Blow the Whole Team up in the Off-Season - It's the Only Reasonable Thing to do

[JoeSchmoe]

Looking at Adam's recent acquisitions really shows what being cheap gets you (5 on 5 relative xGF%). Greenway being the notable exception... Though playing the majority of his minutes with Mittelstadt might have something to do with it.

 

[DarthEbriate]

So we're bypassing firing the coach and going direct to

 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

the coaches are the problem not the players. 

I don't disagree with this, but there is an element of quit on this team that shouldn't be there. Better veteran leadership would definitely help. I am not sure how coachable some of these players are. 

[North Buffalo]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is a difficult but inevitable discussion. I was all for the initial Adams blow it up and start over and prior to this season I would not have wanted another one. I did say last year though that we were in a very fragile culture building moment and it could fall apart easily. I think they blew it and broke it when they failed to make a free agency impact (or hockey trade(s)) and brought back Kyle as captain. 

Now to be clear, it's not Kyle's fault. He actually does a lot of the right things despite his diminished talent and on a good team he'd be just fine, but he was not the right leader for this fragile young team. They blew it with ROR and they blew it here and I suspect they will blow it again. 

There are multiple factors, but I think it's broken again and I think it's possible it does need to be blown up again. I do not think Pegula will make the right moves, but here is what I believe needs to be done. 

1. Fire Adams, Granato, and all the assistant coaches (you may need an interim to end the season so you can use Appert for that)

2. Hire a hockey guy. A senior advisor. Listen to him.

3. New GM, new coach. Let them evaluate attitude and desire and accountability and decide on the subtractions like Philly did. 

4. Bring in veteran leadership to surround the kids you keep. 

5. Tear out all the luxuries in the locker room. No ipads. No games. No between the stalls. No frills. No spas. You want it? You f'n earn it and then it'll come back and not before. 

As I type this I realize there's a lot more numbers and this could go on and on so I'm going to stop cause I know it won't happen. We need a new culture of hard work every night and full accountability. If we do not get it, this nightmare will never end.

My view is Sabres, though I doubt they will, just need a couple of tweaks with Veterans... not sure about coaches on a young team... lose KO, Ollie and probably Girgenson... bring in some hungry vets which will require spending money... Skinner should be considered for a trade as well just not sure what is left on his contract... consider using some of recent picks such as Savoie and Kulich to help make any move happening but KA needs to get aggressive... not holding my breath... show me. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, North Buffalo said:

My view is Sabres, though I doubt they will, just need a couple of tweaks with Veterans... not sure about coaches on a young team... lose KO, Ollie and probably Girgenson... bring in some hungry vets which will require spending money... Skinner should be considered for a trade as well just not sure what is left on his contract... consider using some of recent picks such as Savoie and Kulich to help make any move happening but KA needs to get aggressive... not holding my breath... show me. 

Maybe, if they are the right moves, but I'm not sure a "couple of tweaks" is enough. They didn't address it this off season so I have no faith they address it next season either. I half expect a big off season announcement of "the captain's back" as they re-sign Okposo yet again and act like it's an accomplishment.

I would personally give Skinner away for free because I do think he is part of the problem, but I've thought that since they signed him and with his NTC he isn't going anywhere and Pegula will not buy him out, no way. They do not consider him a problem or at least I don't think they do. 

I'm keeping Kulich over Savoie/Rosen/Östlund but I'd entertain any good offer on anybody. I personally think Kulich MIGHT be an NHLer, or maybe I should say decent NHLer, maybe even a good one, but I have little faith in the other 3. 

[North Buffalo]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Maybe, if they are the right moves, but I'm not sure a "couple of tweaks" is enough. They didn't address it this off season so I have no faith they address it next season either. I half expect a big off season announcement of "the captain's back" as they re-sign Okposo yet again and act like it's an accomplishment.

I would personally give Skinner away for free because I do think he is part of the problem, but I've thought that since they signed him and with his NTC he isn't going anywhere and Pegula will not buy him out, no way. They do not consider him a problem or at least I don't think they do. 

 

God I hope not on Okie... as far as Skiinner goes; I dont think he is a problem so much as he doesnt add what Sabres need, grit better D from forwards and his contract and no trade is an albatross.  As far as attitude I dont think he hurts the team imo.

[OverPowerYou]

The Sabres have already blown up the fan base with 3 different rebuilds. What’s another? We’re still here, just not going to games 

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

My view is Sabres, though I doubt they will, just need a couple of tweaks with Veterans... not sure about coaches on a young team... lose KO, Ollie and probably Girgenson... bring in some hungry vets which will require spending money... Skinner should be considered for a trade as well just not sure what is left on his contract... consider using some of recent picks such as Savoie and Kulich to help make any move happening but KA needs to get aggressive... not holding my breath... show me. 

The problem here is hungry vets don’t sign in Buffalo. 

[Norcal]

How done are the Sabres this season? 

How many seasons has it been? Where's the urgency to fix it? 

Who's next in the pipeline? Anybody saving this team?

Are the Sabres as an organization putting in full effort to win or has it become about stockpiling draftpicks and prospects to admire while they ascend through the ranks in search of their dream.

Is it their dream? For most of them, yeah it probably is but do they all have that passion to achieve it? 

These are just a few questions I'm bouncing around in my head trying to answer but there are no good answers right now.

Everything has turned to *****. This team needs some changes this offseason.

Waiting any longer is unacceptable imo.

[SabreFinn]

First. I did not think we need to overreact and blow everything up again. Things might have gone better than expected last year, so then this was the year when all the misstakes and bad plays are appearing, Ducks third goal the other evening was this season in a nutshell. For me it was not unexpected and I am convinced that they will turn things around and make the play off next year even if KA would not make one single trade.

Then. I started thinking some steps further. Do we want to be a team that just make it to the play offs (like Leafs), or do we want to be a serious contender? Do we have players that can make Sabres a contender? That can be Conn Smythe winners? 

No we do not have those type off players.

I would not want this team to be blown up again. Is there any way to become a contender without doing that?

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, SabreFinn said:

First. I did not think we need to overreact and blow everything up again. Things might have gone better than expected last year, so then this was the year when all the misstakes and bad plays are appearing, Ducks third goal the other evening was this season in a nutshell. For me it was not unexpected and I am convinced that they will turn things around and make the play off next year even if KA would not make one single trade.

Then. I started thinking some steps further. Do we want to be a team that just make it to the play offs (like Leafs), or do we want to be a serious contender? Do we have players that can make Sabres a contender? That can be Conn Smythe winners? 

No we do not have those type off players.

I would not want this team to be blown up again. Is there any way to become a contender without doing that?

We can always swap out from excesses of strengths (fast, skilled forwards) to shore up weaknesses (stay-at-home 1-2 RHD, grittier forwards, veterans overall).  For instance, there was no need for Botterill to trade Ryan O'Reilly to alter locker room chemistry; just shipping out Bogosian and Kane was enough. 

[ska-T Chitown]

19 minutes ago, Marvin said:

We can always swap out from excesses of strengths (fast, skilled forwards) to shore up weaknesses (stay-at-home 1-2 RHD, grittier forwards, veterans overall).  For instance, there was no need for Botterill to trade Ryan O'Reilly to alter locker room chemistry; just shipping out Bogosian and Kane was enough. 

I've mused on it before - has GMKA's plan (right or wrong - I am not endorsing anything, just speculating on what it might be) been to actually establish a position of strength? What was it, like 3 yrs ago at rookie/development people were all hard over some agitator guy as "the best prospect" and I am not even sure that dude is still playing hockey ... point is, the cupboard was bare AF not that long ago, it is not like KA has been stashing away prospects for years and years.

BTW, not directed at you Marvin, just a good post to which I could reply to further my personal agenda 🙂

[Marvin]

10 minutes ago, ska-T Chitown said:

I've mused on it before - has GMKA's plan (right or wrong - I am not endorsing anything, just speculating on what it might be) been to actually establish a position of strength? What was it, like 3 yrs ago at rookie/development people were all hard over some agitator guy as "the best prospect" and I am not even sure that dude is still playing hockey ... point is, the cupboard was bare AF not that long ago, it is not like KA has been stashing away prospects for years and years.

BTW, not directed at you Marvin, just a good post to which I could reply to further my personal agenda 🙂

Good question.  Filling the cupboard really should only be a means to an end.  My perception is that GMKA is too enamoured with his prospects to make a necessary mood.  What is frustrating is that he seems to be aware of the flaws in the team, so why did he not make the moves in the summer?

[ska-T Chitown]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

Good question.  Filling the cupboard really should only be a means to an end.  My perception is that GMKA is too enamoured with his prospects to make a necessary mood.  What is frustrating is that he seems to be aware of the flaws in the team, so why did he not make the moves in the summer?

Yes, having a fully stocked cupboard but nothing on the table is not a good way to do things. I genuinely wonder what other teams thought last summer of the miscellaneous packages of Oreos, Thin Mints, and Little Debbie snacks we had amassed. Obviously fans tend to over-value their own players and each GM probably thinks theirs are somehow a little more likely to do well than other might. That said, I think quite a few of the talking heads thought we had good prospects.

I also mention it because if GMKA does not have a plan other than "how many potentially electric prospects can I hoard?" ... we are truly effed! 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

God I hope not on Okie... as far as Skiinner goes; I dont think he is a problem so much as he doesnt add what Sabres need, grit better D from forwards and his contract and no trade is an albatross.  As far as attitude I dont think he hurts the team imo.

Well I can't be sure on Skinner's influence, but you can look at how Carolina wanted him out, how he clashed with Kreuger (yes I know he was a bad coach but there was still the issue of Skinner being uncoachable) and how on the ice he clearly does whatever he wants to and is out of position all the time. It's hard to have a structured system if you have guys just doing what they want and maybe, just maybe other guys look at him and think "well he's not doing it why should I?"  

idk, longest non playoff streak in the NHL for a player. You can argue it's just bad luck for him but maybe he's part of the reason for it too. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, SabreFinn said:

First. I did not think we need to overreact and blow everything up again. Things might have gone better than expected last year, so then this was the year when all the misstakes and bad plays are appearing, Ducks third goal the other evening was this season in a nutshell. For me it was not unexpected and I am convinced that they will turn things around and make the play off next year even if KA would not make one single trade.

Then. I started thinking some steps further. Do we want to be a team that just make it to the play offs (like Leafs), or do we want to be a serious contender? Do we have players that can make Sabres a contender? That can be Conn Smythe winners? 

No we do not have those type off players.

I would not want this team to be blown up again. Is there any way to become a contender without doing that?

Yes.   Think about the Drury/Briere teams.  They were made up of Sabre developed prospect PLUS the right veterans OBTAINED IN TRADE or FA  - Drury, Briere, Teppo, Grier, were all added to home grown prospects.  We had an emerging NHL goalie, and lots of roll players.  

Now, for Adams to do something like this means he has to trade part of the current group, plus some prospects and picks.   He has not shown inclination or ability to make a hockey trade (not talking trade deadline dumps and tweaks) that make big positive impacts.   

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Yes.   Think about the Drury/Briere teams.  They were made up of Sabre developed prospect PLUS the right veterans OBTAINED IN TRADE or FA  - Drury, Briere, Teppo, Grier, were all added to home grown prospects.  We had an emerging NHL goalie, and lots of roll players.  

Now, for Adams to do something like this means he has to trade part of the current group, plus some prospects and picks.   He has not shown inclination or ability to make a hockey trade (not talking trade deadline dumps and tweaks) that make big positive impacts.   

That was definitely a balanced roster. Old and young and it had role players as well. 

Sadly, there is one possibility that no one wants to think about. It is POSSIBLE that in this era where players have lots of NTCs and get to express their wishes more and control their own destinies, we have been bad for so long it truly is the case that basically NO ONE wants to come to Buffalo and so he offers and tries but there's just no options and no takers. So the only guys he can get are over paying a guy like Clifton over 3 times what he was making (an offer too good to refuse so to speak) or an old guy nobody wants any more who decides to take a fat payday for his retirement fund. 

It's not something anyone here wants to believe is a reality, but it just might be. 

[ska-T Chitown]

20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That was definitely a balanced roster. Old and young and it had role players as well. 

Sadly, there is one possibility that no one wants to think about. It is POSSIBLE that in this era where players have lots of NTCs and get to express their wishes more and control their own destinies, we have been bad for so long it truly is the case that basically NO ONE wants to come to Buffalo and so he offers and tries but there's just no options and no takers. So the only guys he can get are over paying a guy like Clifton over 3 times what he was making (an offer too good to refuse so to speak) or an old guy nobody wants any more who decides to take a fat payday for his retirement fund. 

It's not something anyone here wants to believe is a reality, but it just might be. 

Why you gotta hit me right in the feels, man? But yeah - great point and I guess I would not be shocked if it were true.

[SabreFinn]

30 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Yes.   Think about the Drury/Briere teams.  They were made up of Sabre developed prospect PLUS the right veterans OBTAINED IN TRADE or FA  - Drury, Briere, Teppo, Grier, were all added to home grown prospects.  We had an emerging NHL goalie, and lots of roll players.  

Now, for Adams to do something like this means he has to trade part of the current group, plus some prospects and picks.   He has not shown inclination or ability to make a hockey trade (not talking trade deadline dumps and tweaks) that make big positive impacts.   

I agree. And to connect to PerreaultForevers post also, if we want to trade for something good, the packade we send in return has to be great...

[Marvin]

20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That was definitely a balanced roster. Old and young and it had role players as well. 

Sadly, there is one possibility that no one wants to think about. It is POSSIBLE that in this era where players have lots of NTCs and get to express their wishes more and control their own destinies, we have been bad for so long it truly is the case that basically NO ONE wants to come to Buffalo and so he offers and tries but there's just no options and no takers. So the only guys he can get are over paying a guy like Clifton over 3 times what he was making (an offer too good to refuse so to speak) or an old guy nobody wants any more who decides to take a fat payday for his retirement fund. 

It's not something anyone here wants to believe is a reality, but it just might be. 

Sad, but true.  But even then, you can overpay a little bit for guys like Greenway to fill out the bottom 6 or overpay a bit in a trade.  If the stable of prospects is that all-fired good, IMHO, we should overpay a bit to get the guys we need.

[seer775]

Here are some UFA defensemen to target this offseason, sorted by points. I sincerely hope KA has one of these guys in mind to replace EJ.

[Norcal]

4 minutes ago, seer775 said:

Here are some UFA defensemen to target this offseason, sorted by points. I sincerely hope KA has one of these guys in mind to replace EJ.

He doesn't 

[Weave]

40 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That was definitely a balanced roster. Old and young and it had role players as well. 

Sadly, there is one possibility that no one wants to think about. It is POSSIBLE that in this era where players have lots of NTCs and get to express their wishes more and control their own destinies, we have been bad for so long it truly is the case that basically NO ONE wants to come to Buffalo and so he offers and tries but there's just no options and no takers. So the only guys he can get are over paying a guy like Clifton over 3 times what he was making (an offer too good to refuse so to speak) or an old guy nobody wants any more who decides to take a fat payday for his retirement fund. 

It's not something anyone here wants to believe is a reality, but it just might be. 

I think it is the only non-competent GM related reason that has plausibility.

My opinion is, this is 90% of what is affecting the Sabres.  And it is going to be a rough road to overcome.

[ska-T Chitown]

6 minutes ago, Weave said:

I think it is the only non-competent GM related reason that has plausibility.

My opinion is, this is 90% of what is affecting the Sabres.  And it is going to be a rough road to overcome.

But, but, but ... Taylor Hall chose us! Right? RIGHT??!!

[Marvin]

Just thinking: who are the coaches who have interviewed for the Buffalo job?  I want to see if there is any hope for improvement based on that list; i.e., has anyone competent besides Lindy Ruff interviewed here in the past decade plus?