Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 The bolded statement really sums it up for me. You're fundamentally against giving money to Pegula. Serious question: are you OK with the taxpayers fronting $200 million to billionaire Ralph Wilson for stadium upgrades? Edit: To expand upon this a little, subsidizing people/businesses to build something is just how the system works. Would you be against giving tax breaks to a company to build a new regional headquarters in the area if it created a few hundred jobs, just because the company technically doesn't need the tax breaks? Realistically it's just how things get done. Oh, and pretty sure you over-estimated Pegula's net worth by about $2 billion. http://www.forbes.co...errence-pegula/ You can give money to Pegula...but let's call it what it is......A practice rink and enhancements to his money making operation under the guise of "Yeah! Hockey Rink for the people!" Show me numbers......show me how this is going to benefit the community and the taxpayers. Why do you need 2,000 seats for some kiddies coming down for a 2 day tourney? I've shown you estimated numbers and reasons why Paladino's proposal makes more sense......show me with concrete examples how Pegula deserves extra money from tax payers leaving him with no incentive to sell residential units that are tied to retail space? If Paladino fails.....he is F'd. If Pegula fails.....he has free ice rinks, parking spaces, and ramps to add to his Sabres revenue stream. The taxpayers already ate Tens of millions when debt was forgiven and Golisano bought the team. And that was for an actual Hockey Heaven NHL Team Arena. Now we are dealing with add-ons and pie in the sky hopes that thousands will nring their children downtown to iceskate each day. There are plenty of other ways for Pegula to get involved downtown without adding a burden to taxpayers in such a great amount. I am not opposed to him getting the site, in fact if he gets it there is a better chance of completion. I want to see HARDCORE projections......and there is no way I would give him more money than the other project. If the Sabres were smart, they would concentrate on a smaller project in Amherst. Partner with UB, get a practice rink minutes away from where most of the Sabres live, add hotel and conference space and do it on free land, saving the state, county, and city money and adding an asset that could grow the school in term of sports and recognition. Then everyone wins in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I know Pegula doesn't own teh webster block, but he also isn't currently leasing it from the City either. So in negotiations the Bills are asking that part of the lease agreement includes renovations, they still don't own the stadium themselves, so your saying that Ralph should have to pay to upgrade something he isn't the owner of? Would you pay your own money for repairs and upgrades to an apartment or condo you are renting/leasing or would you tell the owner that they should be paying to upgrade things? No, I don't think Wilson should pay for upgrades to a facility he doesn't own, but at the same time I don't think it should necessarily be included in the lease agreement either. Are the upgrades necessary? If they increase profitability, who gets that money? The Bills or the taxpayers who paid for the damn thing? But I don't think that's what Drane was getting at anyway. My reading of his comment was he's opposed to subsidizing a billionaire, and the county absolutely subsidizes the Bills. If I'm wrong on that I'm sure he'll be happy to correct me. Oh, and I still think building more office space is a terrible idea and a complete waste of investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Apparently there is only two of us the even remember that little mess so I think I can be forgiven for forgetting the exact name of that excapade. :D http://www.green--lightning.com/green_light_page2.html You can navigate to home page at bottom with articles and such. I had family up on Colvin and I was younger, but everyone laughed so hard when we would drive by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Why do you need 2,000 seats for some kiddies coming down for a 2 day tourney? I have no source for this, but having that capacity gives you some options, Maybe we want an OHL team or something in the long run. Gives some colleges in the area a place to play home games, facility for team related activites. Just because it can be used for Pee Wee practice doesnt mean thats the only reason you build it. Im not sure 2000 seats is really any cause for concern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 You can give money to Pegula...but let's call it what it is......A practice rink and enhancements to his money making operation under the guise of "Yeah! Hockey Rink for the people!" Show me numbers......show me how this is going to benefit the community and the taxpayers. Why do you need 2,000 seats for some kiddies coming down for a 2 day tourney? I've shown you estimated numbers and reasons why Paladino's proposal makes more sense......show me with concrete examples how Pegula deserves extra money from tax payers leaving him with no incentive to sell residential units that are tied to retail space? If Paladino fails.....he is F'd. If Pegula fails.....he has free ice rinks, parking spaces, and ramps to add to his Sabres revenue stream. The taxpayers already ate Tens of millions when debt was forgiven and Golisano bought the team. And that was for an actual Hockey Heaven NHL Team Arena. Now we are dealing with add-ons and pie in the sky hopes that thousands will nring their children downtown to iceskate each day. There are plenty of other ways for Pegula to get involved downtown without adding a burden to taxpayers in such a great amount. I am not opposed to him getting the site, in fact if he gets it there is a better chance of completion. I want to see HARDCORE projections......and there is no way I would give him more money than the other project. If the Sabres were smart, they would concentrate on a smaller project in Amherst. Partner with UB, get a practice rink minutes away from where most of the Sabres live, add hotel and conference space and do it on free land, saving the state, county, and city money and adding an asset that could grow the school in term of sports and recognition. Then everyone wins in this. You've shown pulled out of your ass numbers, not estimated numbers. There's a difference. The public simply isn't privy to the real financial estimates of the revenue generation of both of these proposals. And of course there's self-interest involved, only a fool would think there isn't. But I don't think self-interest and public-interest are mutually exclusive concepts--the proposal can benefit both Pegula and the area. As much as I like your Amherst idea, it doesn't do anything to help the city itself. In fact maybe it does the opposite since it gives people yet another reason to just stay in the suburbs. And that's the crux of it for me, the Paladino proposal does nothing to bring in people from the suburbs. Maybe some big-wigs who can afford the condos move in, but that's it. It doesn't bring in people from outside the area for tournaments or other events, it doesn't give people in the suburbs a reason to spend a day in the city, or anything like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 http://www.green--li...ight_page2.html You can navigate to home page at bottom with articles and such. I had family up on Colvin and I was younger, but everyone laughed so hard when we would drive by. Them's was funny days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Some interesting stuff here. I think Buffalo would greatly benefit from removal of the skyway. I also think that the 190 should be torn out from the GI bridge to the elm st exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/24280948 The actual Sabres proposal presentation. Warning: It's about an hour long. I haven't watched it yet, but plan to sometime today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 http://www.ustream.t...corded/24280948 The actual Sabres proposal presentation. Warning: It's about an hour long. I haven't watched it yet, but plan to sometime today. is it set to "better days"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 is it set to "better days"? :lol: If I had to listen to that song loop for an hour, it would turn me against the proposal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 You've shown pulled out of your ass numbers, not estimated numbers. . What....in estimating value of real estate given comparable units nearby, and in other feature projects that are similar elsewhere......multiplied by average real estate taxes that would be recouped? What.....in giving examples of other municipalities that have defaulted on revenue stream projects with only one use, and long term implications of either having to eat the cost of the project, or suffering long term with increased interest rates on their borrowing across the board? What....of showing that Hockey Heaven couldn't even support an NHL team to the point that it could carry the debt load on the arena, and $20 million+ was taken from the taxpayers to forgive debt in order to get Golisano to buy the Sabres? Paladino has laid out his entire plan, so it is much easier to see where revenue streams will come from. In the Pegula plan, taxpayers are directly subsidizing a value-added benefit to his already exisiting enterprise with NO ALTERNATIVE FUTURE USE, and gut the rvenue streams of taxes on residential and office space with the hopes and dreams that hundreds of thousands of hockey moms will bring their children in from out of the area to iceskate, and they will stay for a week and buy Gucci purses. But let's just stick to insulting posters when we have no clue of which we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Why couldn't they end the Skyway at Katherine St. and tie it into the Thruway via Katherine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Webster ice will NOT be a Sabres practice facility. Junior Sabres, Canisius, SABAH, mens leagues, USA Hockey, high schools, Hasek's Heroes, Darius' church, plus some others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Webster ice will NOT be a Sabres practice facility. Junior Sabres, Canisius, SABAH, mens leagues, USA Hockey, high schools, Hasek's Heroes, Darius' church, plus some others. Did this come out today? The city needs to share specifics and release financial projections as well as how much taxpayers are paying in each. That's the only way to go about it. I don't care if Pegula wants to build down there. I just don't want to be forced to subsidize Hockey Heaven any further. If you want to buy season tickets and give Lieno and Ehrhoff $16 million in cash, that's cool. All I know is that if you collect the taxes on the residential alone, that is worth north of $20 million to the taxpayers coming back on a perpetual basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Did this come out today? The city needs to share specifics and release financial projections as well as how much taxpayers are paying in each. That's the only way to go about it. I don't care if Pegula wants to build down there. I just don't want to be forced to subsidize Hockey Heaven any further. If you want to buy season tickets and give Lieno and Ehrhoff $16 million in cash, that's cool. All I know is that if you collect the taxes on the residential alone, that is worth north of $20 million to the taxpayers coming back on a perpetual basis. I would think you would have to look at how much money/taxes a resident would spend/generate vs. a million people coming from out of town, buying goods, food, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 What....in estimating value of real estate given comparable units nearby, and in other feature projects that are similar elsewhere......multiplied by average real estate taxes that would be recouped? What.....in giving examples of other municipalities that have defaulted on revenue stream projects with only one use, and long term implications of either having to eat the cost of the project, or suffering long term with increased interest rates on their borrowing across the board? What....of showing that Hockey Heaven couldn't even support an NHL team to the point that it could carry the debt load on the arena, and $20 million+ was taken from the taxpayers to forgive debt in order to get Golisano to buy the Sabres? Paladino has laid out his entire plan, so it is much easier to see where revenue streams will come from. In the Pegula plan, taxpayers are directly subsidizing a value-added benefit to his already exisiting enterprise with NO ALTERNATIVE FUTURE USE, and gut the rvenue streams of taxes on residential and office space with the hopes and dreams that hundreds of thousands of hockey moms will bring their children in from out of the area to iceskate, and they will stay for a week and buy Gucci purses. But let's just stick to insulting posters when we have no clue of which we speak. 1) Congrats, you actually did that. 2) You gave ONE example, and claimed to have dozens of others. Even if you were to list the dozens of others which failed, I'm pretty sure I could find dozens which have succeeded. Saying some projects have failed says nothing about the viability of that type of project, since there's always failures. 3) What needed to be done to get Golisano to buy the Sabres has no relation to the viability of a rinks project. 4) How's the office space occupancy rate in Buffalo doing? What evidence do we have that these new office spaces will automatically fill up? Oh, and no alternative future use? What about the possibility of an ECHL or OHL franchise? Something like that isn't right around the corner, but if it's a lot easier to accomplish if you have the facility. The Sabres' proposal has almost twice the retail space, a fitness center (which I'd put money is successful in spite of whatever else happens), and more hotel rooms. It also gives the prospect of future events, future minor franchises/junior teams, and gives suburbanites a reason to actually go into the city when things are held there. You're basically looking at rinks vs. office space, and fitness facility and 60 extra hotel rooms vs. 40 luxury apartments. Opting for the Paladino proposal is your typical Buffalo "well, it has a lower chance of being a complete failure" minimalistic line of thinking, as opposed to having a vision and aggressively pursuing something bigger. Yea, it may fail...but you don't turn Buffalo around by constantly hitting singles, sometimes you have to go for a home run and risk striking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I would think you would have to look at how much money/taxes a resident would spend/generate vs. a million people coming from out of town, buying goods, food, etc. A million people? That's the assumption you are making....and $70 million gambled in building that structure on top of what will be included in both proposals minus the residential. The hotel is there either way for hockey fans, business trips, and Canadiens coming down to shop and maybe spend some time near the water. Why would Buffalo become an Ultimate destination because of a hockey rink? Just like putting a casino down there? It would make it easier for the Sabres to host special events, but you are talking a few weeks a year. I'm all for getting Pegula on board and am not against him getting it.....as long as it makes sense. I'm much more ready to accept using the already built arena as the attraction and by adding retail and more hotel space, maybe now you can think about getting a new convention center on the water that would come in handy for the exploding medical corridor. There's room for everyone. Just do it efficiently and with as much outside money as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 4) How's the office space occupancy rate in Buffalo doing? What evidence do we have that these new office spaces will automatically fill up? Oh, it'll fill up. Unfortunately some other places will likely empty out in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 A million people go to the Pepsi Center every year and that's just a barn in a field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 1) Congrats, you actually did that. 2) You gave ONE example, and claimed to have dozens of others. Even if you were to list the dozens of others which failed, I'm pretty sure I could find dozens which have succeeded. Saying some projects have failed says nothing about the viability of that type of project, since there's always failures. 3) What needed to be done to get Golisano to buy the Sabres has no relation to the viability of a rinks project. 4) How's the office space occupancy rate in Buffalo doing? What evidence do we have that these new office spaces will automatically fill up? Oh, and no alternative future use? What about the possibility of an ECHL or OHL franchise? Something like that isn't right around the corner, but if it's a lot easier to accomplish if you have the facility. The Sabres' proposal has almost twice the retail space, a fitness center (which I'd put money is successful in spite of whatever else happens), and more hotel rooms. It also gives the prospect of future events, future minor franchises/junior teams, and gives suburbanites a reason to actually go into the city when things are held there. You're basically looking at rinks vs. office space, and fitness facility and 60 extra hotel rooms vs. 40 luxury apartments. Opting for the Paladino proposal is your typical Buffalo "well, it has a lower chance of being a complete failure" minimalistic line of thinking, as opposed to having a vision and aggressively pursuing something bigger. Yea, it may fail...but you don't turn Buffalo around by constantly hitting singles, sometimes you have to go for a home run and risk striking out. You are dealing with a $70 million ice rink that is going to make Buffalo "THE Destination". Why? How? Who's coming? For how long? How do you know? An arena or stadium for a major league franchise is one thing. Using public money for "An Attraction" is another. Ice Rink, Amusement Park, Sports Complex, etc......they all start out with pie in the sky projections, preying on public excitement and hoping that momentum gets the municipality involved. There is a valuation technique used in the small world of nonrated muni bond trading when it comes to this stuff called The Graceland Standard. Graceland was the most successful specialty destination in history. When a new project was presented, or a bond issue was being floated, and projections started approaching or passing what Graceland did, you knew they were full of it. Ok....call us in a year or two when your $10 million waterpark or $26 million icerink is selling at 30 cents on the dollar, and maybe we'll start building a position and then restructure that rink into a $4 million issue and keep the 2nd mortgage and any passing profits tax-free. That's the type of scenario you have setting up here. I have no idea how this will be funded or the amounts....that's the problem right now.....but it is a lot easier finding an end user for $30 million in residential units and office space next to an existing attraction if things go bad than it is for a $70 million icerink. Housing fails as well, but when a specialty unit fails....that's it. And a $20 million loss to the taxpayers is VERY RELEVANT on the HSBC arena. The team couldn't even support those payments. The same team that had been to the Stanley Cup a few years earlier and who was selling out every game. You build this arena and you are trusting the NHL and the Sabres as your attraction partners. Call me not tickled pink. I think Pegula getting involved down there is great.....but for a guy who was going to "build another well" if he wanted to make money.......how about this first round is on Uncle Terry and THEN....let the tax breaks and subsidies flow when he and his group can prove their management skills. If we are only going by the results of the hockey team so far......eeeeeeeh? A million people go to the Pepsi Center every year and that's just a barn in a field. 3,000 people a day? Wow! Let's set up shop next door then, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Why don't you get some of your facts straight and call me maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I warned you guys... not to engage him. Listen, and understand. That user is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Why don't you get some of your facts straight and call me maybe. Well, if you are getting 1,000,000 people in traffic, there have to be shops and restaurants next door. If not, why? Also, if you take a 2.5 mile radius from the Amherst Ice Center, look at the amount of people, disposable income, and businesses already established. Now do the same for the proposed $70 million ice rink. You may see why it always isn't a case of "if you build it they will come". Call me maybe?........are you slightly giving in after all this time? :wub: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Oh, and pretty sure you over-estimated Pegula's net worth by about $2 billion. http://www.forbes.co...errence-pegula/ This was my bad. He sold the company for close to 5, but had to give up 1/4 of the company to get the deal done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Well, if you are getting 1,000,000 people in traffic, there have to be shops and restaurants next door. If not, why? Also, if you take a 2.5 mile radius from the Amherst Ice Center, look at the amount of people, disposable income, and businesses already established. Now do the same for the proposed $70 million ice rink. You may see why it always isn't a case of "if you build it they will come". Call me maybe?........are you slightly giving in after all this time? :wub: TPegs is footing the bill for all of it. They know they'll lose money on the rink. He's committed to the community and all you want to do is put him down and call him a pedophile. Ur an ass. Oh sorry, don't attack the poster. Your views are assholish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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