With the Islanders Lease ending...

[Tom Backyard]

I didn't know it was Forest City that was developing Barclay's Center. That company owns the Boulevard Mall. So when you shop, the Nets win! (Not really.)

 

 

I didn't know they owned the Boulevard Mall. Forest City Ratner has been the bad guy here in Brooklyn for the past 6-7 years or so as this plan has unfolded. They've openly exercised the principle of eminent domain, so there are lots of toes that have been stepped on.

[Bullwinkle]

It can be argued that the Islanders are more responsible for the Sabres Cup drought than any other team. That 1979-80 Sabres team is probably the best in Franchise history.

 

We're in total agreement on that.

 

If they defeat this stadium proposal Wang will try to relocate within the NY area. But failing that, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that he'll try to sell the team. I don't see him owning a team in Ottawa, Seattle, or K.C., which may end with the NHL taking over yet another franchise.

 

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

[RazielSabre]

I think they had good attendance right up until, and maybe even after, Wang bought the team. He's a shithead. I believe the Isles have a strong fanbase, and I really wouldn't want to see them move.

 

Put it this way: In my lifetime, they've been incredibly more successful than their cousins across the East River. They built a good team, and cultivated good fans, the old-fashoined way, rather than by buying everyone in sight (a Rangers practice that started with Espo, if not before, and continues to the present day, with exactly one Cup to show for it). Their fans are more dedicated--not more in number, but more dedicated--than Rags fans who constantly demand that the team buy the latest toy to retain their interest.

 

Wang's an idiot; the arena sucks; the fans shouldn't suffer for it.

 

Well they got a 'no' for a new arena in a low turnout election. In Wang's position I'd move the team; if the team aren't loved enough for a new arena, they can't make a profit in the current one then there's not a lot of choice left if he doesn't want to wait it out. Even if he does wait the lease out where does that leave them? With regards to selling the team I cannot see anyone buying them at the moment other than to move them.

 

Out of interest if they did move elsewhere in NY could they retain the islanders name?

[Eleven]

Well they got a 'no' for a new arena in a low turnout election. In Wang's position I'd move the team; if the team aren't loved enough for a new arena, they can't make a profit in the current one then there's not a lot of choice left if he doesn't want to wait it out. Even if he does wait the lease out where does that leave them? With regards to selling the team I cannot see anyone buying them at the moment other than to move them.

 

Out of interest if they did move elsewhere in NY could they retain the islanders name?

 

Why not? Cf. LA Lakers.

[X. Benedict]

They've had alot more than 4 good years. Until 2000 the Islanders were a more successful team than Buffalo. They both had 13 90pt + seasons between 72 and 00, but NY had those Stanley Cups. The problem for them has been the last 11 years. And they've still had 4 playoff appearances in the last 11 years, only one less than Buffalo.

 

In the same timeframe (72-00) the Rangers have 14 90+ pt seasons and have been in the playoffs 5 times since 00.

 

There's a real good argument to be made that the Islanders are every bit as important as the Rangers and Sabres over the time they've been in exsistance.

True. The Islanders had great teams even in many of those non-cup years.

[waldo]

Ya gotta love Wang. He structures the deal so the County is doing business with a no asset shell corporation on the new lease should the facility be approved. Smart, but not what you would call a good faith gesture as it relates to all that debt service. On the County side you have to ask why the facility was never properly maintained? Then you add the fact that a $400 million facility on Long Island is really only a $300 million facility if you eliminate the $100 million NYS Unionized labor graft bonus. The good citizens of Long Island, although not the sharpest knives in the drawer, have seen all this rip me off crap before enough times to know it for what it is. First there was the $500 million dollar Suffolk County Sewer District boondoggle, then the four billion dollar Shoreham Nuclear power plant rip off, which was followed by the ten billion dollar sale of LILCO favor for the NYC bond boars. They, meaning the good citizens of Long Island, ended up paying for it all along with their $60,000 per student public school systems and their $130,000 average salary policemen. Force the sale of the team and move it to a less corrupt area. They would probably be appreciated more and do better on Prince Edward Island. The "Prince Edward Islanders". It has a ring to it.

[shrader]

Why not? Cf. LA Lakers.

 

"The Jazz moved to Salt Lake City, where they don't allow music."

[Eleven]

Ya gotta love Wang. He structures the deal so the County is doing business with a no asset shell corporation on the new lease should the facility be approved. Smart, but not what you would call a good faith gesture as it relates to all that debt service. On the County side you have to ask why the facility was never properly maintained? Then you add the fact that a $400 million facility on Long Island is really only a $300 million facility if you eliminate the $100 million NYS Unionized labor graft bonus.What would it have cost to just build a state of the art thirty thousand seat hockey facility, $100-$125 million? The good citizens of Long Island, although not the sharpest knives in the drawer, have seen all this rip me off crap before enough times to know it for what it is. First there was the $500 million dollar Suffolk County Sewer District boondoggle, then the four billion dollar Shoreham Nuclear power plant rip off, which was followed by the ten billion dollar sale of LILCO favor for the NYC bond boars. They, meaning the good citizens of Long Island, ended up paying for it all along with their $60,000 per student public school systems and their $130,000 average salary policemen. Force the sale of the team and move it to a less corrupt area. They would probably be appreciated more and do better on Prince Edward Island. The "Prince Edward Islanders". It has a ring to it.

 

 

Yeah, I don't go that way. Not that there's anything wrong with it, though.

[Barry in KC]

That's what makes the most sense. KC doesn't seem like it would have any more an appetite for hockey today than it did 35 years ago.

 

EDIT: Google just told me that the Brooklyn arena will be too small for hockey.

I don't know if KC can support a new team better than the Scouts, but the new arena is in a much better location than the old one and KC has a minor league team in a 3K seat arena that is always sold out, so I'd like to see it happen.

[darksabre]

"The Jazz moved to Salt Lake City, where they don't allow music."

 

The Raiders moved from Oakland to Los Angeles, then back to Oakland. No one in Los Angeles seemed to notice.

[Iron Crotch]

As much as I'd hate to see it, the most viable U.S. market might be Houston. 4th largest city in the U.S., huge media market, existing 17,800 seat stadium with a potentially favorable lease deal, a whopping 103 luxury boxes, massive corporate base to sell those boxes to, natural rivalry with Dallas, current AHL team (Aeros) is top-10 in attendance... and you know Bettman would love it / push for it since it fits his "Southern expansion" ideal...

 

Like most on this board, I'd rather see Seattle or QC, but it wouldn't shock me to see Houston come into play.

[darksabre]

I might not like the Islanders, but I hope they don't move.

[KD in CT]

Ya gotta love Wang. He structures the deal so the County is doing business with a no asset shell corporation on the new lease should the facility be approved. Smart, but not what you would call a good faith gesture as it relates to all that debt service. On the County side you have to ask why the facility was never properly maintained? Then you add the fact that a $400 million facility on Long Island is really only a $300 million facility if you eliminate the $100 million NYS Unionized labor graft bonus. The good citizens of Long Island, although not the sharpest knives in the drawer, have seen all this rip me off crap before enough times to know it for what it is. First there was the $500 million dollar Suffolk County Sewer District boondoggle, then the four billion dollar Shoreham Nuclear power plant rip off, which was followed by the ten billion dollar sale of LILCO favor for the NYC bond boars. They, meaning the good citizens of Long Island, ended up paying for it all along with their $60,000 per student public school systems and their $130,000 average salary policemen. Force the sale of the team and move it to a less corrupt area. They would probably be appreciated more and do better on Prince Edward Island. The "Prince Edward Islanders". It has a ring to it.

 

This.

 

Islander fans are crying about the defeated referendum today but rejecting it was certainly the right move for taxpayers. This was just another screw job between a rich owner who doesn't want to pony up for his own arena and the crooked politicians who are looking for a payoff. Meanwhile, taxpayers would get back $14MM per year to take on $400MM in debt? Yeah, great deal there. As for the 'local economy' argument, if people aren't spending their entertainment dollars at the hockey game, they will spend them at the movies, or the restaurants or the baseball game or whatever else is happening locally. I'm pretty sure Islander fans won't be hiding their season ticket money in their mattresses from now on.

 

And let's be honest about the Islanders. They weren't having any problems before this idiot purchased the team and started handing out ridiculous contracts to guys like Yashin and DiPietro. They still have a die hard fan base and there's no reason they can't turn that franchise around with a decent owner.

[shrader]

This.

 

Islander fans are crying about the defeated referendum today but rejecting it was certainly the right move for taxpayers. This was just another screw job between a rich owner who doesn't want to pony up for his own arena and the crooked politicians who are looking for a payoff. Meanwhile, taxpayers would get back $14MM per year to take on $400MM in debt? Yeah, great deal there. As for the 'local economy' argument, if people aren't spending their entertainment dollars at the hockey game, they will spend them at the movies, or the restaurants or the baseball game or whatever else is happening locally. I'm pretty sure Islander fans won't be hiding their season ticket money in their mattresses from now on.

 

And let's be honest about the Islanders. They weren't having any problems before this idiot purchased the team and started handing out ridiculous contracts to guys like Yashin and DiPietro. They still have a die hard fan base and there's no reason they can't turn that franchise around with a decent owner.

 

You may want to read up on the events that lead to Wang-Kumar purchasing the team in the first place, specifically John Spano.

[BetweenThePipes00]

This.

 

Islander fans are crying about the defeated referendum today but rejecting it was certainly the right move for taxpayers. This was just another screw job between a rich owner who doesn't want to pony up for his own arena and the crooked politicians who are looking for a payoff. Meanwhile, taxpayers would get back $14MM per year to take on $400MM in debt? Yeah, great deal there. As for the 'local economy' argument, if people aren't spending their entertainment dollars at the hockey game, they will spend them at the movies, or the restaurants or the baseball game or whatever else is happening locally. I'm pretty sure Islander fans won't be hiding their season ticket money in their mattresses from now on.

 

And let's be honest about the Islanders. They weren't having any problems before this idiot purchased the team and started handing out ridiculous contracts to guys like Yashin and DiPietro. They still have a die hard fan base and there's no reason they can't turn that franchise around with a decent owner.

 

 

You may want to read up on the events that lead to Wang-Kumar purchasing the team in the first place, specifically John Spano.

 

Yeah Wang has done crazy things, but he inherited a horrible lease that has handcuffed them as salaries have risen ... it would have messed with any owner. Wang only bought the team because they convinced him he could develop all kinds of land around the arena, but every time he tried to do something (even non-Islanders related) he got shot down on zoning issues by teh local government. He may be a hockey moron, but he was sold a bill of goods by those who convinced him to buy that team.

[Andrew Amerk]

The answer is quite simple.

 

Bring back the Gorton's fisherman.

[Eleven]

Yeah Wang has done crazy things, but he inherited a horrible lease that has handcuffed them as salaries have risen ... it would have messed with any owner. Wang only bought the team because they convinced him he could develop all kinds of land around the arena, but every time he tried to do something (even non-Islanders related) he got shot down on zoning issues by teh local government. He may be a hockey moron, but he was sold a bill of goods by those who convinced him to buy that team.

 

Pipes, do tell more. I haven't heard this part of the story before. Anything you can link (not out of doubt, but because this is interesting)?

[Tyrannustyrannus]

Its funny, because most NYCers have never looked at a map an realized Brooklyn and Queens are a part of Long Island. I'm not even kidding.

 

on the Other hand, the Islanders logo is a map of Nassau and Suffolk counties. They would have to fix that.

 

We'd all probably sit at home and watch Sabres games from our couch if they had to play in a dump like the Nassau Coliseum. Most of the Hockey fans I knew in NYC were Islanders fans, believe it or not.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Pipes, do tell more. I haven't heard this part of the story before. Anything you can link (not out of doubt, but because this is interesting)?

 

I didn't know a lot of it either until I read this last week ... http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/862/no-place-like-home ... I posted it in the Around the NHL but it got lost in the wash. This gets to the heart of what Wang is dealing with:

 

In 1985, two years after Mike Bossy & Co. won their fourth straight Stanley Cup, then-owner John Pickett signed two documents: a monster TV deal with Cablevision, and an equally monster 30-year lease designed to keep the team in the building through 2015. Which would have all been just fine, if it weren't for the terms. With Nassau County owning the building, and an arena management company called SMG raking in much of the ticket sale revenue and all of the concession dollars, there's been very little left over by way of revenue for the franchise itself. As the years went by and salaries began to balloon, what began as a nuisance became arguably the most handicapping lease arrangement in professional sports. The Islanders could theoretically sell out every game every night and lose money regardless.

 

Given those sterling financials, buyers weren't exactly storming the gates when the team went up for sale in 2000 after a failed attempt by the previous ownership to oust SMG from The Coliseum. Former Senator Alphonse D'Amato, a board member of Computer Associates, convinced the company's chairman, Charles Wang, to purchase the team, citing vast untapped potential for a development deal around the arena.

 

In the 11 years since, Wang has sunk an estimated $230 million to $240 million of his own cash into the team — more than $50 million more than he paid to buy it in the first place. And yet he does not own the rink that the Islanders play on, nor the land that it stands on. He and his team are really just tenants. As anyone who has ever rented would tell you, if you need a new roof, or a new faucet, or, perhaps, a new 18,000-seat arena, you ask your landlord to get one.

 

In this case, the landlord is Nassau County, which means it's up to the taxpayers Monday. Should they vote no, the Islanders will most likely do what any reasonable tenant in desperate need of a new roof would do: wait until their lease is up, then find somewhere better to live.

[Doohickie]

The NHL can't allow the Islanders to move. To have one the NHL's all-time great dynasties move would be a terrible blow. It would be like the A's, Bears or Reds jumping to new cities. It can't be allowed.

Or the Colts?

 

I'm currently reading Counsel in the Crease, a memoir by Robert Swados, the Knox's lawyer and part of the original ownership group (albeit a very small part). He wielded serious power in the NHL as league secretary and league counsel during the first couple of decades of the Sabres' existence. Among other things, he wrote 24 conditions that needed to be met for a team to relocate, ensuring that all avenues were exhausted in a team's current city before they allowed it to move. When teams struggled, the league worked diligently to keep the team in place if at all possible.

 

When Gary Bettman took over as Commissioner, he viewed the existing rules on relocation as "crazy" (and not likely to stand up in court) and he adopted a more liberal approach to teams moving. I'm not sure what the current standard is.

 

I think Counsel in the Crease is locally published (or perhaps self-published). I only got a copy because I work with Swados's great nephew. It's not the best written or produced book, but it provides a very interesting insight into the workings of the league back in the day. Swados goes back to his service in WWII, his efforts (successful) to bring NBC television to Buffalo in the 50s (after starting a rival network that didn't ultimately survive), and discusses unsuccessful bids to bring Major League Baseball to Buffalo (I had no idea we were so close to getting the Montreal Expos). He also discusses the Braves and the reasons they did not survive. The Knox brothers really were model expansion club owners.

 

If you run across a copy of the book, it's worth a read.

[Andrew Amerk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclays_Center

 

Maybe they could become the Brooklyn Islanders?

[Overeducated Homer]

Or the Colts?

 

 

Or the Browns...

 

And heck, considering that the A's were a tradition-rich but cash-poor team when they left Philadelphia in the 1950s, they don't much help DeLuca's case either....

[Doohickie]

Plenty of examples really.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Or the Colts?

 

I'm currently reading Counsel in the Crease, a memoir by Robert Swados, the Knox's lawyer and part of the original ownership group (albeit a very small part). He wielded serious power in the NHL as league secretary and league counsel during the first couple of decades of the Sabres' existence. Among other things, he wrote 24 conditions that needed to be met for a team to relocate, ensuring that all avenues were exhausted in a team's current city before they allowed it to move. When teams struggled, the league worked diligently to keep the team in place if at all possible.

 

When Gary Bettman took over as Commissioner, he viewed the existing rules on relocation as "crazy" (and not likely to stand up in court) and he adopted a more liberal approach to teams moving. I'm not sure what the current standard is.

 

I think Counsel in the Crease is locally published (or perhaps self-published). I only got a copy because I work with Swados's great nephew. It's not the best written or produced book, but it provides a very interesting insight into the workings of the league back in the day. Swados goes back to his service in WWII, his efforts (successful) to bring NBC television to Buffalo in the 50s (after starting a rival network that didn't ultimately survive), and discusses unsuccessful bids to bring Major League Baseball to Buffalo (I had no idea we were so close to getting the Montreal Expos). He also discusses the Braves and the reasons they did not survive. The Knox brothers really were model expansion club owners.

 

If you run across a copy of the book, it's worth a read.

 

out of curiosity, what were the 24 rules?

[Eleven]

I didn't know a lot of it either until I read this last week ... http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/862/no-place-like-home ... I posted it in the Around the NHL but it got lost in the wash. This gets to the heart of what Wang is dealing with:

 

Wow. That is definitely a side of the story I had not read before. Thanks. For all of his stupid deals, I now feel somewhat sorry for Wang.

 

 

Or the Colts?

 

I'm currently reading Counsel in the Crease, a memoir by Robert Swados, the Knox's lawyer and part of the original ownership group (albeit a very small part). He wielded serious power in the NHL as league secretary and league counsel during the first couple of decades of the Sabres' existence. Among other things, he wrote 24 conditions that needed to be met for a team to relocate, ensuring that all avenues were exhausted in a team's current city before they allowed it to move. When teams struggled, the league worked diligently to keep the team in place if at all possible.

 

When Gary Bettman took over as Commissioner, he viewed the existing rules on relocation as "crazy" (and not likely to stand up in court) and he adopted a more liberal approach to teams moving. I'm not sure what the current standard is.

 

I think Counsel in the Crease is locally published (or perhaps self-published). I only got a copy because I work with Swados's great nephew. It's not the best written or produced book, but it provides a very interesting insight into the workings of the league back in the day. Swados goes back to his service in WWII, his efforts (successful) to bring NBC television to Buffalo in the 50s (after starting a rival network that didn't ultimately survive), and discusses unsuccessful bids to bring Major League Baseball to Buffalo (I had no idea we were so close to getting the Montreal Expos). He also discusses the Braves and the reasons they did not survive. The Knox brothers really were model expansion club owners.

 

If you run across a copy of the book, it's worth a read.

 

It is so freaking self-indulgent that it seems like Swados invented bandy and shinny, brought them across the Atlantic to Canada and renamed them hockey, convinced Lord Stanley to sponsor a trophy, and brought a franchise to Buffalo.

 

Ok, maybe not quite that bad, but still. It's a little over the top. You were the team's lawyer, bud; not the team owner.

 

It is published by a local publisher, Prometheus, but it is a legit publisher and not a "vanity" publisher or a publisher specializing in self-promoted works. It is available new on amazon or used from this poster. (KIdding; I'm keeping it.)