Ranking: Why we suck this year

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

No doubt defensive lapses seem higher this year than last for Rasmus. Offensively the talent is never in question.  But that Sabre Metrix tweet should be shamed for using a plus/minus stat.  Not irrelevant but I trust my own observation that Power specifically has been fortunate that most of his turnovers or listless play in his own zone have not been converted. For me,  The regression of Power ranks higher than the regression of Dahlin.  

Again, those sort of stats are misleading. Who is he on the ice against? Who else is on the ice? It all matters. As a quick example, you're playing Boston, Dahlin is sent out against Pasternak's line. Clifton gets sent out against Jacob Lauko's. End of the game Clifton ends up with better stats because Lauko's line didn't score and Pasternak's did so that makes Clifton the better D man statistically speaking. Like that. 

[thewookie1]

I do know through a secondary source at least one of the reasons Lafontaine left.

During that season the team took a trip to Nashville the afternoon prior to the game the next day (regular 8PM start) Kim had decided that she wanted the team to stop by the new music studio they owned in Nashville to hang out with the people they had deals with and the workers there that night; so the day prior to the game. Pat and Kim got into a rather heated argument over it because Pat outright refused to let the team go. After some back and forth, Kim pulled the ownership card and overruled Pat. 

Frankly this story actually has me agreeing with Kim for this specific occasion. 

Another situation mentioned was Tim Murray working around Pat straight to the Pegulas when he wanted to go scorched earth with the tank. 

 

One other interesting tidbit I learned....

Buffalo interviewed Danny Briere for a POHO position around the time Adams became GM. Both sides were interested but Briere wanted Brandon Beane/McDermott's clauses. (Beane and McDermott have non-meddling agreements in their contracts that allow them to "kick out the Pegulas" when dealing with football related activities. Effectively it lets both of them run the team while Terry and Kim had a very reduced access to the players. For example Kim couldn't take the Bills to the Nashville music studio as it would violate the agreement. It also limited Terry's influence on personnel decisions) The Pegulas hated this primarily due to it shutting them out of their own team. As such they outright refused to give Briere carte-blanche and after some back and forth he stayed in Montreal until going to Philly as AGM.

Now for my personal conjecture.

Originally Kim was going to run the business side of the Sabres and Bills and as such be able to bend the non-meddling agreement slightly so they could take advantage of Josh Allen's fame and the like. After Kim's event, Terry no longer heavily meddles with the teams but that is partially due to Adams being a man Terry trusts and doesn't feel is looking to take advantage of him. Kim's dream of a strong PSE died with that stroke/cardiac event. Now Terry has more or less dismantled the overhanging PSE structure since he just wanted to own teams and enjoy the perks of being an owner. I personally see no intention to sell the Sabres fully as if he wanted to get rid of it he wouldn't care about not having any place at the table. He may want to sell a minor portion to bank role an arena revamp but no more than that.

Edited December 29, 2023 by thewookie1

[sabresparaavida]

8 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Seems like Sabremetrix just jumped in with some additional shade on Dahlin.

 

Again, the talent is there. The urgency isn't, especially coming out of his own end.

Seems to be a product of bad puck luck for Dahlin so far this season. Dahlin has the best analytics among our defenseman, with the highest Corsi % and Fenwick % among our defenseman. When Dahlin is on the ice at even strength, the Sabres have 52.1% of the shots, and 53.8% of the expected goals.

[Believer]

@JoeSchmoe… Go back through this thread… @Mango has it right… 

[LGR4GM]

10 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Seems like Sabremetrix just jumped in with some additional shade on Dahlin.

 

Again, the talent is there. The urgency isn't, especially coming out of his own end.

Maybe just maybe we should recognize that Samuelsson isn't a top pair defender. 

 

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 hours ago, Pimlach said:

He quit.   He wasn’t banished.  Next question, why did he quit?  

 

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Officially. But did he? Exit packages along with letters of resignation and NDAs are not exactly a new thing. 

Him and Pegula did not see eye to eye that is obvious. The rest is just details.

Pat was firmly against the 'tank'.  He wanted no part of it.

[JoeSchmoe]

2 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

Seems to be a product of bad puck luck for Dahlin so far this season. Dahlin has the best analytics among our defenseman, with the highest Corsi % and Fenwick % among our defenseman. When Dahlin is on the ice at even strength, the Sabres have 52.1% of the shots, and 53.8% of the expected goals.

What are you using for your metrics? Moneypuck has Dahlin last in expected goal % among our non-trainwreck defenseman (i.e. Clifton and EJ)

 

[Big Guava]

We have allowed the most first period goals in the NHL with 48 this year and are an NHL worst -22 in goal differential after 1 period.

And the PP is terrible.

 

Hard to win when you are constantly chasing the game for the last 2 periods and you can't cash in when you have the man advantage.

[Big Guava]

40 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

What are you using for your metrics? Moneypuck has Dahlin last in expected goal % among our non-trainwreck defenseman (i.e. Clifton and EJ)

 

Not a huge statistical difference. Basically inconsequential 

[JoeSchmoe]

3 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

Not a huge statistical difference. Basically inconsequential 

I wouldn't say inconsequential... But I would say he gets the toughest matchups which keeps him lower. For what it's worth, he was tops on the team last year.

Seeing Clague near the top last year has me wondering how he's doing in Rochester? I don't remember hating him last year. Part of me wonders if he's been typecast as an AHL guy but might silently have more worth than a Clifton. We could use a guy that makes the good, safe plays, even if he's otherwise unremarkable.

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Thanks for the details which confirm what I said. He and Pegula did not see eye to eye. Patty didn't want to work for an owner who meddled. 

To the original point though, it IS the moment the franchise goes south and stays there. Patty put a voodoo hex on it maybe. 

The franchise was stale when Pegula got there.  He actually made things a bit worse with his false bravado about winning Stanley Cups.  Firing Ruff/Regier needed to happen but not without a real VP of Hockey Ops in the wings. 

The whole Patty LaFontaine thing was a disaster.  Including the bloated organization that ran the poorest executed tank in hockey history.  

I will continue to believe that Pegula got a bit lucky with the Bills. The NFL literally hands you a list of top candidates of coaching and FO execs.  If you can conduct an open and honest interview, and have the correct criteria for selection, you should find several qualified people to choose from.  That was how he first met Coach McDermott, only he listened to Russ Brandon and hired Rex Ryan instead.   

Edited December 29, 2023 by Pimlach

[French Collection]

44 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

I wouldn't say inconsequential... But I would say he gets the toughest matchups which keeps him lower. For what it's worth, he was tops on the team last year.

Seeing Clague near the top last year has me wondering how he's doing in Rochester? I don't remember hating him last year. Part of me wonders if he's been typecast as an AHL guy but might silently have more worth than a Clifton. We could use a guy that makes the good, safe plays, even if he's otherwise unremarkable.

I thought Clague was better than Bryson but Bryson is friends with the players on the big club. He’s a tweener imo.

[Mango]

12 hours ago, Pimlach said:

He quit.  They traded Rayan Miller when he was out of town.  Patty wanted to keep Miller and a few vets during the rebuild that turned full tank.  That was not agreed upon by the bloated Pegula organization.  

Terry liked the trade offer, Murray (the GM) made the trade.  A Pegula strap-hanger named Joe Batista told then coach Ted Nolan.  Teddy told Pat.   

Pat quit, he was supposed to be running hockey ops, he wanted control of a move like that. 

He has not been around since.  

I don’t think this is how it happened and I loath the Sabres version of Terry Pegula.

I think the biggest condemnation of this franchise is that both Miller and Vanek should have easily retired Sabres and both actually asked to be traded after Pegula’s second year even though Terry was very open about wanting them to stay here. They were offered extensions and they responded that they’d be open to being traded. 
 

Even the long time vets under Golisano were like “get me the fork out of here”

 

[mjd1001]

16 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Here's my ranking. It's almost like everything that could go wrong did. The only bright spots were Mittelstadt, Peterka, and Benson. Skinner gets a conditional pass as well, since his linemates appear to have packed it in.

1. Thompson's a lot worse and seems disinterested

2. Cozens is a lot worse

3. Power hasn't improved at all, especially defensively 

 

Edited your list slightly, that my version of it.  1 and 2 lead to the PP woes.

[Pimlach]

29 minutes ago, Mango said:

I don’t think this is how it happened and I loath the Sabres version of Terry Pegula.

I think the biggest condemnation of this franchise is that both Miller and Vanek should have easily retired Sabres and both actually asked to be traded after Pegula’s second year even though Terry was very open about wanting them to stay here. They were offered extensions and they responded that they’d be open to being traded. 
 

Even the long time vets under Golisano were like “get me the fork out of here”

 

It is how it happened.  The Miller trade was the last straw and Pat was not on board.  I don’t think Pat was the right guy anyway, he brought in Murray and Nolan, both uninspiring choices.  Terry had all his Pittsburgh and Pennie’s State strap-hangers mucking things up.  
 

The players under Golisano wanted out because he would not spend money.  Hence, the Briere and Drury debacle which ruined a very good team.  

Edited December 29, 2023 by Pimlach

[thewookie1]

23 minutes ago, Mango said:

I don’t think this is how it happened and I loath the Sabres version of Terry Pegula.

I think the biggest condemnation of this franchise is that both Miller and Vanek should have easily retired Sabres and both actually asked to be traded after Pegula’s second year even though Terry was very open about wanting them to stay here. They were offered extensions and they responded that they’d be open to being traded. 
 

Even the long time vets under Golisano were like “get me the fork out of here”

 

Neither asked for a trade due to the team.

Miller wanted to go to the West Coast for his wife and Vanek didn't want to stick around through a full rebuild.

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I do know through a secondary source at least one of the reasons Lafontaine left.

During that season the team took a trip to Nashville the afternoon prior to the game the next day (regular 8PM start) Kim had decided that she wanted the team to stop by the new music studio they owned in Nashville to hang out with the people they had deals with and the workers there that night; so the day prior to the game. Pat and Kim got into a rather heated argument over it because Pat outright refused to let the team go. After some back and forth, Kim pulled the ownership card and overruled Pat. 

Frankly this story actually has me agreeing with Kim for this specific occasion. 

Another situation mentioned was Tim Murray working around Pat straight to the Pegulas when he wanted to go scorched earth with the tank. 

 

One other interesting tidbit I learned....

Buffalo interviewed Danny Briere for a POHO position around the time Adams became GM. Both sides were interested but Briere wanted Brandon Beane/McDermott's clauses. (Beane and McDermott have non-meddling agreements in their contracts that allow them to "kick out the Pegulas" when dealing with football related activities. Effectively it lets both of them run the team while Terry and Kim had a very reduced access to the players. For example Kim couldn't take the Bills to the Nashville music studio as it would violate the agreement. It also limited Terry's influence on personnel decisions) The Pegulas hated this primarily due to it shutting them out of their own team. As such they outright refused to give Briere carte-blanche and after some back and forth he stayed in Montreal until going to Philly as AGM.

Now for my personal conjecture.

Originally Kim was going to run the business side of the Sabres and Bills and as such be able to bend the non-meddling agreement slightly so they could take advantage of Josh Allen's fame and the like. After Kim's event, Terry no longer heavily meddles with the teams but that is partially due to Adams being a man Terry trusts and doesn't feel is looking to take advantage of him. Kim's dream of a strong PSE died with that stroke/cardiac event. Now Terry has more or less dismantled the overhanging PSE structure since he just wanted to own teams and enjoy the perks of being an owner. I personally see no intention to sell the Sabres fully as if he wanted to get rid of it he wouldn't care about not having any place at the table. He may want to sell a minor portion to bank role an arena revamp but no more than that.

I heard about the Nashville story from a reliable source.   Pulling rank is not leadership.  It works in the Army, not in business.   

The Briere story and the “no meddling” story is new to me, it at least gives me a glimmer of hope that they are looking at qualified people.   

Terry let his unqualified wife run his teams, a huge mistake.   Soon the kids will take over.  Why not just hire good and highly respected people who worked their way up the ranks, then sit back and enjoy?   That is what Knox did. 

[PASabreFan]

9 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I heard about the Nashville story from a reliable source.   Pulling rank is not leadership.  It works in the Army, not in business.   

The Briere story and the “no meddling” story is new to me, it at least gives me a glimmer of hope that they are looking at qualified people.   

Terry let his unqualified wife run his teams, a huge mistake.   Soon the kids will take over.  Why not just hire good and highly respected people who worked their way up the ranks, then sit back and enjoy?   That is what Knox did. 

Is it true Jean and Dodo had a big fight over a Canasta game and some crust Dodo didn't cut off a salami sandwich and that's why you and Dodo sat down at one end and the Knoxes sat behind the bench?

[thewookie1]

14 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I heard about the Nashville story from a reliable source.   Pulling rank is not leadership.  It works in the Army, not in business.   

The Briere story and the “no meddling” story is new to me, it at least gives me a glimmer of hope that they are looking at qualified people.   

Terry let his unqualified wife run his teams, a huge mistake.   Soon the kids will take over.  Why not just hire good and highly respected people who worked their way up the ranks, then sit back and enjoy?   That is what Knox did. 

Oh I don't agree with her decision to pull rank but I do agree that the team should get to go to the place in Nashville. It wasn't exactly some sort of detrimental to the team sort of time sink.

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Is it true Jean and Dodo had a big fight over a Canasta game and some crust Dodo didn't cut off a salami sandwich and that's why you and Dodo sat down at one end and the Knoxes sat behind the bench?

Imagine serving Salami after a few heart attacks.   They were trying to get rid of me I think. 

[PASabreFan]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Imagine serving Salami after a few heart attacks.   They were trying to get rid of me I think. 

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Oh I don't agree with her decision to pull rank but I do agree that the team should get to go to the place in Nashville. It wasn't exactly some sort of detrimental to the team sort of time sink.

It not the same as giving your players some down time on a road trip to get out, or rest, or whatever.  

Field trips are for youth hockey kids in a travel tournament.   

[mjd1001]

41 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Terry let his unqualified wife run his teams, a huge mistake.   Soon the kids will take over.  Why not just hire good and highly respected people who worked their way up the ranks, then sit back and enjoy?   That is what Knox did. 

Its hard for most people to do that, look at this forum.  When things don't go the way we want, we all come up with ideas of the moves we would make, some of them pretty drastic.  Until many/most owners see proof they are making it worse, they are going to want to 'fix their own toy that they paid for'.

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Its hard for most people to do that, look at this forum.  When things don't go the way we want, we all come up with ideas of the moves we would make, some of them pretty drastic.  Until many/most owners see proof they are making it worse, they are going to want to 'fix their own toy that they paid for'.

How many more years before he sees that he made it worse?  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

31 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That photo looks legit Punch.  Is it from your personal archives?