Has the Adams rebuild failed completely?

[Scottysabres]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, can anyone here show anything that says the defense improved? GA didn't prove the defense improved, it proves the goaltending did.

Ok, I'll play.

Can you definitively show where the defense hasn't improved. Shots against, defensive zone possession time, defensive zone takeaways/giveaways, shot blocking, shot danger zone increase/decrease didn't prove the goaltending improved, it proved the defense did.

Shrugs

[Pimlach]

35 minutes ago, nucci said:

He's been GM since June 2020 and his teams have yet to make the playoffs. That should be considered a failure.

By most accounts yes.  But this is a Pegula hockey team.   Adams was operating under strict cost controls  -  forced under the cap while bringing in NHL stalwarts like Bjork, Sheahan, Irwin, Hagg, Hinostoza,  Reider, Houser, Subban, Tokarski, Dell, Jost, Comrie, Stillman, Clague and Robinson.  There are more. 

I could give you the list of players shipped out in that time frame but that will hurt and leave a mark. 

Pegula knows they are not trying to win and he is ok with it.   

Next year.  Just wait until next year.  

 

[SabreFinn]

9 hours ago, Brawndo said:

The obstacle is the internal salary cap placed by the owner. 
There were deals to be made last offseason for veterans but the incoming salaries would have pushed beyond that cap, so they were nixed. 
Adams took the job and carried out Pegula’s effective, efficient and economic plan, with the understanding that there would be a time to switch back to a spending mode. 
The thought amongst the Front Office last summer was to start that process, unfortunately the person who sets the budget did not 

I feel sad reading this. But it explains a lot. And it makes me think that the owner does not understand this sort off entertainment business at all. But most people here knew this I guess.

[Believer]

43 minutes ago, JohnC said:

No question that pro sports are very much a high stakes business. But it's also a competition. If there is little desire to compete with the big boys, then it's better to get out. 

What's really frustrating about Terry Pegula is that he has become a behind the curtain invisible owner. No one knows what his thoughts are regarding this stumbling franchise.

Pegula isn’t committed to the Sabres winning. It’s the investment appreciation and ownership status that keeps him an owner, imo.

[Cranky old man]

Don Granato is a bad head coach whose team went bad even before they got good. How is he going to improve this group? They don’t seem to care what he says. Their first period floundering says it all. I just cannot picture success with Uncle Don leading a group of men. He needs an experienced new staff. Terry baby, blow the moths out of your Sabre wallet, hire a couple hard edge, high experience assistant coaches. Find a way to get Skinny off your team (pay some salary and a draft pick); move on from girgs. We don’t need zero playoff veterans. Your new coaches will have guys they know and like around the nhl who can shape your team. KA could use guidance in this matter. If I were GM NOBODY listed as team core would be untouchable. One has to have an open mind. If trading Thompson or Cozens could get you three pieces, you have to consider it. KA has quickly moved us towards a cap team with a lot of long term contracts, and nothing to show for it ( it’s like he never did this before). We have a butt load of scorers with potential not on the sabres. They have to be in play, if not now—-when. 

[PASabreFan]

So just a regular playoff team? Is that the goal? What if it can't win a series? How much time and patience does KA get to build a team that can win a series? Become a contender? Actually win one of the damned, ugly things?

I mean, we're just getting started. Does he get five years for each additional goal?

[SabresVet]

9 minutes ago, SabreFinn said:

I feel sad reading this. But it explains a lot. And it makes me think that the owner does not understand this sort off entertainment business at all. But most people here knew this I guess.

TPegs is a business guy first and foremost.  When he bought the team fan sentiment was still high, the arena was in better shape, and revenue was high(er) to costs.  Now, attendance has declined, the arena needs upgrades, and they're likely losing money overall.  His response is to cut spending to the floor on players and keep a thinner front office while hiring/retaining a GM he knows, but is unqualified.  And we continue to hear that TPegs is meddling in personnel.      

For Bills fans, it's a replay of the late Ralph Wilson years.  RW would spend when the team was good and profits were healthy.  When that changed, spending was cut, which led to less chance the on-field result being decent.  Ralph or his handlers would meddle in personnel decisions as well, allowing the bad seasons to mount.  Then, when they needed coaches or GM's they couldn't hide how no one wanted to work under those conditions.  And, Ralph would only hire people he knew personally which is how, in late 2009, the Bills ended up with Buddy Nix as GM.     

Point to all of this is, despite what they say, owners are business people first and they're not going to lose money to chase wins.  

[Eli Cash]

Could Adams have done this better this year?  Most certainly.  Really seems like it comes down to ownership though.
 

Team was able to sell hope going into this season.  What are they selling going into next season?  Another head coach?  A new GM?  A retread or no-name won’t move the needle.  Only thing that would spark my imagination is a proven front office executive who is empowered to remove the stench of futility from the organization.  Short of that, hard to imagine there is a free agent splash or big name/big salary in the offing.  

I don’t want TP to sell.  I just want him to show that he cares just even a little about the team that means so much to all of us.

 

 

 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I will be watching what moves this front office makes this offseason. I'm not advocating for or expecting some blockbuster deal/s that dramatically alter the shape of this roster. The Greenway and Clifton acquisitions were good/solid additions. My hope is that there will be at least a couple deals that are on a higher level to improve this team. If that doesn't happen, then I place the onus on the owner. My fear (hope that I'm wrong) is that he has lost his passion for the failed franchise he has presided over. It just seems to me that as an owner over the past number of years he has acted as if he is a bean counter in a turbulent business cycle. If that is the case, he is in the wrong business. No question that pro sports are very much a high stakes business. But it's also a competition. If there is little desire to compete with the big boys, then it's better to get out. 

What's really frustrating about Terry Pegula is that he has become a behind the curtain invisible owner. No one knows what his thoughts are regarding this stumbling franchise. That's not how an owner should operate. No one's arguing that he should be a high-profile owner constantly bellowing out his opinions. But his sphinx-like act behavior while his franchise struggles is getting tiresome. 

If they make one big move it should be for a center for the top 6.   I know they have prospects to look at but they need to replace thwe big hole left by Mitts.  

They need to shore up the bottom 6 too, it is really bad. 

I still think they are missing that big, strong, defense first, top 4 defender but I am about to give up on that.  I don't think they brought in Byram for nothing.  Adams wants them all to be fast and mobile and good passers.  Unfortunately,  teams can feast by hanging out in front of UPL.  

Top 7 Defense and current age: 

Dahlin - 24

Power - 22 

Byram - 22

Muel - 24

Clifton - 28

Jokiharju - 24

R. Johnson - 22

Ave = 23.7 

WOW!  

 

 

[nucci]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

By most accounts yes.  But this is a Pegula hockey team.   Adams was operating under strict cost controls  -  forced under the cap while bringing in NHL stalwarts like Bjork, Sheahan, Irwin, Hagg, Hinostoza,  Reider, Houser, Subban, Tokarski, Dell, Jost, Comrie, Stillman, Clague and Robinson.  There are more. 

I could give you the list of players shipped out in that time frame but that will hurt and leave a mark. 

Pegula knows they are not trying to win and he is ok with it.   

Next year.  Just wait until next year.  

 

I get all this. I was just replying to thread title but agree 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

Ok, I'll play.

Can you definitively show where the defense hasn't improved. Shots against, defensive zone possession time, defensive zone takeaways/giveaways, shot blocking, shot danger zone increase/decrease didn't prove the goaltending improved, it proved the defense did.

Shrugs

Oddly passive aggressive. I however went and looked to see how the defense improved. It did, the problem is that is cost us the offense and the net defensive gain was canceled out by the net offensive less. 

[LGR4GM]

54 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

TPegs is a business guy first and foremost.  When he bought the team fan sentiment was still high, the arena was in better shape, and revenue was high(er) to costs.  Now, attendance has declined, the arena needs upgrades, and they're likely losing money overall.  His response is to cut spending to the floor on players and keep a thinner front office while hiring/retaining a GM he knows, but is unqualified.  And we continue to hear that TPegs is meddling in personnel.      

For Bills fans, it's a replay of the late Ralph Wilson years.  RW would spend when the team was good and profits were healthy.  When that changed, spending was cut, which led to less chance the on-field result being decent.  Ralph or his handlers would meddle in personnel decisions as well, allowing the bad seasons to mount.  Then, when they needed coaches or GM's they couldn't hide how no one wanted to work under those conditions.  And, Ralph would only hire people he knew personally which is how, in late 2009, the Bills ended up with Buddy Nix as GM.     

Point to all of this is, despite what they say, owners are business people first and they're not going to lose money to chase wins.  

Pegula is not losing money. Let's say for arguments sake that the Sabres are a net -10million every year in real dollars because Terrry drove the team into the ground and ppl don't want to pay him money to be bored for 2.5 hours. Terry bought the team for about 200million and can sell them tomorrow for 1billion without any fuss. That means that it would take 80 years for Terry Pegula to actually be negative on this investment. It is a straight up lie he peddles that he is losing money on the team, he isn't. The asset he acquired has almost doubled 3 times in 13 years which is easily a top 1% in terms of ROI. So sure, Terry might lose a few million because again, he ran his team into the ground and ppl won't pay to watch his trash, but overall the guy is up hundreds of millions of dollars. Never believe Pegula when he claims he "lost money", he hasn't and he won't. Sports teams are a very rare commodity. 

[Scottysabres]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Oddly passive aggressive. I however went and looked to see how the defense improved. It did, the problem is that is cost us the offense and the net defensive gain was canceled out by the net offensive less. 

Fair assessment. 

[#freejame]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Pegula is not losing money. Let's say for arguments sake that the Sabres are a net -10million every year in real dollars because Terrry drove the team into the ground and ppl don't want to pay him money to be bored for 2.5 hours. Terry bought the team for about 200million and can sell them tomorrow for 1billion without any fuss. That means that it would take 80 years for Terry Pegula to actually be negative on this investment. It is a straight up lie he peddles that he is losing money on the team, he isn't. The asset he acquired has almost doubled 3 times in 13 years which is easily a top 1% in terms of ROI. So sure, Terry might lose a few million because again, he ran his team into the ground and ppl won't pay to watch his trash, but overall the guy is up hundreds of millions of dollars. Never believe Pegula when he claims he "lost money", he hasn't and he won't. Sports teams are a very rare commodity. 

Let’s say Terry is actually running -$10M per year. He could more than likely easily borrow against the $800M in ROI he’s gotten. Let’s say he took out a loan for $500M of it. With some finagling, he could have thrown all that into the same 5% Certificate of Deposites that’s been roundly available to everyone and gotten 2.5 years of operating expenses for doing nothing! 

The funny thing about this is it neglects the fact that Terry's money is almost certainly growing significantly faster than 5%. My 401k grew at 16% last year and something tells me he’s got better money men than I do.

If Terry cannot invest in the Sabres, it’s because he either lacks liquid, foresight, or care. And honestly those are all pretty much the same thing when it comes to investing. 

It’s a complete joke that’s being pull over much more than the eyes of Buffalo Sabres fans. Sometimes I think people have never played around on a calculator. 

Edited April 15 by #freejame
I understand this neglects the cost of the loan. The points still stand. Money isn’t really, George.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Let’s say Terry is actually running -$10M per year. He could more than likely easily borrow against the $800M in ROI he’s gotten. Let’s say he took out a loan for $500M of it. With some finagling, he could have thrown all that into the same 5% Certificate of Deposites that’s been roundly available to everyone and gotten 2.5 years of operating expenses for doing nothing! 

The funny thing about this is it neglects the fact that Terry's money is almost certainly growing significantly faster than 5%. My 401k grew at 16% last year and something tells me he’s got better money men than I do.

If Terry cannot invest in the Sabres, it’s because he either lacks liquid, foresight, or care. And honestly those are all pretty much the same thing when it comes to investing. 

It’s a complete joke that’s being pull over much more than the eyes of Buffalo Sabres fans. Sometimes I think people have never played around on a calculator. 

Not to mention if he is running a -10mil (I made that number up to make math easier, it is problem more like -2mil) he gets to write that off on his taxes every year. As you say, he can do so many things to offset his losses because they are such a small amount. 

[SabresVet]

35 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Pegula is not losing money. Let's say for arguments sake that the Sabres are a net -10million every year in real dollars because Terrry drove the team into the ground and ppl don't want to pay him money to be bored for 2.5 hours. Terry bought the team for about 200million and can sell them tomorrow for 1billion without any fuss. That means that it would take 80 years for Terry Pegula to actually be negative on this investment. It is a straight up lie he peddles that he is losing money on the team, he isn't. The asset he acquired has almost doubled 3 times in 13 years which is easily a top 1% in terms of ROI. So sure, Terry might lose a few million because again, he ran his team into the ground and ppl won't pay to watch his trash, but overall the guy is up hundreds of millions of dollars. Never believe Pegula when he claims he "lost money", he hasn't and he won't. Sports teams are a very rare commodity. 

This is like saying you bought a home in 2011 for 150k.  You haven't been putting much into it, but it's doubled in value by 2024 because neighborhood sales are up.  

As this occurred, you had to take a new job because the previous employer let you go in a cost-cutting move.  Your new salary is 20% less than the previous job.

And you're not losing money because the value of your home is way up? Come on dude.

They're losing money because a business has a budget that outlines projected revenue and costs.  And when costs exceed revenue, that's a loss.  Revenue does not include potential value of the business.       

Edited April 15 by SabresVet

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

This is like saying you bought a home in 2011 for 150k.  You haven't been putting much into it, but it's doubled in value by 2024 because neighborhood sales are up.  

As this occurred, you had to take a new job because the previous employer let you go in a cost-cutting move.  Your new salary is 20% less than the previous job.

And you're not losing money because the value of your home is way up? Come on dude.

They're losing money because a business has a budget that outlines projected revenue and costs.  And when costs exceed revenue, that's a loss.  Revenue does not include potential value of the business.       

You are viewing it at a micro level, that of the Sabres. Terry Pegula is not losing money here, nor will he. Also the reason the Sabres are not in the black is a direct result of the owner not selling a product ppl want to buy. 

[SabresVet]

44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You are viewing it at a micro level, that of the Sabres. Terry Pegula is not losing money here, nor will he. Also the reason the Sabres are not in the black is a direct result of the owner not selling a product ppl want to buy. 

I'm sorry you don't adequately understand business, budgeting, and management so this conversation might continue.  

EDIT: If you want to conclude that TPegs' decisions have negatively impacted the bottom line, that's fair and I'd agree with you.  

It doesn't change that the Buffalo Sabres have a budget, they (like most teams) will not exceed that budget, and without increased revenue will continue along the path they've taken since COVID impacted the business.  

Edited April 15 by SabresVet

[#freejame]

57 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

This is like saying you bought a home in 2011 for 150k.  You haven't been putting much into it, but it's doubled in value by 2024 because neighborhood sales are up.  

As this occurred, you had to take a new job because the previous employer let you go in a cost-cutting move.  Your new salary is 20% less than the previous job.

And you're not losing money because the value of your home is way up? Come on dude.

They're losing money because a business has a budget that outlines projected revenue and costs.  And when costs exceed revenue, that's a loss.  Revenue does not include potential value of the business.       

No it’s like saying you bought a house in 2011. The house has increased in value over 5x over and your other assets have increased in value from $3.8B in 2014 to $6.8B in 2024. Who gives a ***** if your job cuts your salary by 20%? Nobody in that stratosphere of wealth earns money through salary anyway.

You are not a billionaire. I am not a billionaire. Money is not the same thing to us as it is Terry Pegula. This isn’t a conversation about the financials of the Buffalo Sabres anyway, its a conversation about Terry Pegula and his finances. The fact is that the franchise HAS AN UNREALIZED GAIN LARGER THAN THE GDP OF ENTIRE COUNTRIES. Buying the Buffalo Sabres has been incredibly beneficial to Terry and not at all so to the Sabres. 

 

[Brawndo]

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

Damn do you have specifics on which deals were nixed that Adams had completed? 

No names given, they want to revisit this summer depending on their cap allowance 

[Rasmus_]

I do think the main core is good enough to make it to the playoffs.  However they need to break up some of the same and add different elements.  See Brady Tkachuk, William Carrier, etc for some more grit.

They needed to mix it up a bit regardless if the Middlestadt for Byram deal was the right one.  There definitely needs to be tweaking.  That being said we are always reacting to a situation instead of getting ahead of it.  Injuries and off years happen to every team, so they need to bring in new veteran leadership.  Also a lot more fight!

Edited April 15 by Rasmus_

[SwampD]

13 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Is there any indication that the owner is in a hurry to make the playoffs? 
 

Since the 2021 TDL, the team has not retained any salary in a trade, acted as a broker for other teams, not taken any salary dumps for assets ( Bishop’s Contract to hit the cap floor does not count) nor have they spent anywhere near the salary cap over the past three seasons. This is coming from above Adams. 

Adams was relieved when there was no retention in the Okposo or Johnson Deals I wonder why that is 

Colorado gave Philly a 2025 1st for taking Ryan Johansen as a cap dump, does anyone here believe that the same deal wasn’t offered to Buffalo in the Mitts Trade?  That pick could have been used as a trade chip this summer. 
 

There have been rumors of restrictions on spending to make up for Covid losses. Unless this changes, this team may be stuck in neutral. 

13 hours ago, Brawndo said:

The obstacle is the internal salary cap placed by the owner. 
There were deals to be made last offseason for veterans but the incoming salaries would have pushed beyond that cap, so they were nixed. 
Adams took the job and carried out Pegula’s effective, efficient and economic plan, with the understanding that there would be a time to switch back to a spending mode. 
The thought amongst the Front Office last summer was to start that process, unfortunately the person who sets the budget did not 

The policy Terry puts forth this summer will tell us a lot about whether or not he gives a crap about winning.

Until then, I have no opinion about where this team is headed.

Or where the rebuild is a failure or not.

[SabresVet]

38 minutes ago, #freejame said:

No it’s like saying you bought a house in 2011. The house has increased in value over 5x over and your other assets have increased in value from $3.8B in 2014 to $6.8B in 2024. Who gives a ***** if your job cuts your salary by 20%? Nobody in that stratosphere of wealth earns money through salary anyway.

You are not a billionaire. I am not a billionaire. Money is not the same thing to us as it is Terry Pegula. This isn’t a conversation about the financials of the Buffalo Sabres anyway, its a conversation about Terry Pegula and his finances. The fact is that the franchise HAS AN UNREALIZED GAIN LARGER THAN THE GDP OF ENTIRE COUNTRIES. Buying the Buffalo Sabres has been incredibly beneficial to Terry and not at all so to the Sabres.

You want the owner to, because his net worth is in the billions, lose money on your favorite hockey team.  Not going to happen no matter how many times you pound that sand.  

The badly underperforming hockey team is under no obligation to lose millions of dollars a year as an olive branch to bring back fans and win more games.    

We can all agree TPegs is not a good owner, is out of his element, doesn't know hockey like he thinks he does, etc.  Still doesn't mean he's going to open up the check book and splurge like he did back in 2011-12. 

[Crusader1969]

13 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

 

Ohhhh don't get me wrong. I don't want that either.  I'm just saying that's how close they are to turning this ship around 

[SwampD]

9 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

You want the owner to, because his net worth is in the billions, lose money on your favorite hockey team.  Not going to happen no matter how many times you pound that sand.  

The badly underperforming hockey team is under no obligation to lose millions of dollars a year as an olive branch to bring back fans and win more games.    

We can all agree TPegs is not a good owner, is out of his element, doesn't know hockey like he thinks he does, etc.  Still doesn't mean he's going to open up the check book and splurge like he did back in 2011-12. 

You are not saying anything that anyone disagrees with.

Except for the excuse being used as the reason. Net, Tpegs  is not losing money every year.

Edited April 15 by SwampD