Opinions Wanted: Controversy in a mens hockey league

[Quint]

 

https://thehockeynews.com/womens/college/university-of-michigan-womens-coach-harassed-in-adult-hockey-league-in-detroit

I just read this story in The Hockey News where the (female) coach of the Women's Michigan Wolverines college hockey team was the only female player in a mens league aged 30s-40s in the Detroit area. 

She was body checked during a game and a penalty was called on the offender, followed by taunts from opposing players about how she's a woman playing in a mens league and wasn't wanted. 

She waited out in the lobby after the game, hoping for an apology, followed by the taunts again and then she started crying. 

She concluded by saying "hockey is for everyone." 

Now I've played with women before in my pickup roller games. (B+C level) Some of the goalies were good. One guy who was a mediocre player himself insisted on bringing his wife, who could hardly skate at all. She was a forward. The guys would lay off of her, like they would with the very young or inexperienced players who would be brought along, hoping to develop their ability with the speed of the game. But she never got better. She was in her 40s and slowed the game down every time. Last I heard, she slipped and fell in her kitchen on a concrete floor and broke her leg...

In my opinion, women skaters shouldn't be playing with men unless it's a very special situation like goaltending. Men are just so much stronger that the women might get badly hurt. Hockey is a contact sport, and even if the games are non-contact, accidents happen. For me, it takes some of the fun out of the games.

Call me misogynist, call me misandrist or call me un-PC. What say you? 

[#freejame]

8/10 if someone in men’s league waits around outside to continue an on-ice conversation it ends in blows. It’s hockey. You’re going to get chirped. I’ve played with many women significantly better than me and it was never an issue of gender. I’ve also played where I was the worst on the ice and I was the issue, and you best believe I was chirped. 

[Marvin]

Whether we like it or not, genetic adult males generally are bigger, stronger, and faster than genetic adult females.   So I think that keeping the genders separate makes sense.

Having said that, I have an ex-GF who played in a men's league with her wife because they were good enough and there was no women's league at the time where she lived.   (Yes, her wife.  Yes, I was her last BF.)  She asked me what I thought of them trying out.  I told her that it will be like it is for the two of them as women doing research STEM, except their are pads, skates, and sticks.  They knew the deal and dished it out as well as took the hits.  But that is the exception.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The first thing they teach in law school is that the answer to all questions is it depends.  Questions such as; Is there a women's adult league?  Is she skilled enough to play in the league?  What are the checking rules in the league? etc....

The biggest issue for me is the lack of decorum by the male players.  There is never a place for boarish behavior.  The "it's hockey" excuse is BS.  Chirping is one thing, but this sounds like they crossed the line to abusive.

Edited February 6 by GASabresIUFAN

[#freejame]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The first thing they teach in law school is that the answer to all questions is it depends.  Questions such as; Is there a women's adult league?  Is she skilled enough to play in the league?  What are the checking rules in the league? etc....

The biggest issue for me is the lack of decorum by the male players.  There is never a place for boarish behavior.  

I don’t know why but I’m always surprised by the players in most men’s leagues. I guess there was always 1-2 questionable guys per team when I was growing up, but there seems like a much higher ratio of ***** in bar league. Possibly the booze.

[msw2112]

I played in some co-ed leagues and also some men's leagues where a few women who were former NCAA Division 1 hockey players participated.  These women were among the best players on the rink.  I couldn't check them, because I couldn't catch them....I think it's fine for them to participate if they have the skill and toughness to do it.  They shouldn't be treated any differently than any other player.  That said, despite chirping in hockey being a part of the game, there are certain things were you "don't go there" like race, religion, family, and offensive gender-related comments.

[inkman]

49 minutes ago, Quint said:

 

https://thehockeynews.com/womens/college/university-of-michigan-womens-coach-harassed-in-adult-hockey-league-in-detroit

I just read this story in The Hockey News where the (female) coach of the Women's Michigan Wolverines college hockey team was the only female player in a mens league aged 30s-40s in the Detroit area. 

She was body checked during a game and a penalty was called on the offender, followed by taunts from opposing players about how she's a woman playing in a mens league and wasn't wanted. 

 

She waited out in the lobby after the game, hoping for an apology, followed by the taunts again and then she started crying. 

She concluded by saying "hockey is for everyone." 

Now I've played with women before in my pickup roller games. (B+C level) Some of the goalies were good. One guy who was a mediocre player himself insisted on bringing his wife, who could hardly skate at all. She was a forward. The guys would lay off of her, like they would with the very young or inexperienced players who would be brought along, hoping to develop their ability with the speed of the game. But she never got better. She was in her 40s and slowed the game down every time. Last I heard, she slipped and fell in her kitchen on a concrete floor and broke her leg...

In my opinion, women skaters shouldn't be playing with men unless it's a very special situation like goaltending. Men are just so much stronger that the women might get badly hurt. Hockey is a contact sport, and even if the games are non-contact, accidents happen. For me, it takes some of the fun out of the games.

Call me misogynist, call me misandrist or call me un-PC. What say you? 

Your kitchen comment definitely smacks of misogyny 

[inkman]

My question is why didn’t any of her teammates come to her defense?  Are they also pricks like the other team and just let her fend for herself.  Maybe she should be in a women’s league but if she was on my team I’d at least returned the favor to whoever took exception to her playing.  

[Weave]

I’ve played against women in mens leagues.  Never saw any inappropriate behavior.  Never minded playing against them.  Did I play differently when a female was coming down the wing?  Yes.  Whatevs.  Bar leagues are for recreation.  If you can’t enjoy yourself because there is a woman on the ice, the problem is you.

[erickompositör72]

I play in a beer league (mostly 30/40/50yr olds), and there are plenty of female players. If anything, I see them get less sympathy from the refs than the men (they get pushed around and penalties not called, when it would get called against a male player). While that last bit is anecdotal, the female players don't ask for any special treatment. The female players on my team have been some of the best skaters I've played with.

I think the idea of not allowing a female to play with men based on gender (in a recreational/"beer" league), is absolutely ludicrous, backwards, and not excusable in any culture deeming itself "modern"

[Shoot da Puck]

Women should cook meals and do the laundry.

[Chair]

47 minutes ago, inkman said:

Your kitchen comment definitely smacks of misogyny 

[shrader]

I absolutely flattened a woman in my beer league one time. We were skating parallel completely unaware of each other and then we both turned into the same lane. It felt great until I realized who it was. She was a very good player who definitely belonged out there, but she had no chance in that collision. 

[RangerDave]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

genetic adult males generally are bigger, stronger, and faster than genetic adult females

While this is generally true, there are many adult females who are bigger, stronger, and faster than some adult males.  Let those who can, play.

[thewookie1]

It really depends on the circumstances to be honest. If she legitimately can play with the guys; then she needs to be able to handle the guys. Now if they were throwing out slurs then her teammates should have taken offense and defended her. Or better yet get one of them with a good slash when the ref ain’t looking. Smaller male players also get bullied in some leagues. 
 

The story given feels rather hokey to me however. Akin to a cheesy movie with a “lesson.” I’m of two minds here. Trash talking is very much apart of sports and I’d guess plenty of players have been ridiculed by the opposing team after penalties are called. Hiding behind your gender isn’t any way to become better involved with the general group. And crying over it while saying “Hockey is for everyone” isn’t going to fix the problem. If anything you’ll be looked at worse. Especially if there either a co-Ed or women’s league alternative. 
 

That being said the lack of push back by her teammates is embarrassing. Stick up for your damn teammates! You don’t need to start a brawl but chirp back. 
 

Part of the issues in the culture today falls into this mindset. Get insulted or made fun of, immediately run to a higher authority and whine about it. All she’s accomplished is making a bunch of men respect her even less. 
 

All of this is mute in this case however if this was inappropriate behavior and language. If this was general hockey chirping though; it’s on her and her team to put them in their place because chirping is and should be allowed.

[LTS]

Given that a penalty was called I will assume this was a league, like most USA Hockey leagues, where checking is not allowed.  Contact often does occur, but clearly the hit crossed the line and an infraction was called.

The comments go beyond chirping and quite easily qualify as sexist.  It does not matter if there is a women's league, she's allowed to play in the league she is in.

In my now near 30 years of experience I have skated against and with quite a few women. There's no stereotype to be had there as they crossed the same skill gamut as the men I've skated against.  But only once that I can recall have I ever heard inappropriate comments and that was in my first 2 years of playing "beer league".

I'm not going to pass judgment on anything in this article as there's a single point of view provided. That said, the behavior is unwarranted and down right boorish. It's not good-natured, it's just mean and an example of people choosing to be a-holes when they could choose to be better.

[Weave]

This is ***** stupid.  Its a beer league.  Everyone is there for recreation and exercise.  Everyone has a real job to get to the next day.  It’s absolutely ridiculous to expect someone in that situation to have the means, personality, or will to come to someone’s aid here.  It’s a ***** beer league.

And yeah, some white knight should have come to defend her honor.  Now there is some real progress.  LMAO

She came into a situation where she expected to be treated as equal.  Was plastered in a league that certainly regulated contact, as evidenced by the penalty handed out.  And then taunted afterwards.  And she’s the one who handled it poorly.  *eyeroll*
 

[LTS]

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

This is ***** stupid.  Its a beer league.  Everyone is there for recreation and exercise.  Everyone has a real job to get to the next day.  It’s absolutely ridiculous to expect someone in that situation to have the means, personality, or will to come to someone’s aid here.  It’s a ***** beer league.

And yeah, some white knight should have come to defend her honor.  Now there is some real progress.  LMAO

She came into a situation where she expected to be treated as equal.  Was plastered in a league that certainly regulated contact, as evidenced by the penalty handed out.  And then taunted afterwards.  And she’s the one who handled it poorly.  *eyeroll*
 

To this end... and I agree 100% here.  The only defense I would expect would be the same as I have seen when some other inappropriate remarks have been made on the ice... pretty much everyone saying "Whoa there, that's just not acceptable."  Naturally I am paraphrasing.

If she were on my team and the other team were saying that I would definitely say something to the idiots on the other team. I'd also point out USA Hockey's Zero Tolerance policy to the officials. I'm not going to stay quiet as that feels like I'm tacitly agreeing with the sexist comments.

I mean, if I can get tossed from a game for calling another player a "puck" head...

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I’ve played against women in mens leagues.  Never saw any inappropriate behavior.  Never minded playing against them.  Did I play differently when a female was coming down the wing?  Yes.  Whatevs.  Bar leagues are for recreation.  If you can’t enjoy yourself because there is a woman on the ice, the problem is you.

I agree. Even in the mid 80's when I was a teenager, a few girls joined us at Sabreland for games, never an issue.

They were never as good as me, and I'd they were.......I'll never admit to it, because......ego 😜 

But ya man, was never an issue. If people are mocking due to gender, that's bull *****. Play the game, it's all for fun in rec leagues.

[Mango]

I think some of the vibe here is that there are women who play hockey and that there are hockey players who are men, and the two are different. They are not. This woman has basically dedicated a good portion of her life and becoming a hockey professional. So maybe she is more of a hockey player than the bar league men are who played HS JV and picked it up again at 35. 

This one sounds like it crossed a line and is about far more than contact along the boards. 

 

[Weave]

6 minutes ago, LTS said:

To this end... and I agree 100% here.  The only defense I would expect would be the same as I have seen when some other inappropriate remarks have been made on the ice... pretty much everyone saying "Whoa there, that's just not acceptable."  Naturally I am paraphrasing.

If she were on my team and the other team were saying that I would definitely say something to the idiots on the other team. I'd also point out USA Hockey's Zero Tolerance policy to the officials. I'm not going to stay quiet as that feels like I'm tacitly agreeing with the sexist comments.

I mean, if I can get tossed from a game for calling another player a "puck" head...

Agreed.  I would expect that someone, and not just from her team either, should have said something.  Made it known that a line is being crossed.

Defending her honor like she’s some damsel in distress though, ugh. 

[#freejame]

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

Agreed.  I would expect that someone, and not just from her team either, should have said something.  Made it known that a line is being crossed.

Defending her honor like she’s some damsel in distress though, ugh. 

Just to play devils advocate here—when does defending a teammate cross over to defending a woman’s honor when you’re playing hockey? 

[Night Train]

3 hours ago, Quint said:

 

Call me misogynist, call me misandrist or call me un-PC. What say you? 

[Big Guava]

Women need to stop with this nonsense that they are "equal" physically to men.

They aren't. It's not even debatable. Physically they cannot compete. Even Serena Williams, one of the greatest female tennis players ever said she would be lucky to be in the Top 500 if she played in the Men's tournament.

Men are bigger, faster and stronger than women. They accelerate faster, they can jump higher, they are more athletic in terms of doing things at top speed.

The multiple time Woman's World Cup winning USWNT has gotten crushed by high school under-14 boys teams. Could you imagine the Bills getting drubbed by a high school team? Even the worst NFL team would beat the best high school team like 80-0.

If women want to continue this nonsensical crusade then they deserve whatever comes their way. Go start a league with women and play in it.

Edited February 7 by Big Guava

[#freejame]

14 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

Women need to stop with this nonsense that they are "equal" physically to men.

They aren't. It's not even debatable. Physically they cannot compete. Even Serena Williams, one of the greatest female tennis players ever said she would be lucky to be in the Top 500 if she played in the Men's tournament.

Men are bigger, faster and stronger than women. They accelerate faster, they can jump higher, they are more athletic in terms of doing things at top speed.

The multiple time Woman's World Cup winning USWNT has gotten crushed by high school under-14 boys teams. Could you imagine the Bills getting drubbed by a high school team? Even the worst NFL team would beat the best high school team like 80-0.

If women want to continue this nonsensical crusade then they deserve whatever comes their way. Go start a league with women and play in it.

How does any of this apply to bar league hockey? It’s already divided by skill. If a woman is good enough to skate in that division, nothing else really matters.