Friedman- Sabres looking to move prospects for players

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, Demoted said:

I highly doubt the Sabres are doing that since they are the "Desperate" team in the NHL and everyone knows it. This wouldn't move the market at all for a team like this.

There is no market to move. This is a saying that really does not apply.  

You don't increase the value of a player by announcing you want to trade him, many times that lowers his value.   

IF the Sabres actually do anything, they will likely be trading current players, prospects and picks in combination.  

 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

No but they opposite can be true. The whole "Adams overvalues his players" thing. Imagine you're a GM of a team targeting a top Sabres player/prospect. You essentially offer a bag of pucks hoping to swindle Adams who you see as  inexperienced. But he doesn't bite. What do you do next?

You run to the Dregers, Friedmans or Seravellis with the hot tip that Adams overvalues his players because you know the fanbase will go bonkers, and maybe put pressure on the Sabres. You'll notice we don't hear that trope anymore.

As to your point, I don't think the Sabres talk to any press. Note how no one knew about the Kekalainen hire before it happened. Not Dregers. Not Paul Hamilton.

"Adams overvalues his players" came about by Adams himself when he bragged about his prospect pool and said many GMs are dying to steal his prospects. Adams decided to keep his picks and prospects and not trade them for players that would block them.   He said that.   He wanted to build sustained winning but he can figure out you have to win first to sustain winning.   This came from the league and media because it was true, not because fans made it up.   Do you think hockey people in St Louis, Carolina, Los Angeles, or anywhere else listen to Sabres fans?  

But go ahead and blame the fans.  The team has been bad for 14 years because of the fans, and it has nothing to do with how Terry and Kim ran things.  You love to remind us that Terry wins with the Bills and the Bandits - so it must be the fans.  

Coaches and players don't want to come here because of the fans and the city right?  Not because they have been inept for 14+ years and counting. 

[krakensabr56390]

23 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

"Adams overvalues his players" came about by Adams himself when he bragged about his prospect pool and said many GMs are dying to steal his prospects. Adams decided to keep his picks and prospects and not trade them for players that would block them.   He said that.   He wanted to build sustained winning but he can figure out you have to win first to sustain winning.   This came from the league and media because it was true, not because fans made it up.   Do you think hockey people in St Louis, Carolina, Los Angeles, or anywhere else listen to Sabres fans?  

But go ahead and blame the fans.  The team has been bad for 14 years because of the fans, and it has nothing to do with how Terry and Kim ran things.  You love to remind us that Terry wins with the Bills and the Bandits - so it must be the fans.  

Coaches and players don't want to come here because of the fans and the city right?  Not because they have been inept for 14+ years and counting. 

I don’t think he’s trying to blame the fans… I think he’s saying that other teams are trying to use the media to manipulate the Sabres. Nothing to do with the fans who they don’t listen to anyways…

I get the same sense that people wanted to put lowball the Sabres … Look at what the media narrative was when we got McLeod.

We got a guy who was a 50 pt 2 Way center on a good contract with good defensive numbers… And somehow the spin was that it was the worst trade in the last 15 years since Forsburg for erat - and the Hockey news dope who made that statement sticks by that judgment!

[Mr. Allen]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Except when Murray got here, he drafted like *****, his predecessor had drafted like *****, and so after he did that, there was literally nothing in the pipe. Versus now, we're the youngest team in the league, we have a list of talented players in the NHL, we have good prospect depth, and we aren't trading everything, just a few pieces. 

Besides, Murray traded for the booger sugar bros and captain nutjob. At least ror was a good deal. 

But at the time we didn’t realize they were poor prospects.

We had Grigs, Girgs, McCabe, Risto, Zadarov.  We were even excited about Baptiste and Bailey.  
And don’t get me started on how awesome Pu was gonna be!  lol

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, Mr. Allen said:

My problem is so many of you guys are really rooting for the Sabres to trade picks and prospects for players who help us win now.  Almost like “screw the future, I want to win now”.  And that’s cool. 
But it’s probably some of the same people who absolutely chastised Tim Murray for doing exactly that during his time.  Now, Murray’s plan didn’t work, but he mortgaged our future to bring in players to help the team win now just like what you’re asking Adams to do. 

There are lots of varying opinions, so it would be wrong for me to say that nobody wants to mortgage the future. I don’t think that is close to the general view of fans though.

I was listening to the Athletic prospect show yesterday. They were podcasting from the Combine in Buffalo. At one point,  they discussed how the current bottom of the league rebuilding teams like Chicago and San Jose, should manage their draft and prospect capital. The Sabres were brought up as the failed example; a franchise that over-valued picks and prospects and did not understand the need for a better balance between youth and veterans. Simply put, not all the kids will or can play.

I think there are very few fans who want impulsive and unthoughtful player moves. Fans just want the GM to manage the team and its roster like a normal NHL team that is trying to win games.  And if Adams has been trying to do that, then he has failed and it is time to let someone else do the job. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Archie Lee

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

There is no market to move. This is a saying that really does not apply.  

You don't increase the value of a player by announcing you want to trade him, many times that lowers his value.   

IF the Sabres actually do anything, they will likely be trading current players, prospects and picks in combination.  

 

Organizations recognize what players are more likely to being dealt than most people think. A lot of that the assumptions about possible availability are based on player contract status and roster and system stocking that are known to all. And in the normal casual conversations/interactions that all teams have with one another clues about players future availability can be decerned that lead to future pursuits. The point I'm making here is that for the most part little is secret what an organization wants and what they are willing to give up. There is plenty of lead up before anything is actualized. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the Sabres will likely be trading current players, prospects and picks in combination. And that shouldn't be a surprise because that is how most hockey business is usually conducted. The one major deficiency that KA has that has limited his options is that he is poor in assessing his own talent and understanding on how they should fit together. He's a shallow thinker in a class full of deep thinkers. I'm hearted by the fact that an experienced hockey man was added to tutor him up a bit. 

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

There are lots of varying opinions, so it would be wrong for me to say that nobody wants to mortgage the future. I don’t think that is close to the general view of fans though.

I was listening to the Athletic prospect show yesterday. They were podcasting from the Combine in Buffalo. At one point,  they discussed how the current bottom of the league rebuilding teams like Chicago and San Jose, should manage their draft and prospect capital. The Sabres were brought up as the failed example; a franchise that over-valued picks and prospects and did not understand the need for a better balance between youth and veterans. Simply put, not all the kids will or can play.

I think there are very few fans who want impulsive and unthoughtful player moves. Fans just want the GM to manage the team and its roster like a normal NHL team that is trying to win games.  And if Adams has been trying to do that, then he has failed and it is time to let someone else do the job. 

Tell that to the owner who foolishly hired him and then retained him after an extended bland performance. It's not a surprise that when mediocrity is rewarded (or not held accountable) it is a reflection of the mediocre franchise. Tolerance is not always a good thing. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, krakensabr56390 said:

I don’t think he’s trying to blame the fans… I think he’s saying that other teams are trying to use the media to manipulate the Sabres. Nothing to do with the fans who they don’t listen to anyways…

I get the same sense that people wanted to put lowball the Sabres … Look at what the media narrative was when we got McLeod.

We got a guy who was a 50 pt 2 Way center on a good contract with good defensive numbers… And somehow the spin was that it was the worst trade in the last 15 years since Forsburg for erat - and the Hockey news dope who made that statement sticks by that judgment!

Don't know if you've lurked here for a while or are new here, but he ABSOLUTELY blames the fans for the problems of this team.  Used to blame the Bills drought on the fans as well.  It's kind of his thing.

[Doohickie]

5 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Is the ice they skate on wet? 🤷‍♀️

Actually, yes.  Ice skates glide on a trail of liquid water.  The concentrated force of the blade on the ice creates enough localized pressure to temporarily melt the ice into water, and it acts as a lubricant that the skater glides on.

Edited 5 hours ago by Doohickie

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Don't know if you've lurked here for a while or are new here, but he ABSOLUTELY blames the fans for the problems of this team.  Used to blame the Bills drought on the fans as well.  It's kind of his thing.

@PromoTheRobot has always had an attitude that if the fanbase went too far in criticizing the benevolent owner that the angered owner would out of frustration or spite move the franchise or sell it to someone who would move the franchise. That's always been his overriding fear when the criticisms get too intense. 

PTR puts his $$$ where his mouth is and as an out of towner attends a lot of hometown games in a variety of sports. So he deserves some forbearance. But even for this fine upstanding fellow he carries out his prostration to the organization to an extreme level. He needs to recognize that holding people accountable in any endeavor is something that should be pursued and not feared. And I want to make it clear that I like this fine chap. 

[K-9]

42 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Don't know if you've lurked here for a while or are new here, but he ABSOLUTELY blames the fans for the problems of this team.  Used to blame the Bills drought on the fans as well.  It's kind of his thing.

While @PromoTheRobothas certainly called out fans in the past, the particular post that @Pimlachresponded didn’t blame fans in the least. He was merely pointing out how teams can manipulate various media at times. 

Edited 4 hours ago by K-9

[Crusader1969]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Except when Murray got here, he drafted like *****, his predecessor had drafted like *****, and so after he did that, there was literally nothing in the pipe. Versus now, we're the youngest team in the league, we have a list of talented players in the NHL, we have good prospect depth, and we aren't trading everything, just a few pieces. 

Besides, Murray traded for the booger sugar bros and captain nutjob. At least ror was a good deal. 

Talking about guys Murray traded for 

who can remind me why they didn't try to  sign Kane? Exactly the type of player they are still desperate for 8 years (or so) later 

 

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, Mr. Allen said:

But at the time we didn’t realize they were poor prospects.

We had Grigs, Girgs, McCabe, Risto, Zadarov.  We were even excited about Baptiste and Bailey.  
And don’t get me started on how awesome Pu was gonna be!  lol

When it's that many that never met their potential , you might want to start looking at the organizations ability to develop their prospects 

[Taro T]

12 minutes ago, K-9 said:

While @PromoTheRobothas certainly called out fans in the past, the particular post that @Pimlachresponded didn’t blame fans in the least. He was merely pointing out how teams can manipulate various media at times. 

Perhaps for once he wasn't throwing shade at the fans.  But, his overriding shtick is that the fans are unworthy and contribute to the troubles of this franchise and if they would simply be more positive the results would improve regardless of what happens at SHKIIIP.  Based on his past writings, have a hard time not taking "because you know the fanbase will go bonkers, and maybe put pressure on the Sabres" as another shot at the fans.

[GASabresIUFAN]

So how does this "rumor" square with trading away JJP and Byram rumors?  Are we going to trade them for prospects and then trade those prospects for other players?  Odds of Adams completing such a deal are about zero.  

[K-9]

28 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Perhaps for once he wasn't throwing shade at the fans.  But, his overriding shtick is that the fans are unworthy and contribute to the troubles of this franchise and if they would simply be more positive the results would improve regardless of what happens at SHKIIIP.  Based on his past writings, have a hard time not taking "because you know the fanbase will go bonkers, and maybe put pressure on the Sabres" as another shot at the fans.

Getting the fans to go bonkers in order to ratchet up some pressure on the Sabres is precisely the idea GMs (and agents for that matter) have in mind when it comes to the sort of media manipulation @PromoTheRobotalludes to in that particular post. Makes sense given how bonkers we fans currently are. Especially when it comes to KA over-valuing prospects and being afraid to pull the trigger on deals. 

[LGR4GM]

48 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Talking about guys Murray traded for 

who can remind me why they didn't try to  sign Kane? Exactly the type of player they are still desperate for 8 years (or so) later 

 

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Getting the fans to go bonkers in order to ratchet up some pressure on the Sabres is precisely the idea GMs (and agents for that matter) have in mind when it comes to the sort of media manipulation @PromoTheRobotalludes to in that particular post. Makes sense given how bonkers we fans currently are. Especially when it comes to KA over-valuing prospects and being afraid to pull the trigger on deals. 

Again, perhaps he wasn't throwing shade at the fans for once.  You can give him the benefit of the doubt if you really want to.  But in this particular instance, IMHO, past performance should be considered indicative of present results.

Edited 3 hours ago by Taro T

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

When it's that many that never met their potential , you might want to start looking at the organizations ability to develop their prospects 

I'd argue McCabe and Zadorov reached their potential. They're both top-4 guys, and can be especially effective with the correct partner. In a best-case scenario, Zadorov could be a top pair guy, but the offense was never touted as amazing, so top-4 is solid.

Girgensons has been a 4th liner for over a dozen years in the NHL. He was miscast by the Sabres because they drafted him when they found themselves with no center spine, but for a mid-1st he has panned out.

Grigorenko was a bust. He was also rushed, and maybe could have been more with a longer development curve and a bunch of time in Rochester. They need him to be much more and he was not that.

Ristolainen is a disappointment. Another rushed prospect because he was blocked by the likes of Benoit and Meszaros. With proper coaching and a slower timeline, maybe he could have been the top-pair guy. He looked like Ivan Drago, but a boxer also needs to be a technician when they're facing well-schooled boxes of similar athletic prowess. He's always been overpaid since his second contract because he was gifted PP1 time... but he's not a bust: he's still in the league all these years later.

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Actually, yes.  Ice skates glide on a trail of liquid water.  The concentrated force of the blade on the ice creates enough localized pressure to temporarily melt the ice into water, and it acts as a lubricant that the skater glides on.

Then it’s not ice anymore. Is ice wet? 

[Doohickie]

18 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Then it’s not ice anymore. Is ice wet? 

Sure it's ice.  It's just a phase it's going through.

 

😉

[PromoTheRobot]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Stop trying to blame fans for Adams incompetence. 

😂 That's a stretch.

7 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Adams has backed himself into a corner. By not making needed moves in years prior, he has put himself in a spot where he has to make moves to save his job. And the league knows it. 

So make bad moves because?

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Getting the fans to go bonkers in order to ratchet up some pressure on the Sabres is precisely the idea GMs (and agents for that matter) have in mind when it comes to the sort of media manipulation @PromoTheRobotalludes to in that particular post. Makes sense given how bonkers we fans currently are. Especially when it comes to KA over-valuing prospects and being afraid to pull the trigger on deals. 

What is the difference between overvaluing your players in a trade and not accepting a deal that you think is inadequate? Does anyone recall how upset fans were that Adams didn't trade Jack Eichel right away? I'm sure other GMs saw that situation as an opportunity to pry away an elite player for practically nothing. 

Whether you think Tuch, Krebs and picks for Eichel was adequate value, that deal was not done in haste.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by PromoTheRobot

[Archie Lee]

12 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

So make bad moves because?

Nobody is saying Adams should make bad moves.

Edited 2 hours ago by Archie Lee

[oddoublee]

34 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Then it’s not ice anymore. Is ice wet? 

Lol...you got me to actually it up. The answer....Yes! Ice is always wet.