Should the Sabres have paid what NJ paid for Kovy?

[nfreeman]

I voted no, although I must admit that it would've been exciting. Here's my thinking: paying this steep of a price makes more sense for NJ than for the Sabres because:

 

1. Brodeur's window is closing.

 

2. Oduya is 28 and in his 4th full season, while Butler is 23 and in his 1st full season -- so his upside isn't known (although to be fair Butler also hasn't proven himself to be as steady and reliable as Oduya is). Given his ice time, indications are that the Sabres see Butler as an important piece.

 

3. The Devils were closer (pre-Kovy) to a Cup contender this year than the Sabres are -- their best defenseman isn't a rookie, Parise and Elias are better than any of the Sabres' forwards, they have good veteran leadership up front with those 2 plus Langenbrunner and Rolston, etc.

 

Bottom line is that I think they will make a deadline deal, but that DR thinks long-term, and this kind of reach didn't fit with the plan.

[PASabreFan]

It was close, but I voted no. Lindy Ruff is the key to the question -- enough said.

 

nfreeman, this "long-term" business is fine, but exactly when does "long-term" meet "goal achieved"? Remember -- LQ has stated that the organization's goal is to win a Cup. Did he also put a timetable on it? "Within five years"? I don't trust my memory any more.

 

Does every team have that goal? I guess. But LQ came out and said it. We have a billionaire owner, too. And, I don't know, the chemistry of tradition, a hockey town, close calls in the past -- it should add up to a Cup, some day, some how. What's missing? The stomach to go for it, the stomach to demand it. Look how beaten down the fans are.

 

Getting Kovy could have blown up in our face, or could have delivered us. You won't know unless you try.

 

By the way, Darcy's comments in the paper today made me want to puke. Seriously.

[static70]

It was close, but I voted no. Lindy Ruff is the key to the question -- enough said.

 

nfreeman, this "long-term" business is fine, but exactly when does "long-term" meet "goal achieved"? Remember -- LQ has stated that the organization's goal is to win a Cup. Did he also put a timetable on it? "Within five years"? I don't trust my memory any more.

 

Does every team have that goal? I guess. But LQ came out and said it. We have a billionaire owner, too. And, I don't know, the chemistry of tradition, a hockey town, close calls in the past -- it should add up to a Cup, some day, some how. What's missing? The stomach to go for it, the stomach to demand it. Look how beaten down the fans are.

 

Getting Kovy could have blown up in our face, or could have delivered us. You won't know unless you try.

 

By the way, Darcy's comments in the paper today made me want to puke. Seriously.

As much as I touted (I know PA, screamed is more the word) Kovy to Buffalo, I have to agree, I would have walked from the table for that rental price as well. But, my concern wasn't the price, it was the fact Darcy didn't even make an effort to reach out and attempt to negotiate. People tend to speculate on what specific components the Sabres would have had to of offered, this, as with any negotiation is subject to opinion.

 

As for the article this morning, ya, he pretty much disgusts me as well. Which leaves me wondering as well, what is the "master plan" here for the organization to bring a Cup or 2 to the city?

[deluca67]

Only in Buffalo can bringing in one of the most talented hockey players in the world be considered a bad thing. :doh:

 

And I am getting really tired of hearing about "the Plan." "The Plan" has missed the playoffs five of the last seven years. It's time for a new plan that should include not being afraid to add actual talent to the roster. People can fool themselves all they want into believing the same old excuses spouted by Regier and Quinn. If this team goes one and done in the playoffs changes need to be made. Sadly, much like the Bills, there is no effective ownership in place to over see the changes needed.

[nobody]

All I know is that you have the Caps, right now, being the top team in the conference and maybe in the league. You have Ottawa looking unbeatable. You now add a huge scoring threat into the mix with one of the top goalies ever in NJ. Oh, did I mention the current Stanley Cup champs yet? If Darcy isn't going to do anything then Lindy is going to have to work miracles with what he has and pray that the those teams take each other out somehow before the Sabres have to play them.

[nucci]

I think a lot will depend on if the Devils can sign him after this year.

[LabattBlue]

Only in Buffalo can bringing in one of the most talented hockey players in the world be considered a bad thing. :doh:

 

And I am getting really tired of hearing about "the Plan." "The Plan" has missed the playoffs five of the last seven years. It's time for a new plan that should include not being afraid to add actual talent to the roster. People can fool themselves all they want into believing the same old excuses spouted by Regier and Quinn. If this team goes one and done in the playoffs changes need to be made. Sadly, much like the Bills, there is no effective ownership in place to over see the changes needed.

 

"The Plan" should be initiated in the offseason, not in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline when the sellers have the buyers over a barrel. This past summer I advocated trading Roy+, but instead we said goodbye to Teppo, Max, Peters and Kotalik and hello to Kennedy, Montador, Myers and Grier.

 

I'll bang the same drum again this summer....TRADE ROY.

[Kristian]

"The Plan" should be initiated in the offseason, not in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline when the sellers have the buyers over a barrel. This past summer I advocated trading Roy+, but instead we said goodbye to Teppo, Max, Peters and Kotalik and hello to Kennedy, Montador, Myers and Grier.

I'll bang the same drum again this summer....TRADE ROY.

 

What he said.

[nfreeman]

It was close, but I voted no. Lindy Ruff is the key to the question -- enough said.

 

nfreeman, this "long-term" business is fine, but exactly when does "long-term" meet "goal achieved"? Remember -- LQ has stated that the organization's goal is to win a Cup. Did he also put a timetable on it? "Within five years"? I don't trust my memory any more.

 

Does every team have that goal? I guess. But LQ came out and said it. We have a billionaire owner, too. And, I don't know, the chemistry of tradition, a hockey town, close calls in the past -- it should add up to a Cup, some day, some how. What's missing? The stomach to go for it, the stomach to demand it. Look how beaten down the fans are.

 

Getting Kovy could have blown up in our face, or could have delivered us. You won't know unless you try.

 

By the way, Darcy's comments in the paper today made me want to puke. Seriously.

Not sure I understand the comment about Lindy. Are you saying that with a different coach, making the proposed trade for Kovy would've created a better chance for a Cup?

 

As for when we can expect to reach the goal -- this is a very fair question. I think it takes a number of years for a hockey team to become a true Cup contender. There is a lengthy assembly process, and it also takes time for the players to mix with both each other and the coach. The '06 and '07 teams reached that status after being assembled over the prior 3 years ('05-'06 was the 2nd full season for each of Briere and Drury with the Sabres; Dumont's 5th; Grier's 1st; Miller was drafted in 1999; Tallinder and Campbell in 1997; McKee in 1995, etc.). But for a fluky run of injuries to defensemen in the 2006 playoffs, the process would most likely have worked exactly as intended and that giant monkey would be gone from everyone's back.

 

What ownership and management did in butchering that team simply cannot be overlooked. Drury, Briere and Soupy were the 3 best players on the team other than Miller, and McKee, Grier and Dumont were all highly valuable heart-and-soul guys. Their departure left a shell of the prior team in place -- and a team that was solidly in rebuilding mode, just like in 2002 and 2003 after Dominik and Peca left. So, some pieces are added (like Myers, Rivet, Montador and Grier), while others are relied on to develop (like Miller, Gaustad and Kaleta). When important pieces do not develop as hoped (like Pommer, Roy and Vanek), it really hurts. It's an incremental process and approach that doesn't involve splashy, fan-pleasing moves. Of course, that kind of move almost never works -- ask Rangers fans or Habs fans.

 

As far as Darcy's comments this morning -- while I'm not expecting a big move, I also wouldn't put too much credibility into a GM's comments for public consumption about what he intends to do in the upcoming pre-deadline trading season.

 

People tend to speculate on what specific components the Sabres would have had to of offered, this, as with any negotiation is subject to opinion.

Not opinion so much as speculation. In any case, it was reported that NJ didn't want to give up Cornier (the top prospect in the organization), but Waddell insisted.

 

Only in Buffalo can bringing in one of the most talented hockey players in the world be considered a bad thing. :doh:

 

And I am getting really tired of hearing about "the Plan." "The Plan" has missed the playoffs five of the last seven years. It's time for a new plan that should include not being afraid to add actual talent to the roster. People can fool themselves all they want into believing the same old excuses spouted by Regier and Quinn. If this team goes one and done in the playoffs changes need to be made. Sadly, much like the Bills, there is no effective ownership in place to over see the changes needed.

Obtuse. No one is saying bringing in Kovy would've been a bad thing. The question is whether the price would've been too high.

 

And the whole "missed the playoffs 5 out of 7 years" is obtuse as well, for reasons discussed all too often in the past. When given the opportunity to work, the "Plan" has worked very well.

[X. Benedict]

I think a lot will depend on if the Devils can sign him after this year.

 

Is he willing to play for 5 million and skate on a line with Andrew Peters? :)

[deluca67]

"The Plan" should be initiated in the offseason, not in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline when the sellers have the buyers over a barrel. This past summer I advocated trading Roy+, but instead we said goodbye to Teppo, Max, Peters and Kotalik and hello to Kennedy, Montador, Myers and Grier.

 

I'll bang the same drum again this summer....TRADE ROY.

Jersey got one the league's top scorers for next to nothing. There was no barrel in sight. The GM's that win Stanley Cups are the GM's that get things done. Not the ones that continually talk about "plans" no matter how much that "plan" fails year after year. Lou L. In New Jersey has one plan and it is the same plan every year, win the Stanley Cup. Burke in Toronto has one plan, win the Stanley Cup. Shero in Pittsburgh has the same plan. It's time for Regier to scrap his failed plan and adopt the plan of winning GM's. Build a team to win the Cup not just a team to be carried into the playoffs by their goalie.

[static70]

I tend to agree with PA and DeLuca here.

 

The plan "has not" worked in Buffalo. To back up that statement all one has to do is look up to the rafters in HSBC Arena and that pretty much tells the story here in Buffalo.

 

I have little hope for this team while Darcy and Lindy continue at the helm. And this statement isn't spoken lightly, they have put a product on the ice that was competitive, but they just as quickly tore it apart or let it walk.

 

In the larger picture this season the Sabres will be bounced in the playoffs, most likely in the first round. They will most likely face Pitt, Wash, NJ or Ott, all Sabre killing teams. But hey, "there's always next season" :wallbash:

[X. Benedict]

I tend to agree with PA and DeLuca here.

 

The plan "has not" worked in Buffalo. To back up that statement all one has to do is look up to the rafters in HSBC Arena and that pretty much tells the story here in Buffalo.

 

I have little hope for this team while Darcy and Lindy continue at the helm. And this statement isn't spoken lightly, they have put a product on the ice that was competitive, but they just as quickly tore it apart or let it walk.

 

In the larger picture this season the Sabres will be bounced in the playoffs, most likely in the first round. They will most likely face Pitt, Wash, NJ or Ott, all Sabre killing teams. But hey, "there's always next season" :wallbash:

It's February and you are already doing an autopsy on their first round loss?

[inkman]

The GM's that win Stanley Cups are the GM's that get things done.

Like the GM's for Philly, NYR, and Montreal? You know...the real movers and shakers...

 

The only team I can think of that wins signing any big name FA is Detroit. The only reason it works with them is that they have a solid core BUILT THROUGH THE DRAFT. I know you don't want to hear it, but this is how teams win in all major sports. Overpaying for prolific players just doesn't work.

[freester]

Not sure I understand the comment about Lindy. Are you saying that with a different coach, making the proposed trade for Kovy would've created a better chance for a Cup?

 

As for when we can expect to reach the goal -- this is a very fair question. I think it takes a number of years for a hockey team to become a true Cup contender. There is a lengthy assembly process, and it also takes time for the players to mix with both each other and the coach. The '06 and '07 teams reached that status after being assembled over the prior 3 years ('05-'06 was the 2nd full season for each of Briere and Drury with the Sabres; Dumont's 5th; Grier's 1st; Miller was drafted in 1999; Tallinder and Campbell in 1997; McKee in 1995, etc.). But for a fluky run of injuries to defensemen in the 2006 playoffs, the process would most likely have worked exactly as intended and that giant monkey would be gone from everyone's back.

 

What ownership and management did in butchering that team simply cannot be overlooked. Drury, Briere and Soupy were the 3 best players on the team other than Miller, and McKee, Grier and Dumont were all highly valuable heart-and-soul guys. Their departure left a shell of the prior team in place -- and a team that was solidly in rebuilding mode, just like in 2002 and 2003 after Dominik and Peca left. So, some pieces are added (like Myers, Rivet, Montador and Grier), while others are relied on to develop (like Miller, Gaustad and Kaleta). When important pieces do not develop as hoped (like Pommer, Roy and Vanek), it really hurts. It's an incremental process and approach that doesn't involve splashy, fan-pleasing moves. Of course, that kind of move almost never works -- ask Rangers fans or Habs fans.

 

As far as Darcy's comments this morning -- while I'm not expecting a big move, I also wouldn't put too much credibility into a GM's comments for public consumption about what he intends to do in the upcoming pre-deadline trading season.

 

 

Not opinion so much as speculation. In any case, it was reported that NJ didn't want to give up Cornier (the top prospect in the organization), but Waddell insisted.

 

 

Obtuse. No one is saying bringing in Kovy would've been a bad thing. The question is whether the price would've been too high.

 

And the whole "missed the playoffs 5 out of 7 years" is obtuse as well, for reasons discussed all too often in the past. When given the opportunity to work, the "Plan" has worked very well.

For all your obtuse arguments, you are missing the point. With our current limited offense, we are not a contender. With Kovy, we would have been one of the favorites to win the cup. He is exactly what we needed in terms of scoring. To have success in the playoffs, might have spurred Kovy to resign with the sabres. (assuming we could dump Vanek's salary on someone)

[shrader]

It's February and you are already doing an autopsy on their first round loss?

 

I'm more worried about the first line of his post. I'm just about ready to go look outside to see if it's raining frogs and if the Atlantic turned into blood.

[inkman]

With Kovy, we would have been one of the favorites to win the cup.

I will stab myself in the dick and post it on youtube if that loser wins a cup.

[nfreeman]

For all your obtuse arguments, you are missing the point. With our current limited offense, we are not a contender. With Kovy, we would have been one of the favorites to win the cup. He is exactly what we needed in terms of scoring. To have success in the playoffs, might have spurred Kovy to resign with the sabres. (assuming we could dump Vanek's salary on someone)

There is zero chance Kovy would've resigned with the Sabres. And flashy offense doesn't win Cups. Team defense, goaltending, special teams, clutch play and blood and guts are what wins Cups.

 

As for whether the Sabres are a contender: right now they are 4-4-1 against Washington, NJ and Pittsburgh. They are in a bit of a rut right now, just like every team goes through at some point, and I agree that they need elite-level scoring from somewhere. But they are a good, solid team, with excellent goaltending and coaching, and showing signs of life from the top 2 lines. Vanek in particular, who is supposed to be their elite guy, is coming around -- I thought he looked very good against Ottawa.

 

I think this team is being rebuilt well, is young and is going to be in contending position for the next few years. It needs some tinkering and some guys to step up -- not a panicky move for a rental.

[Sabre Dance]

There is zero chance Kovy would've resigned with the Sabres. And flashy offense doesn't win Cups. Team defense, goaltending, special teams, clutch play and blood and guts are what wins Cups.

 

As for whether the Sabres are a contender: right now they are 4-4-1 against Washington, NJ and Pittsburgh. They are in a bit of a rut right now, just like every team goes through at some point, and I agree that they need elite-level scoring from somewhere. But they are a good, solid team, with excellent goaltending and coaching, and showing signs of life from the top 2 lines. Vanek in particular, who is supposed to be their elite guy, is coming around -- I thought he looked very good against Ottawa.

 

I think this team is being rebuilt well, is young and is going to be in contending position for the next few years. It needs some tinkering and some guys to step up -- not a panicky move for a rental.

 

So Pittsburgh didn't need Crosby or Malkin to win the Cup last year... Detroit didn't need to bring in Hossa to make it to the Finals, either. That's good, 'cause the Sabres don't have any players at that talent level. So, they should be a shoe-in for the Finals this year, right?

 

Yep, Vanek is looking real good right now - and the team still lost to the Penguins and the Senators.

 

Of course, the team rebuild is going great, too. Funny thing, though; I can't seem to find the players in the Buffalo system that fall into the Ovy, Crosby, Kovy, Kane, Brodeur, etc. category. Maybe I missed something? We have Miller, Vanek, Myers and maybe Connolly. Everyone else is a different shade of average. Yep, the rebuild is going great.

 

"We're gonna win that Cup! We're going to win that Stanley Cup!"

[X. Benedict]

I'm more worried about the first line of his post. I'm just about ready to go look outside to see if it's raining frogs and if the Atlantic turned into blood.

 

Sure signs the end is nigh.

[freester]

There is zero chance Kovy would've resigned with the Sabres. And flashy offense doesn't win Cups. Team defense, goaltending, special teams, clutch play and blood and guts are what wins Cups.

 

As for whether the Sabres are a contender: right now they are 4-4-1 against Washington, NJ and Pittsburgh. They are in a bit of a rut right now, just like every team goes through at some point, and I agree that they need elite-level scoring from somewhere. But they are a good, solid team, with excellent goaltending and coaching, and showing signs of life from the top 2 lines. Vanek in particular, who is supposed to be their elite guy, is coming around -- I thought he looked very good against Ottawa.

 

I think this team is being rebuilt well, is young and is going to be in contending position for the next few years. It needs some tinkering and some guys to step up -- not a panicky move for a rental.

Vanek is not an elite scorer. He does not remotely compare to Kovy. Miller is tiring out from playing too much. You need elite players (other than goalie) to win the cup. We don't have any.

[PASabreFan]

Sure signs the end is nigh.

 

Grow a set already. My God, are you Darcy Marcy? Is this what he does in his spare time? Seriously, you're the Poster Boy for Mediocrity.

 

If you don't understand why fans are a lot more skeptical about this team after the last several weeks -- the most worrisome trend being Miller's decline -- you haven't been watching too closely.

[Skibum]

If he could be signed long-term, yes. If not, no.

[nfreeman]

So Pittsburgh didn't need Crosby or Malkin to win the Cup last year... Detroit didn't need to bring in Hossa to make it to the Finals, either. That's good, 'cause the Sabres don't have any players at that talent level. So, they should be a shoe-in for the Finals this year, right?

 

Yep, Vanek is looking real good right now - and the team still lost to the Penguins and the Senators.

 

Of course, the team rebuild is going great, too. Funny thing, though; I can't seem to find the players in the Buffalo system that fall into the Ovy, Crosby, Kovy, Kane, Brodeur, etc. category. Maybe I missed something? We have Miller, Vanek, Myers and maybe Connolly. Everyone else is a different shade of average. Yep, the rebuild is going great.

 

"We're gonna win that Cup! We're going to win that Stanley Cup!"

Although this post is fairly incoherent, I think you mean that teams need elite players to win Cups. I don't disagree with this (although I'll also note that Detroit and Pittsburgh both won it without Hossa, and plenty of excellent players -- like Kovy, for instance, and Ovechkin -- haven't won anything in the playoffs).

 

Here's my response: Miller is an elite player, Myers is likely to get there and Vanek, although certainly not so far this year, might get there. That's your Vezina contender, Norris contender and Richard contender right there. You surround those 3 with good complementary players, play good defense and then you're in the hunt every year. You are right that it won't work if those guys don't deliver.

 

As for how the rebuild is going: the Sabres, after missing the playoffs for 2 years in a row, are on pace to finish with 106 points and win their division, and are #3 in the NHL in GA. This is AFTER their worst 8-game stretch of the year.

 

Vanek is not an elite scorer. He does not remotely compare to Kovy. Miller is tiring out from playing too much. You need elite players (other than goalie) to win the cup. We don't have any.

Kovy's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 29, 38, 41, 52. (total: 160; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)

Vanek's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 25, 43, 36, 40. (total: 144; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

[static70]

 

 

Kovy's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 29, 38, 41, 52. (total: 160; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)

Vanek's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 25, 43, 36, 40. (total: 144; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).

Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.

Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.

To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.