GDT: Sabres @ Kings - Wed Jan 24, 2024, 10:30 pm ET MSG, ESPN+ Bally Sports West 📺 WGR 📻

[Mustache of God]

2 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

That’s a fun stat, but Bryson was a -1 and only played ten minutes last night.  

You are ignoring all the intangibles.

[Norcal]

1-0 2:55 into the game lol this team never learns

JJ was slick wit it 

Ok, Kings right back in the lead. How deflating. 

[LETSTUCHINGO]

7 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

That’s a fun stat, but Bryson was a -1 and only played ten minutes last night.  

Bryson is God awful!

[Norcal]

3 goals in the first ten minutes but Meatballs sees no reason to pull the goalie. 

Amazing this team came back to win this game because the start was very unimpressive tbh. 

Edited January 25 by Norcal

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I didn't watch the whole game last night, saw some of it, rewatched the highlights.  I like to take a look at the goals allowed and see what went wrong.

Today, I'm not spending much time on it, it is the SAME THING over and over. The forwards do not know how to position themself in the defensive end.  The ENTIRE team will look at and follow the puck instead of being where they should be.  They do not hold the box in the PK. It is the same thing, game after game after game after game that allows goals scored against.

1st goal allowed: Mitts, Greenway, and I have no idea who the other forward was.  Kopitar comes in on the near wing, no one picks him up. He scores.  Look at the screenshot below.  4 Sabres players in the D-zone. No one at all on the entire near side of the ice except Kopitar.  ALL FOUR sabres players looking at the puck, no one with any awareness to the WIDE OPEN half of the ice Kopitar is on. Easy pass to him, easy shot, easy goal.D-men, including Bryson, were  OK, Forwards, its the SAME THING. (see Screenshot below)

2nd goal allowed: Both Tuch and Greenway chase the puck near the blue line. I guess BOTH of them could justify going after the puck from where they were, but they have to know that BOTH of them can't. They both chase the puck take themselves both out of the play, Puck comes to Kempe with NO ONE around him where he has all day to skate in, set up the shot, look for the opening, easy goal.  The Sabres D-men were tied up with other Kings players down low, again I don't blame them. It was the Forward chasing the puck AGAIN that caused this.

3rd goal:  I say this game after game on the PK. When the Sabres hold the box on the PK, they do well.  The other team controls the puck sure, but they simply pass it around the perimiter and waste time and then eventually take a shot the goalie clearly sees and stops.  WHEN the Sabres allow a goal it is almost always then they start chasing and the PK box collapses (lately a lot with Cozens on the ice). So guess what happened here? Well, this time it was Greenway and Cozens. They almost kill the entire penalty, but right at the end, the guy has the puck on the blue line on the near side (Greenway's side).  He is drifting toward the far side (Cozens side).  Greenway starts to follow him to the other side, leaving the near boards WIDE open. I put this more on Greenway, but Cozens could have stepped up a bit so Greenway had no where to go. Anyway, once Greenway is out of position, the puck gets moved to the area he vacated, the entire Sabres team has no clue what to do, collapses down low into a mass of humanity and the goal is scored.

 

See below picture. Every single player is looking at the puck. Does anyone know there is an entire other side of the ice? Anyone care to even glance over and look to not hang their goalie out to dry? guess not.

I think the Sabres (in many situations) are coached to come hard at the puck carrier and in layers.

The system is designed to create odd-man advantages for the defence, where the primary defender is taking away time and space and the layers are in a position to block, or at least disrupt passes, support puck battles, and pounce on forced turnovers.

By design it will leave people open, on the principle that the open guy is a great distance away from the puck carrier, with a lot of obstacles between them. It's betting those obstacles, combined with the pressure, should mean the puck rarely gets to the open guy.

Your photo above both illustrates the principle and where it can break down.

Mittelstadt, Greenway and Dahlin are doing what they are supposed to do positionally. Where it breaks down is the primary defender, Bryson, has allowed the puck carrier far too much time and space. Without time and space, the puck carrier would be angled into the corner, forced to reverse up the boards, or attempting a rushed pass that the Sabres are in position to pick off.

Without the pressure, the puck carrier is talented enough to pick his spot between Mitts and Dahlin and put it on the tape for Kopitar.

Really it's not much different than defence in football: get in the QB's face and he'll miss his throws. Give him time and he'll pick you apart.

Edited January 25 by dudacek

[PASabreFan]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think the Sabres (in many situations) are coached to come hard at the puck carrier and in layers.

The system is designed to create odd-man advantages for the defence, where the primary defender is taking away time and space and the layers are in a position to block, or at least disrupt passes, support puck battles, and pounce on forced turnovers.

By design it will leave people open, on the principle that the open guy is a great distance away from the puck carrier, with a lot of obstacles between them. It's betting those obstacles, combined with the pressure, should mean the puck rarely gets to the open guy.

Your photo above both illustrates the principle and where it can break down.

Mittelstadt, Greenway and Dahlin are doing what they are supposed to do positionally. Where it breaks down is the primary defender, Bryson, has allowed the puck carrier far too much time and space. Without time and space, the puck carrier would be angled into the corner, forced to reverse up the boards, or attempting a rushed pass that the Sabres are in position to pick off.

Without the pressure, the puck carrier is talented enough to pick his spot between Mitts and Dahlin and put it on the tape for Kopitar.

Really it's not much different than defence in football: get in the QB's face and he'll miss his throws. Give him time and he'll pick you apart.

Milt told Rob about the layers. Now do we have to drop layers into our posts for 2.5 days before forgetting about them.

Humans are indeed the most hackable species.

Layers? That coaching staff must really know what it's doing.

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Milt told Rob about the layers. Now do we have to drop layers into our posts for 2.5 days before forgetting about them.

Humans are indeed the most hackable species.

Layers? That coaching staff must really know what it's doing.

I don't study other teams enough to know if there are teams (Carolina comes to mind?) that execute this system well, or if it's just a bad system period.

I mean you do see it working for the Sabres multiple times a game, you just see it failing a lot as well.

Buffalo seems to skate fast enough to make it work, so are they making bad decisions? Slow to recognize situations? Not invested enough to trust it, or each other?

Either the system is flawed, a bad match for the players, or the message isn't getting through.

Each of those things seem to point back at the coaching staff.

(I did like the rush offence last night, looked like last year. Again, why has that disappeared?)

Edited January 25 by dudacek

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

There isn't much to figure out. Play hard and play a simpler and more basic game. Instead of trying to dazzle on offense by hanging on to the puck and dangling, just shoot the freaking puck. The Sabres have to be one of the worst team in the leagues in positioning players in front of the net to obstruct the goalie when we shoot. Our two best players in that tough area are Benson and Greenway.  It's not about outsmarting anyone. Just play tougher and harder throughout. 

Ummm, thanks, but I was thinking that they have a few days to figure out the way to San Jose ...

😉

[WhenWillItEnd66]

I just watched the condensed version and i was not impressed. Ok, we scored 5, but 3 of them were due to a horrible goalie. Just not excited about this win.... 

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, Believer said:

NHL Recap shows Thompson as the #1 Star??… Can’t be right… JJ had to be the First Star.

Weird

I'm sure that should be JJP.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Ctaeth said:

Didn't get to watch the game, but I did see the highlights.  Why did Tage get first star of the game?

Administrative error.  I'm quite sure first star should have been JJP.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Mustache of God said:

You are ignoring all the intangibles.

Casey and Jacob playing Fortnight on an iPad at the end of the bench.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Ctaeth said:

Didn't get to watch the game, but I did see the highlights.  Why did Tage get first star of the game?

Good question. A saw about half the game before a zonked out. Tage was playing determined hockey, he was creating chances , but it sure seems like whoever picked the stars mistook 77 and 72.  

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I think the Sabres (in many situations) are coached to come hard at the puck carrier and in layers.

The system is designed to create odd-man advantages for the defence, where the primary defender is taking away time and space and the layers are in a position to block, or at least disrupt passes, support puck battles, and pounce on forced turnovers.

By design it will leave people open, on the principle that the open guy is a great distance away from the puck carrier, with a lot of obstacles between them. It's betting those obstacles, combined with the pressure, should mean the puck rarely gets to the open guy.

Your photo above both illustrates the principle and where it can break down.

Mittelstadt, Greenway and Dahlin are doing what they are supposed to do positionally. Where it breaks down is the primary defender, Bryson, has allowed the puck carrier far too much time and space. Without time and space, the puck carrier would be angled into the corner, forced to reverse up the boards, or attempting a rushed pass that the Sabres are in position to pick off.

Without the pressure, the puck carrier is talented enough to pick his spot between Mitts and Dahlin and put it on the tape for Kopitar.

Really it's not much different than defence in football: get in the QB's face and he'll miss his throws. Give him time and he'll pick you apart.

It could be, maybe your correct.....

But the problem I see is is, the benefit of that would be to force turnovers, it rarely happens.  When you watch the Sabres goals scored, very few of them start with 'tilting' your forwards toward the puck holder in your own side of the ice, causing a turnover and then taking it the other way.  Plus, the screenshot I showed is just a symptom/example where you can see everyone doing it. Over the past year, many, MANY goals the sabres allowed were caused by one forward making that mistake.  Some of the guys play the right 'zone' and one chases the puck....and the goal is allowed...with no one set up to take advantage of a turnover if presented.

Its almost like in football terms, your best defense in most situations is a zone defense, yet the Sabres fowards in their own end prefer to play man-to-man...but they don't even line up on the right guy, they just cover whoever they want. Or worse, the coach calls a zone coverage, and one guy just decides....I want to play man to man so I'm going to chase someone and leave my zone open.  It just happens so much with this team/forward group.

52 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don't study other teams enough to know if there are teams (Carolina comes to mind?) that execute this system well, or if it's just a bad system period.

I mean you do see it working for the Sabres multiple times a game, you just see it failing a lot as well.

Buffalo seems to skate fast enough to make it work, so are they making bad decisions? Slow to recognize situations? Not invested enough to trust it, or each other?

Either the system is flawed, a bad match for the players, or the message isn't getting through.

Each of those things seem to point back at the coaching staff.

(I did like the rush offence last night, looked like last year. Again, why has that disappeared?)

I think the system is flawed, but your point about them making bad decisions seems like it happens also. 

Whether the system is flawed, or the players aren't good enough to play it...either way it seems a change should be made.

[Hawerchuk]

25 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Administrative error.  I'm quite sure first star should have been JJP.

From Hamilton WGR: "The media in Los Angeles was so impressed with Tage Thompson and how he dominated every time he had the puck, they made him the first star of the game despite having no points. Thompson played 19:37 and had four shots on goal and 13 shot attempts."

 

Tage did play a physical game and had a lot of shots (mostly all misses), but its crazy JJP didn't get the first star.

Lastly, the one shot Tage had on the PowerPlay shattered Cam Talbot's goal stick on the top handle and it went flying to the back boards. It was quite a sight to see. Of course Buffalo went 0-4 on the PP☹️

[dudacek]

41 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

It could be, maybe your correct.....

But the problem I see is is, the benefit of that would be to force turnovers, it rarely happens.  When you watch the Sabres goals scored, very few of them start with 'tilting' your forwards toward the puck holder in your own side of the ice, causing a turnover and then taking it the other way.  Plus, the screenshot I showed is just a symptom/example where you can see everyone doing it. Over the past year, many, MANY goals the sabres allowed were caused by one forward making that mistake.  Some of the guys play the right 'zone' and one chases the puck....and the goal is allowed...with no one set up to take advantage of a turnover if presented.

Its almost like in football terms, your best defense in most situations is a zone defense, yet the Sabres fowards in their own end prefer to play man-to-man...but they don't even line up on the right guy, they just cover whoever they want. Or worse, the coach calls a zone coverage, and one guy just decides....I want to play man to man so I'm going to chase someone and leave my zone open.  It just happens so much with this team/forward group.

I think the system is flawed, but your point about them making bad decisions seems like it happens also. 

Whether the system is flawed, or the players aren't good enough to play it...either way it seems a change should be made.

I agree with where you're going with the bold. Like most systems, it breaks down if just one guy is freelancing.

So the question for me becomes who is freelancing? Why? And why is it taking so long to be corrected?

In the bigger picture though, I still believe the offence has been a bigger issue than the defence all season.

I'm not disagreeing with your habit of focusing on specific goals against, but I have to say that should be done with a caveat of "of course there were breakdowns" on the goals against. You'll see similar breakdowns on the highlights of most goals against, and with most teams.

The Sabres by design play high event hockey. If they are playing their game, you expect breakdowns at both ends of the ice. They're built to win 4-3, not 2-1. They'll take the Kopitar goal if the tradeoff is 2 of those Peterka goals. Most games they just haven't been getting enough of the latter.

You might disagree with that choice, but that's a different discussion.

I think they're not only failing, they're failing on their own terms.

Thanks for bringing some good discussion to the board.

Edited January 25 by dudacek

[mjd1001]

46 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I agree with where you're going with the bold. Like most systems, it breaks down if just one guy is freelancing.

So the question for me becomes who is freelancing? Why? And why is it taking so long to be corrected?

In the bigger picture though, I still believe the offence has been a bigger issue than the defence all season.

I'm not disagreeing with your habit of focusing on specific goals against, but I have to say that should be done with a caveat of "of course there were breakdowns" on the goals against. You'll see similar breakdowns on the highlights of most goals against, and with most teams.

The Sabres by design play high event hockey. If they are playing their game, you expect breakdowns at both ends of the ice. They're built to win 4-3, not 2-1. They'll take the Kopitar goal if the tradeoff is 2 of those Peterka goals. Most games they just haven't been getting enough of the latter.

You might disagree with that choice, but that's a different discussion.

I think they're not only failing, they're failing on their own terms.

Thanks for bringing some good discussion to the board.

For the second point you make, because mistakes of course are made where your goalie makes a save, but by focusing on goals allowed, we can look at where mistakes are likely made and see the result of them.  Its just more efficient than spending 3 hours breaking down film is the best way to put it.

As far as the first point who is freelancing?  2 parts to that question.  Cozens is the #1 offender. There are times where the 5 man unit is in their own zone and everything is going pretty well, and then for ZERO reason he takes off and chases a puck into the corner, the puck comes back out to where he was supposed to be and there is your goal against. The best way I can describe it is he is like a Dog chasing a squirell, or a cat chasing string...he just can't control himself.  Others make that mistake too (Okposo surprisingly a lot, and as much as everyone loves Benson, he can be a liability in his own zone this way) but by far Cozens has done it dozens of times in the past year leading to goals against.  Who doesn't do it much? Normally Greenway. He had a bad game last night but he is pretty good as maintaining is D-zone coverage usually. Also Thompson and Girgensons. They both often look like they aren't doing a lot in the defensive zone but are holding position where they should be.

A side not, while Girgensons is someone many think is close to useless or want to get rid of, he is one of the players on this team that USUALLY plays positionally well in his own end and is probabaly the 2nd best forechecker on this team next to Tuch. 

The 2nd part of that isn't 'freelancing', but just that when coming back into the defensive zone, the forwards seem to frequently all go to the side of the ice the puck is on. If the puck is on the far side, both the far side winger and the center are on the far boards, and the 'near side' winger even is near center ice, leaving the entire other side of the ice open (see the Kopitar goal last night for a great example). This happens a LOT! when watching the game I notice this even when goals aren't scored against.  In some games numerous prime scoring chances against are allow simply because the forwards ALL go to the side of the ice the puck is on, while someone from the other team just slips into the open side of the ice very easily.

Edited January 25 by mjd1001

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Hawerchuk said:

From Hamilton WGR: "The media in Los Angeles was so impressed with Tage Thompson and how he dominated every time he had the puck, they made him the first star of the game despite having no points. Thompson played 19:37 and had four shots on goal and 13 shot attempts."

 

Tage did play a physical game and had a lot of shots (mostly all misses), but its crazy JJP didn't get the first star.

Lastly, the one shot Tage had on the PowerPlay shattered Cam Talbot's goal stick on the top handle and it went flying to the back boards. It was quite a sight to see. Of course Buffalo went 0-4 on the PP☹️

I don't believe it. They messed up and are covering for it.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Ummm, thanks, but I was thinking that they have a few days to figure out the way to San Jose ...

😉

 

Dionne Warwick is great. I'm a big Motown fan. This team can be a heartbreaker for Sabre fans. 

 

 

Edited January 25 by JohnC

[WhenWillItEnd66]

I love the conversation, and it is nice to see, but lack of effort (Ducks game) is not a system problem. It is a coaching motivation problem. Players not doing their job (Mitts on the first goal) would be a system/freelance/effort issue. 

The current Sabres system is flawed. Perimeter hockey in the offensive zone is not going to produce many goals. Same goes for the PP. It is a grossly flawed offensive system which everyone sees but the Sabres coaches. Thats a huge coaching Issue. 

A team that cannot handle any kind of defensive structure or forecheck is also a Coaching/System issue. In some cases you can say player issue but most of the players on this team are built skill wise similarly. They are mostly not physical, nor do they like to finish checks and be "Hard to play against". 

Until these are addressed and corrected this team will go nowhere but to the laundromat. Wash rinse, repeat, in this case , lose, no playoffs

On another note..... Zemgus needs to go. His body just cannot handle the style of hockey that is in his head. Would say the same for Muel, but he is here for another gazillion years.

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, WhenWillItEnd66 said:

I love the conversation, and it is nice to see, but lack of effort (Ducks game) is not a system problem. It is a coaching motivation problem. Players not doing their job (Mitts on the first goal) would be a system/freelance/effort issue. 

The current Sabres system is flawed. Perimeter hockey in the offensive zone is not going to produce many goals. Same goes for the PP. It is a grossly flawed offensive system which everyone sees but the Sabres coaches. Thats a huge coaching Issue. 

A team that cannot handle any kind of defensive structure or forecheck is also a Coaching/System issue. In some cases you can say player issue but most of the players on this team are built skill wise similarly. They are mostly not physical, nor do they like to finish checks and be "Hard to play against". 

Until these are addressed and corrected this team will go nowhere but to the laundromat. Wash rinse, repeat, in this case , lose, no playoffs

Maybe it is a coaching issue when you break it all down (coaches are responsible for the players actions) but to me it is more of a player issue for this reason...the breakdowns in the D-zone....Cozens, Okposo, and Benson probably account for almost half of them from what I can see on replays of goals allowed. While, when I watch the games myself, Girgensons, USUALLY Greenway and Mitts, and Thompson do not have anywhere near the same kind of breakdowns, hardly any that I see.

How are some players just not able to hold their position on the ice, seeming breaking away and doing their 'own thing' causing goals against? While others hardly ever do that?

The Cozens thing has me baffled.  His ice time was down a bit this year so maybe the coaches are starting to realize he has problems this way, but at the same point, they keep on putting him out there on the PK and keep him at center.  The 'can't stop chasing the puck issues to the boards" might actually be a STRENGTH of his game if his defensive assignment was that of a winger, but there must be something else coaching-wise going on under the surface that they know that I (we) don't.

Edited January 25 by mjd1001

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

For the second point you make, because mistakes of course are made where your goalie makes a save, but by focusing on goals allowed, we can look at where mistakes are likely made and see the result of them.  Its just more efficient than spending 3 hours breaking down film is the best way to put it.

As far as the first point who is freelancing?  2 parts to that question.  Cozens is the #1 offender. There are times where the 5 man unit is in their own zone and everything is going pretty well, and then for ZERO reason he takes off and chases a puck into the corner, the puck comes back out to where he was supposed to be and there is your goal against. The best way I can describe it is he is like a Dog chasing a squirell, or a cat chasing string...he just can't control himself.  Others make that mistake too (Okposo surprisingly a lot, and as much as everyone loves Benson, he can be a liability in his own zone this way) but by far Cozens has done it dozens of times in the past year leading to goals against.  Who doesn't do it much? Normally Greenway. He had a bad game last night but he is pretty good as maintaining is D-zone coverage usually. Also Thompson and Girgensons. They both often look like they aren't doing a lot in the defensive zone but are holding position where they should be.

A side not, while Girgensons is someone many think is close to useless or want to get rid of, he is one of the players on this team that USUALLY plays positionally well in his own end and is probabaly the 2nd best forechecker on this team next to Tuch. 

The 2nd part of that isn't 'freelancing', but just that when coming back into the defensive zone, the forwards seem to frequently all go to the side of the ice the puck is on. If the puck is on the far side, both the far side winger and the center are on the far boards, and the 'near side' winger even is near center ice, leaving the entire other side of the ice open (see the Kopitar goal last night for a great example). This happens a LOT! when watching the game I notice this even when goals aren't scored against.  In some games numerous prime scoring chances against are allow simply because the forwards ALL go to the side of the ice the puck is on, while someone from the other team just slips into the open side of the ice very easily.

Yep. That's what I was getting at in my initial post.

This is not a "mistake" within Granato's system. This is how it's designed.

[Demoted]

They are very good at winning 1 in a row

[inkman]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Weird

I'm sure that should be JJP.

 

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Administrative error.  I'm quite sure first star should have been JJP.

 

1 hour ago, Hawerchuk said:

From Hamilton WGR: "The media in Los Angeles was so impressed with Tage Thompson and how he dominated every time he had the puck, they made him the first star of the game despite having no points. Thompson played 19:37 and had four shots on goal and 13 shot attempts."

 

Tage did play a physical game and had a lot of shots (mostly all misses), but its crazy JJP didn't get the first star.

Lastly, the one shot Tage had on the PowerPlay shattered Cam Talbot's goal stick on the top handle and it went flying to the back boards. It was quite a sight to see. Of course Buffalo went 0-4 on the PP☹️

First star worthy play ?  Pretty freaking awesome.  
 

 

Edited January 25 by inkman

[PASabreFan]

I like that first star choice. Anyone can look at the scoresheet and select the player with the most points. Tage was fierce.