Blow the Whole Team up in the Off-Season - It's the Only Reasonable Thing to do

[Brawndo]

FWIW from 32 Thoughts 

 

8. Buffalo Sabres: GM Kevyn Adams has told teams he wouldn’t be afraid of a larger hockey deal — but you’ve got to convince him it makes sense right now. Otherwise, that idea will get moved to the offseason. He’s rebuffed requests to discuss Alex Tuch (my guess is Bruins and Rangers). Like many others, the Sabres are preparing to move their UFAs, working on Erik Johnson for a while and I’ve wondered if Kyle Okposo makes any sense for Manhattan. File this under “stay tuned for larger discussions”. 

[JohnC]

On 3/1/2024 at 3:09 PM, Pimlach said:

Sure.   I can understand not waiving UPL.  My beef is that the 3-way competition lasted too long and it didn't have to.  

UPL got sick and was out for some time. Then when he returned it took more time to for him to get in a groove. That was a reason why that 3-way competition lasted as long as it did. If UPL didn't get sick and played at the level he is playing now (stunningly well), that competition would have been determined sooner.  The illness factor extended the goalie selection process. 

[Pimlach]

21 minutes ago, JohnC said:

UPL got sick and was out for some time. Then when he returned it took more time to for him to get in a groove. That was a reason why that 3-way competition lasted as long as it did. If UPL didn't get sick and played at the level he is playing now (stunningly well), that competition would have been determined sooner.  The illness factor extended the goalie selection process. 

Uh.   Don’t think so.  That was a week or two. 

They wanted to give Levi the throne.  They started him 4 straight games while carrying 3 goalies.  Dumb things like that made the goalie competition last for months. 

[DarthEbriate]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Uh.   Don’t think so.  That was a week or two. 

They wanted to give Levi the throne.  They started him 4 straight games while carrying 3 goalies.  Dumb things like that made the goalie competition last for months. 

^This. UPL may have been unable to go for a bit at the beginning of the season, but he was clearly goalie #3 in the front office/coaches' minds at the end of last season and into the beginning of this one.

[JohnC]

Just now, Pimlach said:

Uh.   Don’t think so.  That was a week or two. 

They wanted to give Levi the throne.  They started him 4 straight games while carrying 3 goalies.  Dumb things like that made the goalie competition last for months. 

Two to three weeks went by before UPL got back to his current level. Even if it was two weeks, it took additional time for him to solidify his position as the primary goalie. I don't disagree with you that this regime was leaning toward Levi in the competition. That shouldn't be surprising considering how Levi played at the end of the year. He struggled more than expected. There was no question that there was a sorting out process. Was it avoidable or strung out too long? Not necessarily. In the end, there was a 3-way competition with UPL rising to the top. This is what happens when you have a young roster with spots and roles not completely decided on when going into camp. 

Assuming that UPL continues with his current standard of play, I'm confident that there will be less vying for roles next season. My expectation (hope) is that UPL grabs the mantel, and Levi becomes the backup. And it won't be a shock to me if Levi challenges UPL for the primary goalie position. In retrospect, this season has been good for UPL from a developmental standpoint, and it also has benefited Levi's development by getting a lot of playing time in Rochester. It's a tough up and down process that has a lot of inevitable frustration built in.

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

Two to three weeks went by before UPL got back to his current level. Even if it was two weeks, it took additional time for him to solidify his position as the primary goalie. I don't disagree with you that this regime was leaning toward Levi in the competition. That shouldn't be surprising considering how Levi played at the end of the year. He struggled more than expected. There was no question that there was a sorting out process. Was it avoidable or strung out too long? Not necessarily. In the end, there was a 3-way competition with UPL rising to the top. This is what happens when you have a young roster with spots and roles not completely decided on when going into camp. 

Assuming that UPL continues with his current standard of play, I'm confident that there will be less vying for roles next season. My expectation (hope) is that UPL grabs the mantel, and Levi becomes the backup. And it won't be a shock to me if Levi challenges UPL for the primary goalie position. In retrospect, this season has been good for UPL from a developmental standpoint, and it also has benefited Levi's development by getting a lot of playing time in Rochester. It's a tough up and down process that has a lot of inevitable frustration built in.

Leaning toward Levi as the starter was a big problem, and it was actually very stupid, and it was surprising that an NHL goalie was not brought in.  Adams is doing  the exact opposite of what Yzerman said about developing prospects - someone who actually did it and won in Tampa, and Tampa is still winning with his core.  He said you DO NOT give your prospects NHL jobs until the earn them by beating out an NHL player.  We have not had an NHL #1 goalie since Ulmark left.  This season, with no veteran brought in, either UPL or Levi was going to get the job by default, but Adams kept Comnie around just because he is a nice guy I guess, all that did was clog things up and continue the regular season tryout fiasco.  

You have to be a fool to think that Levi was going from NCAA to NHL #1 goalie after just 7 professional games, and to publicly proclaim you are "all in" on making the playoffs make him a bigger fool.  That is exactly what Adams is, and that is just one reason the season was ruined before it started.  Adams is LUCKY that UPL emerged because UPL's play in both the AHL and NHL  was inconsistent and often mediocre - and that level of play can revisit at any time.  

Want another sobering thought?   UPL has been the BEST goalie in the NHL since January, and his team has fallen even further behind in the playoff race.  That should tell you how many more holes and issues there are with this team - The roster and the coaching staff both need fix'in.  

You can defend Adams all you want, but he is the main reason this team is once again on the outside looking in.  

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Leaning toward Levi as the starter was a big problem, and it was actually very stupid, and it was surprising that an NHL goalie was not brought in.  Adams is doing  the exact opposite of what Yzerman said about developing prospects - someone who actually did it and won in Tampa, and Tampa is still winning with his core.  He said you DO NOT give your prospects NHL jobs until the earn them by beating out an NHL player.  We have not had an NHL #1 goalie since Ulmark left.  This season, with no veteran brought in, either UPL or Levi was going to get the job by default, but Adams kept Comnie around just because he is a nice guy I guess, all that did was clog things up and continue the regular season tryout fiasco.  

You have to be a fool to think that Levi was going from NCAA to NHL #1 goalie after just 7 professional games, and to publicly proclaim you are "all in" on making the playoffs make him a bigger fool.  That is exactly what Adams is, and that is just one reason the season was ruined before it started.  Adams is LUCKY that UPL emerged because UPL's play in both the AHL and NHL  was inconsistent and often mediocre - and that level of play can revisit at any time.  

Want another sobering thought?   UPL has been the BEST goalie in the NHL since January, and his team has fallen even further behind in the playoff race.  That should tell you how many more holes and issues there are with this team - The roster and the coaching staff both need fix'in.  

You can defend Adams all you want, but he is the main reason this team is once again on the outside looking in.  

I'm not defending Adams at all. What I am doing is pointing out that the course of action that he did take was supportable. His strategy of staying the course within his mostly rebuilding from within appeared to be working based on the previous season where the team made a leap from 75 points in the 2021-2022 season to 91 points in the 2022-2023 season. I'm sure that he didn't count on our all of top gun goal scorers to have lesser years this season. And I'm sure that he didn't assume that our PP that was in high gear at the end of last season would falter at the level he did. 

As you point, he miscalculated by not bringing in a few more experienced players to augment/support the youth movement as Yzerman did. The Greenway, Clifton and Eric Johnson pickups were good pickups to bolster the roster. In hindsight, he should have brought in 2 or 3 more mature players to round out the roster. 

Edited March 6 by JohnC

[Pimlach]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not defending Adams at all. What I am doing is pointing out that the course of action that he did take was supportable. His strategy of staying the course within his mostly rebuilding from within appeared to be working based on the previous season where the team made a leap from 75 points in the 2021-2022 season to 91 points in the 2022-2023 season. I'm sure that he didn't count on our all of top gun goal scorers to have lesser years this season. And I'm sure that he didn't assume that our PP that was in high gear at the end of last season would falter at the level he did. 

As you point, he miscalculated by not bringing in a few more experienced players to augment/support the youth movement as Yzerman did. The Greenway, Clifton and Eric Johnson pickups were good pickups to bolster the roster. In hindsight, he should have brought in a 2 or 3 more mature players to round out the roster. 

... and the silver lining is the play UPL.  I hope we have a real deal #1. 

Levi is playing a lot of games in Rochester, trying to help them get to the playoffs.  Exactly what should be happening.

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

... and the silver lining is the play UPL.  I hope we have a real deal #1. 

Levi is playing a lot of games in Rochester, trying to help them get to the playoffs.  Exactly what should be happening.

UPL is a fascinating story. When making assessments about goalies you have to be humble about predicting how they will play from one year to another. One year the player is a king, and the next year the player becomes a peasant. It's a difficult and peculiar position to assess. How many people on this site wanted to dispatch UPL for another veteran retread. The same premature assessment was made by many on Mitts. Even a player such as Bryson who was scorned by many can turn out to be a useful player. When rebuilding a roster with young players sometimes judicious patience is a good strategy. 

 

[French Collection]

57 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

... and the silver lining is the play UPL.  I hope we have a real deal #1. 

Levi is playing a lot of games in Rochester, trying to help them get to the playoffs.  Exactly what should be happening.

I, like many was disappointed with UPL’s development.
I had to remind myself of his MVP performance in the OHL, I watched a few of those games live. He was the #1 goalie on a gold medal winning World Junior team, a tournament I watch religiously. He was a second round pick.

This is how someone with that background should perform. It’s just never linear with development, especially with goalies.

I had almost given hope he could get to his current level, my next hope is that he can sustain it. Only the top goalies seem to bring it every year.

My heart was set on Levi but a strong tandem would be a real asset.

[Flashsabre]

5 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I, like many was disappointed with UPL’s development.
I had to remind myself of his MVP performance in the OHL, I watched a few of those games live. He was the #1 goalie on a gold medal winning World Junior team, a tournament I watch religiously. He was a second round pick.

This is how someone with that background should perform. It’s just never linear with development, especially with goalies.

I had almost given hope he could get to his current level, my next hope is that he can sustain it. Only the top goalies seem to bring it every year.

My heart was set on Levi but a strong tandem would be a real asset.

I think as fans we don’t realize how difficult and how long it takes to fully recover from double hip surgery as a goalie.

I think maturing as a goalie and getting fully healthy is what we are currently seeing. He is the goalie at the NHL level that we saw in the OHL and at the WJCs.

[Broken Ankles]

6 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Leaning toward Levi as the starter was a big problem, and it was actually very stupid, and it was surprising that an NHL goalie was not brought in.  Adams is doing  the exact opposite of what Yzerman said about developing prospects - someone who actually did it and won in Tampa, and Tampa is still winning with his core.  He said you DO NOT give your prospects NHL jobs until the earn them by beating out an NHL player.  We have not had an NHL #1 goalie since Ulmark left.  This season, with no veteran brought in, either UPL or Levi was going to get the job by default, but Adams kept Comnie around just because he is a nice guy I guess, all that did was clog things up and continue the regular season tryout fiasco.  

You have to be a fool to think that Levi was going from NCAA to NHL #1 goalie after just 7 professional games, and to publicly proclaim you are "all in" on making the playoffs make him a bigger fool.  That is exactly what Adams is, and that is just one reason the season was ruined before it started.  Adams is LUCKY that UPL emerged because UPL's play in both the AHL and NHL  was inconsistent and often mediocre - and that level of play can revisit at any time.  

Want another sobering thought?   UPL has been the BEST goalie in the NHL since January, and his team has fallen even further behind in the playoff race.  That should tell you how many more holes and issues there are with this team - The roster and the coaching staff both need fix'in.  

You can defend Adams all you want, but he is the main reason this team is once again on the outside looking in.  

[PerreaultForever]

14 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Uh.   Don’t think so.  That was a week or two. 

They wanted to give Levi the throne.  They started him 4 straight games while carrying 3 goalies.  Dumb things like that made the goalie competition last for months. 

Correct. The "plan" was clearly to give the net to Levi. They kept 3 because they were afraid if they waived UPL he would get taken (Tampa?) . It was a dumb plan, but I wonder if they guaranteed Levi's agent a so many games shot as a precondition to signing. If so, that makes him slightly less stupid, but also costs the team the season. 

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Correct. The "plan" was clearly to give the net to Levi. They kept 3 because they were afraid if they waived UPL he would get taken (Tampa?) . It was a dumb plan, but I wonder if they guaranteed Levi's agent a so many games shot as a precondition to signing. If so, that makes him slightly less stupid, but also costs the team the season. 

One of the TSN or ESPN stated this earlier this year that Levi was to be given a legitimate chance to be the team's starter as per the agent agreement.

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

One of the TSN or ESPN stated this earlier this year that Levi was to be given a legitimate chance to be the team's starter as per the agent agreement.

"legitimate chance" would seem to be a fairly openly defined term and it's sad if they had to do this. Open competition is one thing, no problem guaranteeing that, but it should always be best performer makes the cut. 

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

"legitimate chance" would seem to be a fairly openly defined term and it's sad if they had to do this. Open competition is one thing, no problem guaranteeing that, but it should always be best performer makes the cut. 

They mentioned that they (Levi's agent) made it rather clear they didn't want Buffalo signing any vet to keep Levi out of the NHL. While not exactly something I want to hear it makes sense that Adams wouldn't want yet another college goalie to jump ship. This talk was around when we signed Tokarski and Cooley to NHL contracts because they said Adams was toeing a fine line. Frankly it strikes me as Levi's agent more than Levi himself being behind all of it. Levi seems to honestly love competing and breaking expectations and seeing as there was no issues when we sent him to Rochester eventually; I'd imagine Levi himself put his foot down or the agent finally backed off.  The great fun of hockey politics....

[French Collection]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

They mentioned that they (Levi's agent) made it rather clear they didn't want Buffalo signing any vet to keep Levi out of the NHL. While not exactly something I want to hear it makes sense that Adams wouldn't want yet another college goalie to jump ship. This talk was around when we signed Tokarski and Cooley to NHL contracts because they said Adams was toeing a fine line. Frankly it strikes me as Levi's agent more than Levi himself being behind all of it. Levi seems to honestly love competing and breaking expectations and seeing as there was no issues when we sent him to Rochester eventually; I'd imagine Levi himself put his foot down or the agent finally backed off.  The great fun of hockey politics....

I find it difficult to see Levi pushing the NHL or nothing issue. Every kid dreams of that but he has taken his time at every level to improve.

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, French Collection said:

I find it difficult to see Levi pushing the NHL or nothing issue. Every kid dreams of that but he has taken his time at every level to improve.

That's why I mentioned his agent being the one pushing it