Is There A Case For Being Patient? "Patience" is not a dirty word

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, SabresVet said:

You're missing the point.

Easy, hoss.

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, SabresVet said:

while every team can't have a a MacKinnon leader on-ice, they should have something like him and his style off it when things get bad and/or players aren't giving 100%.  

The M.O. in Buffalo seems to avoid disrupting the status quo.  That ain't leadership...it's poor leadership and a lack of urgency.    

I've agreed with and echoed this sentiment upthread. Yin and Yang. I posted somewhere: There's too much homogeneity with this squad -- lotsa good vibe bros who like to dangle and play a skilled game.

To this point specifically, the roster (the status quo) is the way it is by design. Adams' design principally, I presume. And it's fundamentally flawed.

[LTS]

15 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

From what I’ve read, he’s a hyper competitive as.shole much like Drury was. And he can be similarly brutal on teammates. It appears to work for him.

Ahh got it.  I hadn't read anything about how he interacts in that regard. I have no doubt how competitive he is.. he's a monster player. I'd take him in a heartbeat, potentially over a few other big names.  I am a huge fan of how he plays the game.

[SabresVet]

52 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Easy, hoss.

OK Hondo. 

[That Aud Smell]

15 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

OK Hondo. 

[#freejame]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Easy, hoss.

@Hoss doesn’t exist

[PASabreFan]

Where's WildCard? And Ogre?

Oh. My. God.

[That Aud Smell]

38 minutes ago, #freejame said:

@Hoss doesn’t exist

IIRC, bro got so pressed.

[#freejame]

6 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

IIRC, bro got so pressed.

One of many who we’ve lost along the way. Not as good as a storm off as some, but the effort was there. 
 

On further review it looks like Buffnill sealed the deal. He’s gotta have a high body count by now, but I’ve come around. 

Edited January 4 by #freejame

[Thorny]

I don’t even fully believe things are as bad they clearly appear until @dudacekconfirms it. For all I know he’d stroll back on here and say we are a fixed power play away from being a perennial playoff team. I’m not sure if his lack of posting of late is an indication that’s it’s undeservedly negative around here, or even scarier, that his absence is a result of it being deservedly negative. 

[Crusader1969]

I am definitely impatient for Adams to do something 

I don't need to blow it up.  Actually I think that when it comes to the roster, most of the heavy lifting has been done 

Things have regressed, there is no way a team with this much firepower should be one of the worst teams on the PP.  

fire Ellis or bring in an additional assistant coach who has experience at the the NHL level 

Adams has 4 A grade prospects in Östlund, Rosen, Kulich and Savoie.   With the age and contract situation of the current top 9, there isn't enough openings for all 4.   One, if not two, of these prospects need to used as trade bait to get another legit top 4 dman. 
 

maybe , the current leadership has asked Adams to give them a chance to right the ship? I have no other explanation except the Adams isnt confident enough to make a big move that isn't forced on him 

Edited January 4 by Crusader1969

[dudacek]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:08 AM, Thorny said:

I don’t even fully believe things are as bad they clearly appear until @dudacekconfirms it. For all I know he’d stroll back on here and say we are a fixed power play away from being a perennial playoff team. I’m not sure if his lack of posting of late is an indication that’s it’s undeservedly negative around here, or even scarier, that his absence is a result of it being deservedly negative. 

It’s because this place has become like hanging out with a bunch of recent divorcees complaining about their ex-wives.

And before PA jumps on me for telling people how to be fans, people have every right to say what they want to say and plenty of reasons to be disappointed. Just like I have every right to choose not to engage.

I come here for good, provocative writing, fresh, insightful hockey takes and sharing in our mutual love of the Sabres. You’ll probably see more of me when this team starts inspiring more of that.

[dudacek]

As far the state of the franchise goes, I think Sabrespacers are missing the mark when they continue to hone in on inconsequential, peripheral issues like 3 goalies, 11/7, Kyle Okposo’s presence, and whether they should play Johnson or Johnson.

I, and I think many of you, felt this team was promising because it was loaded with explosive firepower. The most pertinent, significant issue this season is why the heck is this team 22nd in offence? This team is built to score. Sure it needed to get better defensively in order to contend. Sure it hasn’t done that. But that isn’t why they aren’t good. They aren’t good because they can’t seem to outscore their mistakes any more. What has happened to this team’s identity?

The central question surrounding the team is not whether Adams has failed to accumulate the proper supporting cast, it’s about whether he has constructed a legitimate core. Because it’s the core that is letting us down.

I wonder if (hope that?) this team came into the season on a misguided mission to change the way it plays, in the process stopped doing what it did well, and when the failures, the injuries, and the pressures started to mount, it got stuck on a painful treadmill of second-guessing itself.

I also wonder if what we saw from Tuch/Thompson/Skinner/Cozens/Dahlin/Power/Samuelsson last year was not the promise of what is to come. Rather, it was some lightning in a bottle, never to be repeated.

Edited January 6 by dudacek

[dudacek]

Patience?

You have to wonder about the coaching. Their lack of focus, connectivity and consistency is often the mark of an inexperienced team. It’s also the mark of a poorly-coached team.

I guess if you’re Adams and you believe Donnie still has the ear of the room, the leadership skills to get these players back on the rails, the technical chops to course-correct his system, and the balls to revamp his staff you can be patient.

I guess if you’re Pegula and you that believe Tuch, Thompson, Power, Dahlin, Cozens, Samuelsson and Levi are a legitimate contending core and worthy of the investments Adams has made in them, that he will eventually leverage his considerable depth of young talent into the proper supporting cast, and that his draft-and-develop policy is the correct path despite the bumps on the way, you can be patient.

Especially if you remind yourself that you wanted an attacking team and that Benson, Peterka, Quinn, Krebs, Johnson, Power, Levi and Luukkonen — more than a 3rd of your roster — has played less than 200 NHL games.

Really though, it’s about the core. If you like that group of players, you should be patient, because if they turn things around, the team will inevitably turn with them.

But if you don’t believe in the people and principles Adams believes in — the players and the culture he has chosen to be the pillars of his rebuild — then any patience is a waste of time.

Which is both sad and scary.

Sad because I actually liked this group in a way I never did the previous few. Scary, because it inevitably means another push of the reset button and three more years just to get back to where we were in September.

Edited January 6 by dudacek

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

As far the state of the franchise goes, I think Sabrespacers are missing the mark when they continue to hone in on inconsequential, peripheral issues like 3 goalies, 11/7, Kyle Okposo’s presence, and whether they should play Johnson or Johnson.

I, and I think many of you, felt this team was promising because it was loaded with explosive firepower. The most pertinent, significant issue this season is why the heck is this team 22nd in offence? This team is built to score. Sure it needed to get better defensively in order to contend. Sure it hasn’t done that. But that isn’t why they aren’t good. They aren’t good because they can’t seem to outscore their mistakes any more. What has happened to this team’s identity?

The central question surrounding the team is not whether Adams has failed to accumulate the proper supporting cast, it’s about whether he has constructed a legitimate core. Because it’s the core that is letting us down.

I wonder if (hope that?) this team came into the season on a misguided mission to change the way it plays, in the process stopped doing what it did well, and when the failures, the injuries, and the pressures started to mount, it got stuck on a painful treadmill of second-guessing itself.

I also wonder if what we saw from Tuch/Thompson/Skinner/Cozens/Dahlin/Power/Samuelsson last year was not the promise of what is to come. Rather, it was some lightning in a bottle, never to be repeated.

Unfortunately, the core doesn’t operate as an isolated variable relative to the supporting cast. In my estimation, id hazard a guess that we have a differing opinion on how much the core not living up to expectations is a result of them not being being properly supported, allowing them to do what they do best. Hockey has so much built in randomness, I honestly feel it’s often about timing, things just lining up and clicking for a stretch - it’s nearly alchemical. Even one small piece can change the chemistry and re slot the hierarchy, with the amount of supporting additions we needed, weaknesses on the roster, im not comfortable focusing in on the core specifically. I think it’s more about the timing of the overall collection of talent and it’s lacking and that’s on the GM 

[Thorny]

For me it’s not a “if the core can’t do it without proper support, they aren’t good enough anyways and we shouldn’t have hope” situation. I think that’s being mis-framed. Sometimes you just need a more well-rounded, competently built team. That view of the core you mentioned is more tailored to a scenario where you are merely considering the prospects of *winning a championship* (this is what I meant by mis-framed): the mindset this franchise seemingly can’t get away from. Yes, if the core isn’t good enough, no supporting pieces are going to vault the team to championship contender 

but for some reason the goal can never just be to scratch and claw with this franchise. It needs to just be about making the playoffs! There difference on that front can be as little as a point, we saw that last year. The difference between making it and not making it can absolutely be the situation we put our core in re: the maneuvering we do on the chess board, the supporting pieces we complement the core with.

This season needs to be about THIS season. This season shouldn’t merely be viewed as a stepping stone to the “ultimate goal.” It doesn’t matter right now if the core is good enough to be a contender: just get them in the playoffs - just be mediocre. When the line is “mediocre”, yes, *every* roster spot is under the microscope. After 13 years, it absolutely should not be any other way 

Edited January 6 by Thorny

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

It’s because this place has become like hanging out with a bunch of recent divorcees complaining about their ex-wives.

And before PA jumps on me for telling people how to be fans, people have every right to say what they want to say and plenty of reasons to be disappointed. Just like I have every right to choose not to engage.

I come here for good, provocative writing, fresh, insightful hockey takes and sharing in our mutual love of the Sabres. You’ll probably see more of me when this team starts inspiring more of that.

Or I force it out of you by badgering you with quote tweets 

please stay 

Edited January 6 by Thorny

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Patience?

You have to wonder about the coaching. Their lack of focus, connectivity and consistency is often the mark of an inexperienced team. It’s also the mark of a poorly-coached team.

I guess if you’re Adams and you believe Donnie still has the ear of the room, the leadership skills to get these players back on the rails, the technical chops to course-correct his system, and the balls to revamp his staff you can be patient.

I guess if you’re Pegula and you that believe Tuch, Thompson, Power, Dahlin, Cozens, Samuelsson and Levi are a legitimate contending core and worthy of the investments Adams has made in them, that he will eventually leverage his considerable depth of young talent into the proper supporting cast, and that his draft-and-develop policy is the correct path despite the bumps on the way, you can be patient.

Especially if you remind yourself that you wanted an attacking team and that Benson, Peterka, Quinn, Krebs, Johnson, Power, Levi and Luukkonen — more than a 3rd of your roster — has played less than 200 NHL games.

Really though, it’s about the core. If you like that group of players, you should be patient, because if they turn things around, the team will inevitably turn with them.

But if you don’t believe in the people and principles Adams believes in — the players and the culture he has chosen to be the pillars of his rebuild — then any patience is a waste of time.

Which is both sad and scary.

Sad because I actually liked this group in a way I never did the previous few. Scary, because it inevitably means another push of the reset button and three more years just to get back to where we were in September.

Right now, it's very much on inexperience and poor coaching.  Tack on key players playing through injuries and it's a very rough combination.  Personally expect that Granato does have the leadership to keep the team on the rails because if the team had the mindset of the fans they'd be the Sharks.  There hasn't been any stretch where some momentum has built; they've never gotten on a roll and that is painfully frustrating.  It's frustrating for those of us just watching it, it has to be maddening to be living it.  But, except for when Levi was down in the minors, they've never been on a long losing streak.  One 3 game streak (which followed a stretch of 7 points in 5 games) and less than a handful of 2 game losing streaks.  Keeping the truly horrible losing streaks at bay, IMHO, is a sign that Granato hasn't lost the room.

But the PP being horrible for pretty much the entire season and their continued inability to win games at home both shout out that the coaching simply isn't good enough.  Yeah, it was nice seeing them change up the PP; personally not convinced that wasn't more an accident than a plan and also not convinced that an actually reasonable PK unit would have all 4 defenders continue to focus on Thompson regardless of where he went which is what opened up the low cross ice passes.  Would absolutely take 2 or 3 more games with 2 PP goals before teams realize the Sabres have adjusted, but not expecting 6 weeks of it again like we saw last year.

Don't know what to do about the home game woes.  Expect that could come down to simply getting them out of the mindset of trying to put on a show at home.  The transition game kills them at home; both too many turnovers leading to odd-man rushes and getting caught too deep with nobody covering leading to odd-man rushes.  Both of which, if you aren't looking for the highlight reel play, maybe you don't go for the overly fancy play that blows up in your face.  (And that's a significant oversimplification of what they're doing; but without writing a novella ...)

Still like Granato.  (Not convinced he's the right man for the job at this moment in time; but also expect he's here at least into next year so there is that.)  But want to see him make at minimum 2 changes to his assistants like yesterday.

But, expect this roster is what we have through next season.  Kulich will be on Mittelstadt's line bumping Greenway to the 4th line with Krebs and likely some vet brought in as a FA.  And maybe one D besides E Johnson isn't here as the mythical push/search for a Chychrun to round out the top 4 continues; but expect most if not all the other 6 back next year.  And expect them to return Levi and UPL between the pipes.

If they don't make at least a push towards the playoffs, maybe they make bigger changes.  But not expecting them.  And that does increase the anxiety levels because it makes missing the playoffs this year a real possibility and people will have an entire off-season of expecting a team that wasn't good enough to return en masse with the expectation that simply being a year closer to their prime won't be good enough for the jump necessary.

Can't blame you for not wanting to be here right now.  This place is dark.  But, it is a new year, maybe Ellis got a PP Coaching for Dummies book for Christmas and has been studying it religiously and maybe the Levi we saw on Thursday is the one we get the rest of the season, and maybe they'll stay healthy for a spell, and ...  (####, hope springs eternal.  Somebody on the outside today will be on the inside come April; why not these schmucks.)

[Night Train]

The 20 year plan..That way, they keep getting paid while putting the public on hold. 

 

[JohnC]

26 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Right now, it's very much on inexperience and poor coaching.  Tack on key players playing through injuries and it's a very rough combination.  Personally expect that Granato does have the leadership to keep the team on the rails because if the team had the mindset of the fans they'd be the Sharks.  There hasn't been any stretch where some momentum has built; they've never gotten on a roll and that is painfully frustrating.  It's frustrating for those of us just watching it, it has to be maddening to be living it.  But, except for when Levi was down in the minors, they've never been on a long losing streak.  One 3 game streak (which followed a stretch of 7 points in 5 games) and less than a handful of 2 game losing streaks.  Keeping the truly horrible losing streaks at bay, IMHO, is a sign that Granato hasn't lost the room.

But the PP being horrible for pretty much the entire season and their continued inability to win games at home both shout out that the coaching simply isn't good enough.  Yeah, it was nice seeing them change up the PP; personally not convinced that wasn't more an accident than a plan and also not convinced that an actually reasonable PK unit would have all 4 defenders continue to focus on Thompson regardless of where he went which is what opened up the low cross ice passes.  Would absolutely take 2 or 3 more games with 2 PP goals before teams realize the Sabres have adjusted, but not expecting 6 weeks of it again like we saw last year.

Don't know what to do about the home game woes.  Expect that could come down to simply getting them out of the mindset of trying to put on a show at home.  The transition game kills them at home; both too many turnovers leading to odd-man rushes and getting caught too deep with nobody covering leading to odd-man rushes.  Both of which, if you aren't looking for the highlight reel play, maybe you don't go for the overly fancy play that blows up in your face.  (And that's a significant oversimplification of what they're doing; but without writing a novella ...)

Still like Granato.  (Not convinced he's the right man for the job at this moment in time; but also expect he's here at least into next year so there is that.)  But want to see him make at minimum 2 changes to his assistants like yesterday.

But, expect this roster is what we have through next season.  Kulich will be on Mittelstadt's line bumping Greenway to the 4th line with Krebs and likely some vet brought in as a FA.  And maybe one D besides E Johnson isn't here as the mythical push/search for a Chychrun to round out the top 4 continues; but expect most if not all the other 6 back next year.  And expect them to return Levi and UPL between the pipes.

If they don't make at least a push towards the playoffs, maybe they make bigger changes.  But not expecting them.  And that does increase the anxiety levels because it makes missing the playoffs this year a real possibility and people will have an entire off-season of expecting a team that wasn't good enough to return en masse with the expectation that simply being a year closer to their prime won't be good enough for the jump necessary.

Can't blame you for not wanting to be here right now.  This place is dark.  But, it is a new year, maybe Ellis got a PP Coaching for Dummies book for Christmas and has been studying it religiously and maybe the Levi we saw on Thursday is the one we get the rest of the season, and maybe they'll stay healthy for a spell, and ...  (####, hope springs eternal.  Somebody on the outside today will be on the inside come April; why not these schmucks.)

This place is getting darker than usual. But that shouldn't be surprising because the expectations for this season were high. The mediocre results (so far) have ramped up the frustrations of the posters, many long-term participants. So, I'm not bothered as much as others by the negativity and even vitriol. I understand where it is coming from. 

@dudacek brought up the issue of the core and whether it is an established core that needs to be remixed. My belief is that it is a good enough. He sagely points that too much focus is on the periphery when the real critical issue revolves around the coaching staff and whether the core is adequate enough. I think our core is good enough but have more doubts about the coaching staff. I'm not a Granato critic. On the contrary, I believe his strengths is working with young players knowing how to handle them individually to bring them along. With respect to his staff, that is another issue. 

What has both red me a lot this season is its uneven play. It too often rises against the better teams and then deflates against the lesser teams. So far, this team has not had any sustained success. There has been only one time that this team has won two games in a row. That's ridiculous when considering that the norm for all teams to have at least one mini good run by this point in the season. On the positive side, compared to last year. it hasn't had any sustained losing streaks like last year where it had three separate non-winning streaks of 8 games.  

I get mocked by a few for being a company man who toes the line. I may be naive but I still believe that this season is salvageable. However, the margin of error is getting narrow, and time is running out to get on track. If we can get a high enough level of goaltending, I still believe that we can break our ignominious non-playoff streak. 

 

[#freejame]

36 minutes ago, JohnC said:

This place is getting darker than usual. But that shouldn't be surprising because the expectations for this season were high.

 

Making the playoffs in a league where 50% of the teams make it isn’t high expectations. The bold is Kevyn Adams’ mindset. I hope none of our players think expecting the playoffs is a high expectation. That’s such a loser mentality. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Making the playoffs in a league where 50% of the teams make it isn’t high expectations. The bold is Kevyn Adams’ mindset. I hope none of our players think expecting the playoffs is a high expectation. That’s such a loser mentality. 

It's not a loser mentality for fans of this particular franchise to want to make the playoffs after not doing so for nearly a generation. When you are franchise flirting with the bottom for a long time, you look for improvements in stages. This team is not a Stanley Cup contender. That would be a delusion. However, in my mind this team is a playoff caliber team.  Being realistic is not something one should be ashamed for. You take one step forward and continue to look up. At least, that's how I see it.  

[Pimlach]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:59 AM, PASabreFan said:

Where's WildCard? And Ogre?

Oh. My. God.

You are waxing nostalgic for the good old days when the no playoff streak was 10 years or less. 

[mjd1001]

A 4 game winning streak (3 more wins) puts them at 50% of available points for the season.

.500 points right now would make them the 25th best team in the league.

.500 points would make them them 13th in the conference.

.500 points at the end of that 4 game winning streak would put them at 42 points.  

The last wild card spot right now is Philly, with .58.  

Once Buffalo wins the next 3 to get to a 4 game streak....58 points would be 48-49 points, they would be at 42. So if they can WIN the next 3...to make it a 4 game win streak, they would still likley be 6-7 points out of a spot (with 5 teams to jump over)

[Pimlach]

11 hours ago, dudacek said:

It’s because this place has become like hanging out with a bunch of recent divorcees complaining about their ex-wives.

And before PA jumps on me for telling people how to be fans, people have every right to say what they want to say and plenty of reasons to be disappointed. Just like I have every right to choose not to engage.

I come here for good, provocative writing, fresh, insightful hockey takes and sharing in our mutual love of the Sabres. You’ll probably see more of me when this team starts inspiring more of that.

Then I suppose I should post more.