Should the Sabres have paid what NJ paid for Kovy?

[Onceagain]

Sure signs the end is nigh.

[carpandean]

One favor from all the Kovy supporters: please don't say "I told you so" if he has a strong first game; they're playing the freakin' Maple Leafs. ;)

 

I would laugh if Phaneuf laid a season ending hit on Kovy in his first game. :thumbsup:

[PASabreFan]

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).

Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.

Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.

To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

 

But Kovy's ice time isn't suppressed, he wasn't ask to go win a Selke and he isn't planted in front of the goalie on the power play to get whack a mole-d around.

[Onceagain]

The tough thing about this trade was not that the sabres did not get Kovy, but that the Devils did. We could very well end up seeing NJ in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs this year and they will be a much tougher out. However, I still think their system is built around an aging goalie and in the end, even with Kovy, they will not create enough offense to get it done. With the way Ottawa has been playing as of late and the inevitable late season Miller fatigue from being ridden like a stallion for 6 months, I can see the sabres losing the division by a few points to the Sens and falling to the 6 spot in the conference. I think this act could work out for the better as Ruff is one of the best playoff coaches and his teams always seem to find an edge, especially as underdogs.

[ntjacks79]

So Pittsburgh didn't need Crosby or Malkin to win the Cup last year... Detroit didn't need to bring in Hossa to make it to the Finals, either. That's good, 'cause the Sabres don't have any players at that talent level. So, they should be a shoe-in for the Finals this year, right?

 

Yep, Vanek is looking real good right now - and the team still lost to the Penguins and the Senators.

 

Of course, the team rebuild is going great, too. Funny thing, though; I can't seem to find the players in the Buffalo system that fall into the Ovy, Crosby, Kovy, Kane, Brodeur, etc. category. Maybe I missed something? We have Miller, Vanek, Myers and maybe Connolly. Everyone else is a different shade of average. Yep, the rebuild is going great.

 

"We're gonna win that Cup! We're going to win that Stanley Cup!"

Come on. This is not fair. You don't think Buffalo would have taken these players in the draft if they could have? You're talking about guys everyone KNEW would be good and were the first few picks in the draft. The only way Buffalo gets them is both to completely go south and have the worst record in hockey AND hope one of these kind of guys is available the year they do (AND get lucky in the ping pong roll).

I'm completely pissed about Wednesday's game, and I don't like what I see in the last 5-7 games where Buffalo played a good hockey team, but it's obvious that "The Plan" that Regier has (and I'll even give Quinn some grudging respect) is working as well as it can. The team has more financial constraints than most, has never gotten "lucky" in draft position (unlike the Penguins who are ridiculously lucky), and yet still fields a pretty solid team. The Bills could only be so lucky...

[nfreeman]

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).

Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.

Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.

To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

Kovy's assists in his 1st 4 years: 22, 29, 46, 46. (total: 143; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)

Vanek's assists in his 1st 4 years: 23, 41, 28, 24. (total: 116; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

 

The difference: 9 assists per year, when Kovy averaged 32% more ice time.

 

Having said all this, I don't disagree that Kovy is better than Vanek, and almost certainly will have a better career. But there's been more sizzle than steak in Kovy's career thus far. And I don't think it's fair to say that he elevates those around him -- that team has been "elevated" to 1 playoff series and zero playoff wins during Kovy's career. I'm not at all sure that Vanek will get back to 40-40-80 consistently, but I think it's reasonably likely, and that (especially in 17 minutes per game) is pretty close to an elite player.

[PASabreFan]

Come on. This is not fair. You don't think Buffalo would have taken these players in the draft if they could have? You're talking about guys everyone KNEW would be good and were the first few picks in the draft. The only way Buffalo gets them is both to completely go south and have the worst record in hockey AND hope one of these kind of guys is available the year they do (AND get lucky in the ping pong roll).

I'm completely pissed about Wednesday's game, and I don't like what I see in the last 5-7 games where Buffalo played a good hockey team, but it's obvious that "The Plan" that Regier has (and I'll even give Quinn some grudging respect) is working as well as it can. The team has more financial constraints than most, has never gotten "lucky" in draft position (unlike the Penguins who are ridiculously lucky), and yet still fields a pretty solid team. The Bills could only be so lucky...

 

I won't berate you for not knowing this -- because I didn't know it until recently -- but the Sabres and Pens had the same chance of getting Crosby.

[carpandean]

I won't berate you for not knowing this -- because I didn't know it until recently -- but the Sabres and Pens had the same chance of getting Crosby.

Probabilistically, yes. Statistically, no. Both had the same chance of getting the first pick in that draft when the balls were spinning around. After they fell, however, Pittsburgh had a 100% chance to pick him, while Buffalo had a 0% chance. Pittsburgh got lucky.

[static70]

Kovy's assists in his 1st 4 years: 22, 29, 46, 46. (total: 143; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)

Vanek's assists in his 1st 4 years: 23, 41, 28, 24. (total: 116; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

 

The difference: 9 assists per year, when Kovy averaged 32% more ice time.

 

Having said all this, I don't disagree that Kovy is better than Vanek, and almost certainly will have a better career. But there's been more sizzle than steak in Kovy's career thus far. And I don't think it's fair to say that he elevates those around him -- that team has been "elevated" to 1 playoff series and zero playoff wins during Kovy's career. I'm not at all sure that Vanek will get back to 40-40-80 consistently, but I think it's reasonably likely, and that (especially in 17 minutes per game) is pretty close to an elite player.

Good numbers, and the intangibles are the difference. I would rather have Kovy at Vaneks salary :thumbsup: . But when its all said and done, he does make NJ a better team. How much so remains to be seen, but he should pad some ones stats in Devils land (Parise and Zajak maybe?)

[Two or less]

If the Sabres got Kovy, they would still need to go out and get a replacement for Kennedy for the 3rd line and trading Butler away, means we would 100% need another d-men. That's 2 more trades to happen. Getting Kovy and only Kovy does not fix this team nor make it more "Cup contender" then it is now. There are still flaws on the team that we would be not fixing. The Devils have less flaws then the Sabres do and this made sense to them. Realisticly, we have more flaws. Getting Kovy wouldn't guarentee anything.

[PASabreFan]

Probabilistically, yes. Statistically, no. Both had the same chance of getting the first pick in that draft when the balls were spinning around. After they fell, however, Pittsburgh had a 100% chance to pick him, while Buffalo had a 0% chance. Pittsburgh got lucky.

 

:censored:

[nobody]

If the Sabres got Kovy, they would still need to go out and get a replacement for Kennedy for the 3rd line and trading Butler away, means we would 100% need another d-men. That's 2 more trades to happen. Getting Kovy and only Kovy does not fix this team nor make it more "Cup contender" then it is now. There are still flaws on the team that we would be not fixing. The Devils have less flaws then the Sabres do and this made sense to them. Realisticly, we have more flaws. Getting Kovy wouldn't guarentee anything.

 

 

NJ also got defenceman Anssi Salmela back in the trade.

[Two or less]

NJ also got defenceman Anssi Salmela back in the trade.

 

Sabres need to ADD a blueliner right now.... and by losing Butler, they would have needed to add someone other then a 25 year old stay at home d-men Salmela. Salmela used to play for the Devils, so they know what he is all about, thus making even more sense for NJ. Also, their #1 d-men Paul Martin will be back after the Olympic break. This trade makes tons of sense for NJ. Makes absolute zero sense for Buffalo is what I am saying.

[freester]

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).

Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.

Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.

To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

well stated-Kovy is a top 10 player Vanek is barely a top 40 player. Just because we grossly overpaid for Vanek does not make him a superstar. Also Kovy has many more assists than vanek. I think that nfreeman lives in a fantasy world. I live in atlanta and I have seen Kovy play many times. He is exactly what we needed to get over the hump.

[Sabre Dance]

Although this post is fairly incoherent, I think you mean that teams need elite players to win Cups. I don't disagree with this...

 

Fairly incoherent? It's Friday and I just sat through a three-hour conference about meeting government regulations. It's shocking that I could still type!

:blink:

[X. Benedict]

Grow a set already. My God, are you Darcy Marcy? Is this what he does in his spare time? Seriously, you're the Poster Boy for Mediocrity.

 

If you don't understand why fans are a lot more skeptical about this team after the last several weeks -- the most worrisome trend being Miller's decline -- you haven't been watching too closely.

 

:lol:

 

:lol: Poster Boy of Mediocrity

 

 

You are such a hypocrite.

 

There is a league wide context is all I'm suggesting.

 

When Tampa went on a buying spree and signed Melrose to coach, this place had a meltdown.

Kessle going to Toronto....that certainly tipped the balance....Whoa!!!!

The Rangers and Canadiens making big leauge moves in the offseason had some folks here apoplectic.

 

 

But let me explore what you've brought to the table in your year of navel gazing...

 

Fire Lindy x 1000

Miller stinks x 1000

Deconstruction and decontextualizatin of Lindy's postgame interviews that would make Derida proud.

And an occasional beef with John Vogl.

Which would make you the posterboy of what exactly?

 

So grow a sack yourself...

 

My challenge to you would be to follow any other league team for just 10 games and then come back and watch Buffalo. Just stare and compare is all.

 

The Sabres are a well-balanced and deep team.

Because the GM doesn't buy when stocks are high, doesn't mean he won't buy.

 

I've been talking trades all-along.

This is just one godddamn player (that takes a lot of shifts off, by the way) sure he has a wristshot from the Gods, but that hasn't brought Atlanta much success either...this is the guy that publicly goes after Lindy Ruff for ruining Max Afinegenov's career and then gets the guy demoted of his own line.

 

But enjoy the fan panic 1 month prior to trade deadline, it's such an intoxicating cycle, isn't it? :beer:

 

Love,

 

Joe Mediocrity.

Poster Boy and Centerfold '10

[darksabre]

<awesome>

 

I think I love you.

[PASabreFan]

:lol:

 

:lol: Poster Boy of Mediocrity

 

 

You are such a hypocrite.

 

There is a league wide context is all I'm suggesting.

 

When Tampa went on a buying spree and signed Melrose to coach, this place had a meltdown.

Kessle going to Toronto....that certainly tipped the balance....Whoa!!!!

The Rangers and Canadiens making big leauge moves in the offseason had some folks here apoplectic.

 

 

But let me explore what you've brought to the table in your year of navel gazing...

 

Fire Lindy x 1000

Miller stinks x 1000

Deconstruction and decontextualizatin of Lindy's postgame interviews that would make Derida proud.

And an occasional beef with John Vogl.

Which would make you the posterboy of what exactly?

 

So grow a sack yourself...

 

My challenge to you would be to follow any other league team for just 10 games and then come back and watch Buffalo. Just stare and compare is all.

 

The Sabres are a well-balanced and deep team.

Because the GM doesn't buy when stocks are high, doesn't mean he won't buy.

 

I've been talking trades all-along.

This is just one godddamn player (that takes a lot of shifts off, by the way) sure he has a wristshot from the Gods, but that hasn't brought Atlanta much success either...this is the guy that publicly goes after Lindy Ruff for ruining Max Afinegenov's career and then gets the guy demoted of his own line.

 

But enjoy the fan panic 1 month prior to trade deadline, it's such an intoxicating cycle, isn't it? :beer:

 

Love,

 

Joe Mediocrity.

Poster Boy and Centerfold '10

It would be great if you showed 10% of that passion when discussing the Sabres. Are you even a fan?

 

I've given Miller tons of credit. He's tailed off. Most people can see that. "Miller's fine" is just a stale, mediocre opinion.

 

I live game by game with this team. Give it a try, Jack.

[Eleven]

:lol:

 

:lol: Poster Boy of Mediocrity

 

 

You are such a hypocrite.

 

There is a league wide context is all I'm suggesting.

 

When Tampa went on a buying spree and signed Melrose to coach, this place had a meltdown.

Kessle going to Toronto....that certainly tipped the balance....Whoa!!!!

The Rangers and Canadiens making big leauge moves in the offseason had some folks here apoplectic.

 

 

But let me explore what you've brought to the table in your year of navel gazing...

 

Fire Lindy x 1000

Miller stinks x 1000

Deconstruction and decontextualizatin of Lindy's postgame interviews that would make Derida proud.

And an occasional beef with John Vogl.

Which would make you the posterboy of what exactly?

 

So grow a sack yourself...

 

My challenge to you would be to follow any other league team for just 10 games and then come back and watch Buffalo. Just stare and compare is all.

 

The Sabres are a well-balanced and deep team.

Because the GM doesn't buy when stocks are high, doesn't mean he won't buy.

 

I've been talking trades all-along.

This is just one godddamn player (that takes a lot of shifts off, by the way) sure he has a wristshot from the Gods, but that hasn't brought Atlanta much success either...this is the guy that publicly goes after Lindy Ruff for ruining Max Afinegenov's career and then gets the guy demoted of his own line.

 

But enjoy the fan panic 1 month prior to trade deadline, it's such an intoxicating cycle, isn't it? :beer:

 

Love,

 

Joe Mediocrity.

Poster Boy and Centerfold '10

 

Thanks.

[Eleven]

It would be great if you showed 10% of that passion when discussing the Sabres. Are you even a fan?

 

I've given Miller tons of credit. He's tailed off. Most people can see that. "Miller's fine" is just a stale, mediocre opinion.

 

I live game by game with this team. Give it a try, Jack.

 

(1) He was discussing the Sabres. Is he even a fan? Are you? Come on, PA.

 

(2) Yes, you do; and yes, you're right.

 

(3) Thank you for exposing XB. Now, I know his name is really Jack.

[PASabreFan]

Thanks.

 

For what? Come on, don't be third man in like Vanek was after Miller got hit.

[Eleven]

For what? Come on, don't be third man in like Vanek was after Miller got hit.

 

For, IMO, a completely accurate description of this board's history of overreaction to other teams' moves.

[PASabreFan]

And, X, I wasn't calling you or your posts mediocre. It's the Sabres who are mediocre, and you don't seem to mind. You rarely have a problem with what the Sabres are doing, even going back over the last two non-playoff years. I'm supposed to watch 10 other teams and come away with what conclusion -- man, are the Sabres the best team in the league, or what!?

 

All you're doing up there is cherry picking teams that tried to win and failed. Tampa, of course, after actually winning the darned thing since the Sabres came into the league. Rangers, and Montreal, too. Toronto, well... This can't be a good defense of Darcy.

 

Are you really suggesting the Sabres are doing everything possible, and smartly enough, to win a Cup? It's just a matter of time, eh? Darcy just said on WGR that the Top 6 are all re-signed for next year and "They're going to get better." He used the term "continuous growth." And he said the Sabres addressed Phillips' hit on Miller.

 

I'm sure you're fine with all that though.

[SwampD]

And, X, I wasn't calling you or your posts mediocre. It's the Sabres who are mediocre, and you don't seem to mind. You rarely have a problem with what the Sabres are doing, even going back over the last two non-playoff years. I'm supposed to watch 10 other teams and come away with what conclusion -- man, are the Sabres the best team in the league, or what!?

 

All you're doing up there is cherry picking teams that tried to win and failed. Tampa, of course, after actually winning the darned thing since the Sabres came into the league. Rangers, and Montreal, too. Toronto, well... This can't be a good defense of Darcy.

 

Are you really suggesting the Sabres are doing everything possible, and smartly enough, to win a Cup? It's just a matter of time, eh? Darcy just said on WGR that the Top 6 are all re-signed for next year and "They're going to get better." He used the term "continuous growth." And he said the Sabres addressed Phillips' hit on Miller.

 

I'm sure you're fine with all that though.

I was going to jump in and back you up when Eleven jumped in but you are holding your own just fine.

[X. Benedict]

It would be great if you showed 10% of that passion when discussing the Sabres. Are you even a fan?

 

I've given Miller tons of credit. He's tailed off. Most people can see that. "Miller's fine" is just a stale, mediocre opinion.

 

I live game by game with this team. Give it a try, Jack.

 

 

I am a fan of the game, a fan of the league, and entirely a fan of the Sabres.

I cried the day Danny Gare and Jim Schonfield were traded. If the Sabres ever lift the cup, which I think they will, I'll cry like a baby. Heck I wake with nightmares about 83, I wake in the middle of the night putting Gil Pearault on 2010 lines. I think the first voice I'll hear in heaven will be Ted Darling.

 

Things used to be civil with us, and even fun. I think I've changed very little.

 

There are times goalies have bad games. The Pitt game Miller was bad. 2-3 soft ones. Against Ottawa he played a good game. He got beat with a shot that maybe only ten players in the league make, the other one he wandered and got outwaited, the third well....Alfredson open in the crease is a goal 9 times out of ten. still, 34 good saves.

 

Are my opinions a threat to your turf or what? How sad.

 

Don't like what I write? easy solution.

 

Mediocre, eh? Fine print the posters.

 

If you don't find anything I write interesting? Easy solution.

 

But, don't you think you've become a bit hackneyed yourself, there?

 

Hypocrite.

 

Regards,

 

Mr. Kettle