Should the Sabres have paid what NJ paid for Kovy?

[nobody]

What exactly would he be "destroying?" Is he going to somehow damage Ryan Miller or Myers? Those are the only two pieces worth saving on this roster? Do you think because he is here that players like Vanek, Roy and Pominville will start taking nights off? That happens already. Is the team going to play soft. They can't can't play any softer. Is he going to hurt the defense? 3 of the 6 deserve to be benched for the rest of the season. What is he "destroying?"

 

 

And isn't this would you have a head coach for? To take whatever pieces are given to you and make sure they play the game that fits best for the team.

[nfreeman]

What exactly would he be "destroying?" Is he going to somehow damage Ryan Miller or Myers? Those are the only two pieces worth saving on this roster? Do you think because he is here that players like Vanek, Roy and Pominville will start taking nights off? That happens already. Is the team going to play soft. They can't can't play any softer. Is he going to hurt the defense? 3 of the 6 deserve to be benched for the rest of the season. What is he "destroying?"

The only difference is that one GM is focused on winning another Stanley Cup and one GM doesn't see the Stanley Cup as a goal.

Starting to get whacked-out...

 

...or maybe one GM realizes that his team is still another year away and doesn't want to take on a very expensive rental? ;)

There we go.

[PASabreFan]

...or maybe one GM realizes that his team is still another year away and doesn't want to take on a very expensive rental? ;)

 

How are the Sabres contenders 12 months from now if they're not today. Miller is having a career season. Does he have more to give? I think we both agree the Fab Five are who we thought they were. Myers could and probably should be even better, but maybe he's in a sophomore slump by then -- or he's exactly what he is now: outstanding. Are Butler and Sekera all of a sudden defensive studs? Has Kennedy been good enough to think in another year he's a cog in a Cup run? Factor in inevitable offseason losses, and Darcy's inability or unwillingess to add much. What's down on the farm?

 

Convince me.

[LabattBlue]

How are the Sabres contenders 12 months from now if they're not today. Miller is having a career season. Does he have more to give? I think we both agree the Fab Five are who we thought they were. Myers could and probably should be even better, but maybe he's in a sophomore slump by then -- or he's exactly what he is now: outstanding. Are Butler and Sekera all of a sudden defensive studs? Has Kennedy been good enough to think in another year he's a cog in a Cup run? Factor in inevitable offseason losses, and Darcy's inability or unwillingess to add much. What's down on the farm?

 

Convince me.

If they truly do a top to bottom review of the organization this offseason(like they said they were going to do last offseason) and then make some significant moves, they can be a Cup contender in 10-11.

 

Doing a thorough review and then signing some mid tier FA(Montador and Grier), promote one guy from the AHL(Kennedy) and have a 19 year old kid surprise for a roster spot, is NOT what I would call significant.

 

They have got maybe a 4 year window while Miller is in his prime to take runs at the Cup and the time to get the rest of the team at that level begins this offseason.

[inkman]

What exactly would he be "destroying?" Is he going to somehow damage Ryan Miller or Myers? Those are the only two pieces worth saving on this roster? Do you think because he is here that players like Vanek, Roy and Pominville will start taking nights off? That happens already. Is the team going to play soft. They can't can't play any softer. Is he going to hurt the defense? 3 of the 6 deserve to be benched for the rest of the season. What is he "destroying?"

Seeing what the Devils gave up, I would have taken a flier on Ilya as long as Kassian wasn't involved. I wouldn't want to tie my franchise to him (or Vanek FWIW) but as a rental for a cup run, sure. Paul Hamilton and the like were throwing around ridiculous asking prices for Kovulchuk. Two or three roster players, two or three prospects and draft picks. Had I known Butler, Stafford, Ennis and a #1 pick would have fetched him, why not?

[nfreeman]

How are the Sabres contenders 12 months from now if they're not today. Miller is having a career season. Does he have more to give? I think we both agree the Fab Five are who we thought they were. Myers could and probably should be even better, but maybe he's in a sophomore slump by then -- or he's exactly what he is now: outstanding. Are Butler and Sekera all of a sudden defensive studs? Has Kennedy been good enough to think in another year he's a cog in a Cup run? Factor in inevitable offseason losses, and Darcy's inability or unwillingess to add much. What's down on the farm?

 

Convince me.

Good post. I'll take a crack at it:

 

1. Myers will (probably) be better, as will Kennedy, Butler, Sekera and Stafford. That's 5 of the top 18 skaters.

 

2. Grier, Kennedy and Montador (ie 3 of the top 18) were new additions to this year's team.

 

3. The Sabres have 7 forwards and 5 defensemen (and 1 goalie) under contract for next year (plus the guys in Portland).

 

4. Lydman, Tallinder, Grier, Ellis, Paetsch and Lalime are all UFA, while MacArthur, Kennedy and Kaleta are all RFAs. While I think all of the RFAs will be back, I wouldn't be surprised if Mac were traded. As for the UFAs, I think all will be gone except maybe Grier and/or Ellis. (I think the Sabres want to see how Grier, who is 35, holds up through the end of the year and the playoffs before deciding whether to make him an offer.) So, in the top 18 skaters, I expect to see at least 1 new top-6 defenseman and 2 new top-12 forwards.

 

5. To be clear, I'm not expecting a splashy UFA move like Gaborik or Kovy (although I do expect a ton of complaining here about the failure to occur of same). I'm kinda expecting a 2nd-round playoff exit, DR and LR coming back next year, and DR continuing to tinker in the offseason, with successful results for next year.

[Two or less]

Seeing what the Devils gave up, I would have taken a flier on Ilya as long as Kassian wasn't involved. I wouldn't want to tie my franchise to him (or Vanek FWIW) but as a rental for a cup run, sure. Paul Hamilton and the like were throwing around ridiculous asking prices for Kovulchuk. Two or three roster players, two or three prospects and draft picks. Had I known Butler, Stafford, Ennis and a #1 pick would have fetched him, why not?

 

I would do it as well, but only if it's a off-season move. Only if we can have Kovy for a full season before he leaves as a free agent. Like i posted earlier in this thread, not many big time additions make am impact with their team. Even Marian Hossa, scored like 3 goals in 13 games for Pittsburgh.... but he did turn it up in the playoffs. It's very rare a player comes from a trade and makes an impact. So, I do agree with Regier's logic of "building the team in the off-season" and only adding to it mid-season. However, Atlanta was still hoping to re-sign him long term in the off-season and thus that offer would have been rejected.

[Lethbridge Broncos]

Of course the Devils will resign Kovy.

 

With aging stars and money to spend -- he is the future.

 

 

 

NJ is now 1 and 2 since Kovy arrived, with the sole win arising when they scored 3 goals in the last 2 minutes against the Leafs.

 

 

1. The Sabres are spending more this year than NJ is, even with Kovy.

 

2. The Devils are almost certainly not going to re-sign Kovy.

 

 

Because your 2nd-best defenseman (assuming it would've been Butler for the reasons discussed above and not Lydman or Rivet), your best prospect, a #1 and a likely 20-goal scoring young forward is a steep price to pay for a rental. If he were going to sign an extension, it's a different story.

[Two or less]

Of course the Devils will resign Kovy.

 

With aging stars and money to spend -- he is the future.

 

There is no chance they re-sign Kovy.

[nfreeman]

Of course the Devils will resign Kovy.

 

With aging stars and money to spend -- he is the future.

Well, no one in the national or NYC hockey media seems to think so, but hey! It's a free country.

 

In all seriousness, there are quite a few reasons 4this won't happen:

 

1. They already have 10 forwards under contract for next year, including Elias, Zajac, Zubrus and Rolston, all with big deals for at least 2 more years (also including Peters -- I'm still amazed he got a 2-year deal).

 

2. Their best forward, Parise, is an RFA after next year and they are going to want to extend him this summer.

 

3. Their best defenseman (Paul Martin) is a UFA after this year and they want to re-sign him. (BTW, I'd love for the Sabres to take a run at him).

 

4. The Devils don't give flashy scorers $10MM contracts.

 

5. I'd guess Kovy wants to go to a winner where the building is full and loud on a consistent basis. NJ is a winning franchise, but that arena is half-empty and very quiet most nights.

 

6. NJ is cold, traffic-choked and has high taxes.

 

7. Lamoriello has said he's not thinking about re-signing Kovy -- check it out.

 

 

 

Lamoriello said that re-signing Kovalchuk is not on the immediate horizon. That is not the thought process at this time," Lamoriello said. "What we want to do is just get him here, get him into the environment, get him into the lineup, see what he brings, [let him] see what we bring. . . . In the next couple of weeks get an acquaintance.

[darksabre]

I bet Kovalchuk goes to the Rangers in the offseason. Just because it fits their M.O.

[LabattBlue]

Good post. I'll take a crack at it:

1. Myers will (probably) be better, as will Kennedy, Butler, Sekera and Stafford. That's 5 of the top 18 skaters.

This is the DR/LR mentality. "All the players they have today, will be better tomorrow." Why, I don't know?

 

I can see Myers getting better along with Kennedy, but I have question marks about Butler, Sekera & Stafford(the latter being the biggest question mark in terms of improvement).

 

The same goes for the rest of the FAB 5. Even if you don't count 05-06 and 06-07 when some here will tell you their success was due to D&B, which of the guys has shown improvement over the last 3 years since the playoff runs? Look at the numbers and think of their play since the beginning of 07-08 and tell me that Roy, Stafford, Connolly, Pominville or Vanek are better players than they were 3 years ago?

 

To a lesser extent, the same question goes out about Gaustad, Tallinder & Lydman.

 

 

Not only are all the above not getting better, in some cases they are getting worse.

 

The only exception is Miller with his play this year.

 

Unless changes are made to the top 6, the concerns about this being a serious Cup contender will remain.

[Lethbridge Broncos]

I like your post and think you laid out the argument pretty well. HOwever, your answer will ONLY be known this playoff. YOur three (3) time period will be tested when these guys get a chance for playoff hockey -- something the SAbres have missed for a few seasons. Playoffs will show who is a keeper, a dreamer, a loafer or a waste. SOme players are made in the playoffs and heros are developed overnight. Guys like Stafford could go buck wild. Sekara could. MAybe McCarthur will suck in the playoffs with the pressure. SO, save your post for after the first playoff series. Then you see if there has been an improvement after three seasons under a pressure situation. This teams is more built for playoff wins. They still need a few character guys and one large center to lean on the pens or caps centericemen when the time comes.

 

 

 

 

This is the DR/LR mentality. "All the players they have today, will be better tomorrow." Why, I don't know?

 

I can see Myers getting better along with Kennedy, but I have question marks about Butler, Sekera & Stafford(the latter being the biggest question mark in terms of improvement).

 

The same goes for the rest of the FAB 5. Even if you don't count 05-06 and 06-07 when some here will tell you their success was due to D&B, which of the guys has shown improvement over the last 3 years since the playoff runs? Look at the numbers and think of their play since the beginning of 07-08 and tell me that Roy, Stafford, Connolly, Pominville or Vanek are better players than they were 3 years ago?

 

To a lesser extent, the same question goes out about Gaustad, Tallinder & Lydman.

 

 

Not only are all the above not getting better, in some cases they are getting worse.

 

The only exception is Miller with his play this year.

 

Unless changes are made to the top 6, the concerns about this being a serious Cup contender will remain.

[LabattBlue]

Playoffs will show who is a keeper, a dreamer, a loafer or a waste.

Fair enough. Maybe certain guys will step up. I'd love to see it from the FAB 5 along with others.

 

The problem is, will those same players then continue that level of play in 10-11?

[TheChimp]

...or maybe one GM realizes that his team is still another year away and doesn't want to take on a very expensive rental? ;)

A year away? Really? So, this first place in the NE and vying for top seed in the East a month ago stuff was what, then, a fluke?

 

A 50-goal scorer for a package including two actual players and a prospect/pick combo, including pretty much anyone but Vanek, Connolly, Myers, or Miller, again, in a HEARTBEAT. Lamoriello is laughing at anyone who thinks he sacrificed his team's future in this trade, and he's right.

 

(Oh wait was your post a sarcastic joke? Sorry if I misread it)

[static70]

...or maybe one GM realizes that his team is still another year away and doesn't want to take on a very expensive rental? ;)

Let me see if I get this right. Your saying that maybe Darcy and Co. aren't after the cup this season? Is that right? Larry Q stated they were going after the Cup, not only this season, but every season. So, I would be correct (by your thinking, in any event) that the fans shouldn't bother to go to the games or buy the merchandise this season because management won't go after the Cup this season. Is this correct? What about the season ticket holders who bought their tickets prior to the season, I would think they would want an explanation on this thinking, hell, they paid for it.

 

It would be foolish for the organization as a whole to buy into the "there is always next season" mentality. Fans have watched it with the Bills for years now, that dog won't hunt for the Sabres. Tighter bottom line and the fans are pretty hockey wise in this town. So, back to the question at hand, Kovy to the Sabres for what NJ paid. You bet your bippy it would have been worth it. The goal is to win a Stanley Cup, increase fan base support, excite the fan base to garner interest and actually make a run at it.

 

Would this specific trade have damaged the organization short or long term? Hardly, there is plenty to be had in FA and with young talent to field a team and one that would remain competitive. Ruff would see to that. Nope, not buying into "there is always next season" mentality. That ship has sailed a long, long time ago. It was a mistake not to bring Kovy in this season, the organization is gambling the current roster can get it done, I hope they are correct, but as DeLuca points out (and rightfully so) you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[LabattBlue]

A year away? Really? So, this first place in the NE and vying for top seed in the East a month ago stuff was what, then, a fluke?

Let's see where the team is in the standings come April. Oh by the way...have you watched San Jose, Chicago, Vancouver, Pittsburgh and Washington play or do you just look at the standings every day? They are a year away and that is only if DR does his job in the offseason and I don't mean upgrading 4th line, the 5-6 pairing on defense and a backup goalie.

[LabattBlue]

Let me see if I get this right. Your saying that maybe Darcy and Co. aren't after the cup this season? Is that right? Larry Q stated they were going after the Cup, not only this season, but every season. So, I would be correct (by your thinking, in any event) that the fans shouldn't bother to go to the games or buy the merchandise this season because management won't go after the Cup this season. Is this correct? What about the season ticket holders who bought their tickets prior to the season, I would think they would want an explanation on this thinking, hell, they paid for it.

You really believe all the spin that comes out of Quinn's mouth? Of course they would like to win the Cup every year, but IMO, they are not good enough this year to get there.

 

Obviously I was speculating as to what DR is thinking, but is it far fetched to believe that he will not go after any rentals if he feels the team is not that close and/or it would jeopardize the coming years where the team may be stronger?

 

PS I have had season tickets for 10 years now and I'd have no problem if they stood pat at the deadline and chose to improve the team in the offseason instead.

[TheImpact]

no wayyy to much to give up for someone who will leave buffalo after the season anyways

[Eleven]

Seeing what the Devils gave up, I would have taken a flier on Ilya as long as Kassian wasn't involved. I wouldn't want to tie my franchise to him (or Vanek FWIW) but as a rental for a cup run, sure. Paul Hamilton and the like were throwing around ridiculous asking prices for Kovulchuk. Two or three roster players, two or three prospects and draft picks. Had I known Butler, Stafford, Ennis and a #1 pick would have fetched him, why not?

 

Because that deal would have involved Kassian (=Cormier) and not Ennis.

[deluca67]

Because that deal would have involved Kassian (=Cormier) and not Ennis.

Kassian? Did you not know that part of every Sabres physical is the removal of all ######?

[nfreeman]

BTW: NJ lost again last night, making them 1-3 with Kovy (actually 1-2-1, since last night's loss was in OT, but still: 1 win and 3 losses), and they would be 0-4 but for the Leafs falling apart in the last minute of Kovy's first game.

[SwampD]

BTW: NJ lost again last night, making them 1-3 with Kovy (actually 1-2-1, since last night's loss was in OT, but still: 1 win and 3 losses), and they would be 0-4 but for the Leafs falling apart in the last minute of Kovy's first game.

See here.

 

Other than TO, which they won, the others have been tough divisional games. The jury is still out on this trade.

[nfreeman]

The jury is still out on this trade.

You are right, and it will really stay out until the playoff results are in. I did think it was somewhat interesting that there hasn't been much pop yet -- e.g. Kovy did zero last night other than rack up a minus-2. I also think we would've been hearing quite a bit from the "Darcy sucks" crowd if NJ had gone 4-0 with him. But I didn't mean it as an "I told you so" -- neither side in the debate will be entitled to that until NJ's playoffs are over.

[deluca67]

You are right, and it will really stay out until the playoff results are in. I did think it was somewhat interesting that there hasn't been much pop yet -- e.g. Kovy did zero last night other than rack up a minus-2. I also think we would've been hearing quite a bit from the "Darcy sucks" crowd if NJ had gone 4-0 with him. But I didn't mean it as an "I told you so" -- neither side in the debate will be entitled to that until NJ's playoffs are over.

Why would that be? Kovy was brought in to better the Devils chances of wining another Cup. If they end up winning the Cup or not. Lou sent a message that the Devils will be a contender this season. He didn't go on the radio and basically wave a white flag like Regier did. Regier's level of failure this season is based solely on what he does or more likely doesn't do. Kovy's name appearing on Cup doesn't change it either way. That damage is already done.