted in the next 2 or 3 years, won't mature for another 20-30 years. WTF?! I'm tired of waiting for so-called professionals, Ken Sawyer's so-called genius, to figure it the f#ck out, when the answers to how to build a team are right there in the league in front of you. Are all of those players 7 foot ogres? No. But they all hit, and they all take the hit (instead of avoiding it), and they all will dive into the net if necessary. Do they all fight? Of course not, but there are few who won't drop the gloves if need be, even the goalies. The Sabres, do they have this? I say no. My point regarding your posts so far is that you are looking for the perfect player. You might be a little lenient on some aspects of their game, but you're looking for way too much. The few players that fit your description are few and far between, not to mention expensive. If they're not expensive chances are they have downsides in other aspect of their game. You simply cannot create a team full of bigger guys who battle along the boards and in front of the net. When you do that, you're gonna get torn to shreds because your team will be as slow as molasses. If you have 12 forwards who do nothing but battle, who is going to set them up? Who is going to be the fast guy to get open to score goals? Who is going to be the center that can make some moves to receive the puck to set up a scoring opportunity? Somebody like Hodgson is who he is because he isn't a big tough battler. In my opinion you need a well balanced team to be successful. Too many small speedy guys and you're going to get beat up. Too many big battlers and the other team is going to skate circles around you. We finally have a center who so far has been very consistent, doesn't get down on himself, sets up plays and is racking up the points. And he is only a sophomore. When you say you're sick of waiting for players to come around in the Sabres organization, we're not talking Luke Adam here. We're talking about a player who has the ability to one day become a #1 center if he keeps on improving the way he is. People don't like his defense, so what. That's why we have defensemen. Not trying to criticize you, but it just seems like you're wanting to create a one dimensional team. How many players in the last 10 years have reached their potential by their second year and became the bonafide superstar on their team? Not to mention Hodgson has had to deal with playing under three different coaches in less than 150 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different team than some here. Hodgson was one of the few bright spots this season and definitely a guy I want on the team going forward. I almost agree 100%. I was impressed by Hodgson considering it was his first big role season in the NHL. He's never had this kind of role in the NHL. Offensively he was fantastic. However, he was absolutely terrible defensively. Hodgson has never played such a large role in the NHL. For him to play as well as he did offensively in his first big role, I am very satisfied. He'll figure it out defensively soon (we hope). Not every single top six forward needs to be out there fighting and hitting nonstop. It's obviously preferable, but there are plenty of stars (Crosby, Stamkos, Toews etc) that aren't out there laying the boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Not everybody needs to be a 6'4" 230# battling gritty forward who scores goals by going to the boards and battling for rebounds. One dimensional teams usually go nowhere. Not unlike the Sabres ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Not unlike the Sabres ? Boston is actually smaller by weight than Pittsburgh I think. ! big issue with the Sabres this season was how slow they looked and how crappy they passed. It wasn't until Flynn/Porter started logging regular time that we saw some speed from ppl. Also coincides with Rolston becoming head coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Boston is actually smaller by weight than Pittsburgh I think. ! big issue with the Sabres this season was how slow they looked and how crappy they passed. It wasn't until Flynn/Porter started logging regular time that we saw some speed from ppl. Also coincides with Rolston becoming head coach. I really think it had more to do with faster play from the back end. I think speed starts at the back end. Beginning of the year Leopold looked slow, Myers looked slow, Regier stayed slow, Weber ain't that fast. It was a slow back end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 It was a slow back end. This right here is signature worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 This right here is signature worthy. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Not unlike the Sabres ? The Sabres aren't a one dimensional team. They have small, speedy players. They have big, gritty players. They have guys that can hit, and guys that can skate. The problem lies in the fact that they're just not very good at it. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 The Sabres aren't a one dimensional team. They have small, speedy players. They have big, gritty players. They have guys that can hit, and guys that can skate. The problem lies in the fact that they're just not very good at it. :P It's like having a diversified portfolio that loses money. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Boston is actually smaller by weight than Pittsburgh I think. It may depends on how you look it (I only calculated one way), but using a weighted (by playoff TOI) average weight, you get the following: Boston Defense: 216.2 lbs Offense: 203.6 lbs Overall: 208.6 lbs Pittsburgh Defense: 211.7 lbs Offense: 199.4 lbs Overall: 204.3 lbs (Data source: NHL.com) Pittsburgh could help themselves by pairing Murray with Letang instead of Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 The Sabres aren't a one dimensional team. They have small, speedy players. They have big, gritty players. They have guys that can hit, and guys that can skate. The problem lies in the fact that they're just not very good at it. :P This is one of the big mis-conceptions, especially among the national media. The Sabres have no extremely speedy players and only Ennis and Kaleta qualify as particularly speedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 It may depends on how you look it (I only calculated one way), but using a weighted (by playoff TOI) average weight, you get the following: Boston Defense: 216.2 lbs Offense: 203.6 lbs Overall: 208.6 lbs Pittsburgh Defense: 211.7 lbs Offense: 199.4 lbs Overall: 204.3 lbs (Data source: NHL.com) Pittsburgh could help themselves by pairing Murray with Letang instead of Martin. I think the Pens should move Iginla back to his normal right wing side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 It may depends on how you look it (I only calculated one way), but using a weighted (by playoff TOI) average weight, you get the following: Boston Defense: 216.2 lbs Offense: 203.6 lbs Overall: 208.6 lbs Pittsburgh Defense: 211.7 lbs Offense: 199.4 lbs Overall: 204.3 lbs (Data source: NHL.com) Pittsburgh could help themselves by pairing Murray with Letang instead of Martin. By help themselves, are you talking the weight numbers or actually help play hockey? Because the only way moving Murray would improve the team is if he were moved to the press box. Talk about cement shoes and being embarrassed by fast players on a routine basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 This is one of the big mis-conceptions, especially among the national media. The Sabres have no extremely speedy players and only Ennis and Kaleta qualify as particularly speedy. agree Sabres are not going to beat anyone with outside speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 agree Sabres are not going to beat anyone with outside speed. Which is why Flynn and Porter were effective 3rd line players for us. They had speed but also could battle. I watched those two skate pucks out a lot. Not saying they are burning down the building with their speed but compared to some of our other guys they at least could go outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 By help themselves, are you talking the weight numbers or actually help play hockey? Because the only way moving Murray would improve the team is if he were moved to the press box. Talk about cement shoes and being embarrassed by fast players on a routine basis. Definitely meant weight-wise. I should have put a ;) at the end. Chara logging almost 29 min/GP at 255 lbs definitely bumps Boston's weight numbers up and the only player close to that for Pittsburgh is Murray at 245 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Definitely meant weight-wise. I should have put a ;) at the end. Chara logging almost 29 min/GP at 255 lbs definitely bumps Boston's weight numbers up and the only player close to that for Pittsburgh is Murray at 245 lbs. Ok that's what I thought, just never know for sure sometimes :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Which is why Flynn and Porter were effective 3rd line players for us. They had speed but also could battle. I watched those two skate pucks out a lot. Not saying they are burning down the building with their speed but compared to some of our other guys they at least could go outside. They give an honest shift those two, I'll give you that. But not really the start of a checking line you need to close out close games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 They give an honest shift those two, I'll give you that. But not really the start of a checking line you need to close out close games. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesportsbuff Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 agree Sabres are not going to beat anyone with outside speed. I agree that Sabres are not a "fast" team. But I would include Gerbe on the list of speedy players. When he flies, he flies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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