Should the Sabres have paid what NJ paid for Kovy?

[PASabreFan]

Regards,

 

Mr. Kettle

I'm Pa and Ma Kettle. You're Jack Black. Let's keep this straight.

 

No turf battle here. That's silly.

 

I like that you're all riled up.

 

But I shouldn't have questioned your fanhood.

 

I just get a little annoyed by your, uh, calmness.

[james duncan]

Darcy as Norman Dale: I would hope that you would appreciate us for who we are rather than who we are not. THIS is your team (uhh minus the hope of Jimmy Chitwood deciding to play for us.)

[carpandean]

:censored:

I knew you'd like that one. :nana:

[TheChimp]

I only wish there was a HELL YES! choice.

[carpandean]

NJ is really trying to get their money's worth out of Kovy. Out of 8 minutes worth of PP time, he was on the ice for 7:16. Played a total of 25:05. No points, though.

[VansTheMans]

To be fair, the more accurate analogy for what the Sabres would have given up and what the Devils gave up would be this:

 

Sabres give up: 1st Round, MacArthur, Kassian and Lydman.

 

Devils gave up: 1st Round, Bergfors (compare him to MacArthur), Prospect Cormier (Kassian) and Johnny Oduya (Lydman, except Oduya is signed for a few more seasons).

 

I don't think its fair to compare Oduya (older, stay at home dman) to Butler (puck moving prospect dman).

 

So, would I have given that up to get Kovie? Most likely not. He would never sign here long term, and that would be too high of a price to pay for a rental.

[carpandean]

Bergfors (compare him to MacArthur)

Bergfors is putting up marginally better numbers (3 more assists and +7 higher in two fewer games) as a 22 year old rookie than MacArthur is putting up as a 24 year old with 108 NHL games prior to this season. MacArthur is far more of a known quantity, while Berfors has that great "p" word, "potential", on his side. While the remaining portion is small, Bergfor's salary this year is also just over half of Mac's. In general, I'd say that his value in a trade is quite a bit higher than Mac's.

[Foligno's Nose]

"The Plan" should be initiated in the offseason, not in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline when the sellers have the buyers over a barrel. This past summer I advocated trading Roy+, but instead we said goodbye to Teppo, Max, Peters and Kotalik and hello to Kennedy, Montador, Myers and Grier.

I'll bang the same drum again this summer....TRADE ROY.

 

You can really not complain about these moves and where we are in the standings at this point.

It has not been perfect, but it could be much worse.

[Foligno's Nose]

I will stab myself in the dick and post it on youtube if that loser wins a cup.

It has happened before.

[nfreeman]

To be fair, the more accurate analogy for what the Sabres would have given up and what the Devils gave up would be this:

 

Sabres give up: 1st Round, MacArthur, Kassian and Lydman.

 

Devils gave up: 1st Round, Bergfors (compare him to MacArthur), Prospect Cormier (Kassian) and Johnny Oduya (Lydman, except Oduya is signed for a few more seasons).

 

I don't think its fair to compare Oduya (older, stay at home dman) to Butler (puck moving prospect dman).

 

So, would I have given that up to get Kovie? Most likely not. He would never sign here long term, and that would be too high of a price to pay for a rental.

While I agree that Oduya and Butler aren't exactly apples to apples, I think that Butler is closer in trade value to Oduya than Lydman is. Oduya averaged over 21 minutes of ice time for the top defensive team in the NHL. Butler is just under 21 minutes, while Lydman is just over 17 minutes. Also, Lydman is a UFA after this year, while Butler has another year under contract, and then is an RFA. From Atlanta's perspective, getting a player back who wasn't going to bail in a month was pretty important. Also, Lydman is 32, while Oduya is 28.

[LabattBlue]

You can really not complain about these moves and where we are in the standings at this point.

It has not been perfect, but it could be much worse.

The moves to the bottom 6 forwards and 5-6 pairing on the blueline were okay, but DR didn't address the bigger problem, and that is a shakeup of the FAB V(Pominville, Roy, Connolly, Stafford & Vanek) and IMO that move should be Roy sent packing in the offseason.

[Foligno's Nose]

The moves to the bottom 6 forwards and 5-6 pairing on the blueline were okay, but DR didn't address the bigger problem, and that is a shakeup of the FAB V(Pominville, Roy, Connolly, Stafford & Vanek) and IMO that move should be Roy sent packing in the offseason.

 

My vote was yes to acquire Kovalchuk.

I really do not see what the downfall could be.

Roy and Stafford could have been moved with Butler and/ or Gerbe, Ennis, or draft pick(s).

 

Kovalchuk - excellent wrist-shot, PP QB, game-breaker.

 

The sacrifice would be losing Butler.

I have been on the 'Trade Roy' bandwagon for a while, and am not getting off of it.

Stafford does absolutlely nothing for me.

At least Pommer and Connolly have something going on with Hecht.

 

Forgot to add this for reference:

 

Sabres Goals For ranking since lockout

2005-2006 5th

2006-2007 1st

2007-2008 4th

2008-2009 12th

2009-2010 currently tied at 15

[LabattBlue]

My vote was yes to acquire Kovalchuk.

I really do not see what the downfall could be.

Roy and Stafford could have been moved with Butler and/ or Gerbe, Ennis, or draft pick(s).

 

Kovalchuk - excellent wrist-shot, PP QB, game-breaker.

 

The sacrifice would be losing Butler.

I have been on the 'Trade Roy' bandwagon for a while, and am not getting off of it.

Stafford does absolutlely nothing for me.

At least Pommer and Connolly have something going on with Hecht.

 

Forgot to add this for reference:

 

Sabres Goals For ranking since lockout

2005-2006 5th

2006-2007 1st

2007-2008 4th

2008-2009 12th

2009-2010 currently tied at 15

I'm confused. In your previous reply to me(where I stated they should have made a bigger move last offseason...trade Roy), you said that I can't really complain about the moves that were made(bottom 6 improvements) and look where the Sabre are in the current standings. Then you turn around and post above that they should have traded Roy + for Kovalchuk. :blink:

 

 

I'm afraid to ask...Are in agreement that Roy should have been traded last offseason or should be traded in the coming offseason?

[deluca67]

I'm confused. In your previous reply to me(where I stated they should have made a bigger move last offseason...trade Roy), you said that I can't really complain about the moves that were made(bottom 6 improvements) and look where the Sabre are in the current standings. Then you turn around and post above that they should have traded Roy + for Kovalchuk. :blink:

 

 

I'm afraid to ask...Are in agreement that Roy should have been traded last offseason or should be traded in the coming offseason?

I would think the market for Roy would be found at the top of each conference. He certainly isn't a player that a team looking to rebuild will want. IMO.

[Foligno's Nose]

I'm confused. In your previous reply to me(where I stated they should have made a bigger move last offseason...trade Roy), you said that I can't really complain about the moves that were made(bottom 6 improvements) and look where the Sabre are in the current standings. Then you turn around and post above that they should have traded Roy + for Kovalchuk. :blink:

 

 

I'm afraid to ask...Are in agreement that Roy should have been traded last offseason or should be traded in the coming offseason?

 

Exactly.

 

(Just Kidding)

 

I ageee that Roy should have been moved last Summer.

I also agree that he should still be moved now or in the near future.

They are in need of a change to improve scoring.

They have a playoff spot, but should take the next step to improve the roster for playoff success.

 

 

I am most dissapointed by the fact that Lindy and Darcy were so sold by the players end-of-last-season interviews.

It got them to where they are now, but the team is obviously vulnerable and still has leadership issues.

The postive side of this recent slump should hopefully produce a roster shake-up.

Improving the offense is the answer.

 

 

Sorry for any confusion.

If you are still confused, let me know.

[carpandean]

I mentioned this is another thread, but figured I throw it in here, too. Anyone else catch the Devils-Flyers game on Vs tonight? I missed the first part and Kovy was on the ice for a PP goal. From the replay, it looks like Parise banked an intended pass in off of Pronger. Kovy wasn't really involved other than being the intended target on the far side. Anyway, he was on the ice for a total of 11+ minutes of PP this game, higher even than the 7+ that he was on the ice for in the previous game. He went without a point in both games. However, more important than that was how he actually looked when the was out there. I watched basically the middle 30 minutes of the game and every time that he was out there, he was floating around, coughing up the puck or making bad passes. I was really unimpressed. I'm sure he'll make me eat my words, but what I saw tonight certainly backed up the lazy, selfish player reputation that was floating around pre-trade.

[Lethbridge Broncos]

it wasnt the price to pay for him wit players. it is the asking salary he will demand. NJ can pay it. buffal can NOT. With Brodeur and patrick Elias soon to leave (both gone by 2011-12), this made sense for NJ.

[TheChimp]

To be fair, the more accurate analogy for what the Sabres would have given up and what the Devils gave up would be this:

 

Sabres give up: 1st Round, MacArthur, Kassian and Lydman.

 

Devils gave up: 1st Round, Bergfors (compare him to MacArthur), Prospect Cormier (Kassian) and Johnny Oduya (Lydman, except Oduya is signed for a few more seasons).

 

I don't think its fair to compare Oduya (older, stay at home dman) to Butler (puck moving prospect dman).

 

So, would I have given that up to get Kovie? Most likely not. He would never sign here long term, and that would be too high of a price to pay for a rental.

I'd even substitute Rivet for Lydman in that scenario, as that seems more appropriate with the length of contract, and STILL do that trade in a flipping heartbeat. I'm having trouble seeing why anyone wouldn't.

[nfreeman]

I mentioned this is another thread, but figured I throw it in here, too. Anyone else catch the Devils-Flyers game on Vs tonight? I missed the first part and Kovy was on the ice for a PP goal. From the replay, it looks like Parise banked an intended pass in off of Pronger. Kovy wasn't really involved other than being the intended target on the far side. Anyway, he was on the ice for a total of 11+ minutes of PP this game, higher even than the 7+ that he was on the ice for in the previous game. He went without a point in both games. However, more important than that was how he actually looked when the was out there. I watched basically the middle 30 minutes of the game and every time that he was out there, he was floating around, coughing up the puck or making bad passes. I was really unimpressed. I'm sure he'll make me eat my words, but what I saw tonight certainly backed up the lazy, selfish player reputation that was floating around pre-trade.

NJ is now 1 and 2 since Kovy arrived, with the sole win arising when they scored 3 goals in the last 2 minutes against the Leafs.

 

it wasnt the price to pay for him wit players. it is the asking salary he will demand. NJ can pay it. buffal can NOT. With Brodeur and patrick Elias soon to leave (both gone by 2011-12), this made sense for NJ.

1. The Sabres are spending more this year than NJ is, even with Kovy.

 

2. The Devils are almost certainly not going to re-sign Kovy.

 

I'd even substitute Rivet for Lydman in that scenario, as that seems more appropriate with the length of contract, and STILL do that trade in a flipping heartbeat. I'm having trouble seeing why anyone wouldn't.

Because your 2nd-best defenseman (assuming it would've been Butler for the reasons discussed above and not Lydman or Rivet), your best prospect, a #1 and a likely 20-goal scoring young forward is a steep price to pay for a rental. If he were going to sign an extension, it's a different story.

[deluca67]

NJ is now 1 and 2 since Kovy arrived, with the sole win arising when they scored 3 goals in the last 2 minutes against the Leafs.

 

 

1. The Sabres are spending more this year than NJ is, even with Kovy.

 

2. The Devils are almost certainly not going to re-sign Kovy.

 

 

Because your 2nd-best defenseman (assuming it would've been Butler for the reasons discussed above and not Lydman or Rivet), your best prospect, a #1 and a likely 20-goal scoring young forward is a steep price to pay for a rental. If he were going to sign an extension, it's a different story.

Still trying to convince people that adding a legit 50 goal would be bad for the Sabres chances?

 

I take heat all season because I say the roster outside of Miller is nowhere near good enough. I have people calling me crazy and pointing to the standings. Yet, when I bring up Kovy? Suddenly many of those same people are saying that not even a ultra-talented player like him can make the Sabres a true contender. That to me is more condemning of this roster than anything I have said all year. Suddenly peoples evaluation of the current roster grade out lower than what I have been saying. This board is truly interesting sometimes.

[nfreeman]

Still trying to convince people that adding a legit 50 goal would be bad for the Sabres chances?

Did anyone say that? Certainly no one would've complained about adding him at the right price. The question is whether the putative price for a Kovy rental was too high for this team, this year.

 

I think that NJ's situation is different from the Sabres', so their trade made more sense than a Sabres trade (again, at the specified price) would have made. Even so, it's worth noting that so far, the trade hasn't worked out as NJ was hoping.

[inkman]

Still trying to convince people that adding a legit 50 goal would be bad for the Sabres chances?

I'll jump on that every day of the week. Some players play leads to winnning, other players lead to losing. Adding a player like him can change more than your goal total at the end of the season. Team chemistry, work ethic, cohesiveness are all things that bringing in as outsider can affect. Whether or not he impacts the team positively or negatively is still up in the air. I'll go with my gut and shoot for him destroying that team by season's end.

[deluca67]

I'll jump on that every day of the week. Some players play leads to winnning, other players lead to losing. Adding a player like him can change more than your goal total at the end of the season. Team chemistry, work ethic, cohesiveness are all things that bringing in as outsider can affect. Whether or not he impacts the team positively or negatively is still up in the air. I'll go with my gut and shoot for him destroying that team by season's end.

What exactly would he be "destroying?" Is he going to somehow damage Ryan Miller or Myers? Those are the only two pieces worth saving on this roster? Do you think because he is here that players like Vanek, Roy and Pominville will start taking nights off? That happens already. Is the team going to play soft. They can't can't play any softer. Is he going to hurt the defense? 3 of the 6 deserve to be benched for the rest of the season. What is he "destroying?"

[deluca67]

Did anyone say that? Certainly no one would've complained about adding him at the right price. The question is whether the putative price for a Kovy rental was too high for this team, this year.

 

I think that NJ's situation is different from the Sabres', so their trade made more sense than a Sabres trade (again, at the specified price) would have made. Even so, it's worth noting that so far, the trade hasn't worked out as NJ was hoping.

The only difference is that one GM is focused on winning another Stanley Cup and one GM doesn't see the Stanley Cup as a goal.

[LabattBlue]

The only difference is that one GM is focused on winning another Stanley Cup and one GM doesn't see the Stanley Cup as a goal.

...or maybe one GM realizes that his team is still another year away and doesn't want to take on a very expensive rental? ;)