Sabres Lines 11/6/23

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Having an identity since Granato and Adams took over is not a Sabre problem in the slightest.

They want 3 lines of high-skill pace-pushing forwards and mobile defencemen who close on attackers quickly and flip the ice effectively. They want their team to play the game faster than you do and be skilled enough to capitalize on the breakdowns their pace causes. They actively seek out players who can play that way.

Playing to their identity has been a problem. When the Sabres are moving their feet, they’re good, when they stop skating, they aren’t.

This.  So much this.  Though the Sabres can also get into an "overskill" game as well when playing lesser opponents where they look for the beautiful highlight reel goal rather than just sending the puck to the net when they have a good chance and working to gain the rebound should there be one.  The 1st half of the 2nd period of the Moe-ray-all game is the definitive example of this.

The Bills are pretty well defined too.  The D will give up a long drive to start the game but then tighten up significantly.  They will be very difficult to score on from the Red Zone.  The O runs through Josh Allen almost exclusively (he's been a part of IIRC 17 of their last 18 TDs) and as he goes so goes the rest of the offense.  They move the ball very well, but get drives stalled from either TOs or penalties.  When the O doesn't shoot itself in the foot, it is deadly.  

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

I hope he does come back gun shy. Your top centers shouldn’t be getting into fights with other teams top pugilists. 
The notion that getting into a fight the final minutes of an embarrassing loss has any benefit at all is laughable.

The concept that teams still have to employ “fighters” to protect their top players is laughable.

The notion that the Sabres wouldn’t have been better served with Cozens in the lineup against Carolina is incomprehensible.

Cozens basically said as much, which was refreshing to hear 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

The Fight seems like a big deal to me.  Cozens looks like he got hit in the face with a baseball bat.  He will be more susceptible to concussions and could shorten his career, significantly.  

I would say “could be” susceptible, not “will be”.  

I would think if he plays this weekend the damage is cosmetic and no concussion issue.  The tantrum he had afterward was not the response of a concussed person.  
 

We don’t know yet, but I hope I’m right. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Pimlach

[MISabresFan]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Having an identity since Granato and Adams took over is not a Sabre problem in the slightest.

They want 3 lines of high-skill pace-pushing forwards and mobile defencemen who close on attackers quickly and flip the ice effectively. They want their team to play the game faster than you do and be skilled enough to capitalize on the breakdowns their pace causes. They actively seek out players who can play that way.

Playing to their identity has been a problem. When the Sabres are moving their feet, they’re good, when they stop skating, they aren’t.

Then the question remains, why are Okposo, VO, Greenway (who they traded for) ,and Girgensons still on the team - high skill?  

[Weave]

24 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The tantrum he had afterward was not the response of a concussed person.  

This isn’t necessarily accurate.  Sometimes symptoms are delayed.  I’ve seen it personally.

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

When the Sabres are moving their feet, they’re good, when they stop skating, they aren’t.

This has been true for as long as I can remember.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, MISabresFan said:

Then the question remains, why are Okposo, VO, Greenway (who they traded for) ,and Girgensons still on the team - high skill?  

it's about overall team identity, not having 12 Daniel Brieres or JJ Peterkas.

Greenway and Girgensons aren't high-skill, but they are capable of playing with pace and they provide complementary, necessary skills.

I said 3 scoring lines and Greenway has shown he can fit in well with more gifted players on one of them.

Okposo is slowing but he gets it and was effective last year on the one non-scoring line.

And Olofsson has fallen off the roster because he doesn't fit the team identity.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by dudacek

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

it's about overall team identity,

…

And Olofsson has fallen off the roster because he doesn't fit the team identity.

 

I think the reason Olofsson has fallen so far out of favor is because Granato is trying to install a system that Olofsson just isn’t well suited for.  He’s been productive, if limited, when the team wasn’t so fast break in style.  I wouldn’t be surprised if he got back to his past levels of production in a system that was more deliberate.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Weave said:

I think the reason Olofsson has fallen so far out of favor is because Granato is trying to install a system that Olofsson just isn’t well suited for.  He’s been productive, if limited, when the team wasn’t so fast break in style.  I wouldn’t be surprised if he got back to his past levels of production in a system that was more deliberate.

I'd be shocked if he did unless force fed ice time. League knows his game now, they know he's a 1 trick pony. 

[Doohickie]

he doesn't fit the team identity.  =  Granato is trying to install a system that Olofsson just isn’t well suited for.

These are essentially the same thing, innit?

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

he doesn't fit the team identity.  =  Granato is trying to install a system that Olofsson just isn’t well suited for.

These are essentially the same thing, innit?

Pretty much.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Not sure it was a disservice, he potted 31 last year.  His  ability to adapt like that might become a strength some day. 
 

The lines, especially the middle 6, will evolve for awhile.  Still a young group.  

We have a different view of how to structure a team but that's okay. 

I don't see how this constant evolving will get us to the playoffs but it is what it is. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

I hope he does come back gun shy. Your top centers shouldn’t be getting into fights with other teams top pugilists. 
The notion that getting into a fight the final minutes of an embarrassing loss has any benefit at all is laughable.

The concept that teams still have to employ “fighters” to protect their top players is laughable.

The notion that the Sabres wouldn’t have been better served with Cozens in the lineup against Carolina is incomprehensible.

You like a laugh I see. 

But is it? If it is, why did so many teams add that to their roster. Why did a top team like Tampa spend so much on Jeannot? I guess they enjoy laughing at the teams below them that don't make the playoffs. 

Now what really is laughable is the notion that Hathaway is a "top pugilist". I'd agree with you if he took on DesLauriers (a guy we discarded and yet there he is, still wrecking havoc around the league) but Hathaway is a mid level fighter at best. If you can't stand up to him, you have ZERO chance come playoff time. ZERO. 

Imagine what the Sabres might be like at this point if they actually valued toughness, even a little, and still had guys like DesLauriers or Foligno on the roster. Maybe then Cozens would have  been in the line up. Not valuing that at all is incomprehensible.

Two laughs and one incomprehensible each. I think that makes us even. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by PerreaultForever

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

You when Granato keeps sending the kids out there after they make mistakes: Players need to be accountable and Granato needs to coach to win, not to develop.

You when he shuffles lines that aren’t working and rides players that are: They need to be more patient and put players in an advantageous position to succeed.

Never said the second sentence. 

You putting words in my mouth. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Having an identity since Granato and Adams took over is not a Sabre problem in the slightest.

They want 3 lines of high-skill pace-pushing forwards and mobile defencemen who close on attackers quickly and flip the ice effectively. They want their team to play the game faster than you do and be skilled enough to capitalize on the breakdowns their pace causes. They actively seek out players who can play that way.

Playing to their identity has been a problem. When the Sabres are moving their feet, they’re good, when they stop skating, they aren’t.

You're not wrong here, they are pretty clear on their defined identity, which is why I have an issue with it and keep wasting words as if they're going to read this post and change their minds lol. Hence my endless frustration. I feel like I'm watching a railway get constructed and I look ahead and see there's no bridge over the canyon and the owner is just saying will you guys look at this shiny engine we built we are just about ready to head off down the tracks. I see the trainwreck coming. 

The "identity" we are working with is the Leafs. Has been for ages. It doesn't work. It won't work. It's folly. Copy Tampa, copy Vegas, copy the Bruins, etc. DON'T copy the Laughs. 

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Never said the second sentence. 

You putting words in my mouth. 

I can’t read your characterization of Cozens another way. You implied they are building Mittelstadt (who is playing well) up and undermining Cozens (who has been Inconsistent) with their usage. I can’t read your characterization of the line juggling any other way. You said they shouldn’t be mixing up lines so much, even though they hadn’t been working.

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're not wrong here, they are pretty clear on their defined identity, which is why I have an issue with it and keep wasting words as if they're going to read this post and change their minds lol. Hence my endless frustration. I feel like I'm watching a railway get constructed and I look ahead and see there's no bridge over the canyon and the owner is just saying will you guys look at this shiny engine we built we are just about ready to head off down the tracks. I see the trainwreck coming. 

The "identity" we are working with is the Leafs. Has been for ages. It doesn't work. It won't work. It's folly. Copy Tampa, copy Vegas, copy the Bruins, etc. DON'T copy the Laughs. 

I always thought their model was more closely related to the Blackhawks and the Red Wings

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

This isn’t necessarily accurate.  Sometimes symptoms are delayed.  I’ve seen it personally.

Yeap. I’ve had multiple from my playing days. They can be all over the place 

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

You like a laugh I see. 

But is it? If it is, why did so many teams add that to their roster. Why did a top team like Tampa spend so much on Jeannot? I guess they enjoy laughing at the teams below them that don't make the playoffs. 

Now what really is laughable is the notion that Hathaway is a "top pugilist". I'd agree with you if he took on DesLauriers (a guy we discarded and yet there he is, still wrecking havoc around the league) but Hathaway is a mid level fighter at best. If you can't stand up to him, you have ZERO chance come playoff time. ZERO. 

Imagine what the Sabres might be like at this point if they actually valued toughness, even a little, and still had guys like DesLauriers or Foligno on the roster. Maybe then Cozens would have  been in the line up. Not valuing that at all is incomprehensible.

Two laughs and one incomprehensible each. I think that makes us even. 

 

 

We have different definitions of “toughness.” I’d take Hagel back over Deslauriers but whatever.

By the way, how’d that work out for Tampa?

Edited November 9, 2023 by tom webster

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I can’t read your characterization of Cozens another way. You implied they are building Mittelstadt (who is playing well) up and undermining Cozens (who has been Inconsistent) with their usage. I can’t read your characterization of the line juggling any other way. You said they shouldn’t be mixing up lines so much, even though they hadn’t been working.

I always thought their model was more closely related to the Blackhawks and the Red Wings

I think they have worked hard at developing Mitts but have to some extent taken Cozens talent for granted and have expected him to elevate his linemates. Cozens has been asked to do too much at this stage and I think his development suffers as a result. 

Blackhawks when? Detroit when? Definitely not the Yzerplan. 

Leafs went all in on speed and scoring. Top down rather than bottom up from the goal out. We can potentially do better than the Leafs because we have 2 top pick D men but the make up of the team and the system has the same flaws overall. 

[PerreaultForever]

38 minutes ago, tom webster said:

We have different definitions of “toughness.” I’d take Hagel back over Deslauriers but whatever.

By the way, how’d that work out for Tampa?

I'd take Hagel as well. I'd have signed Hathaway and then Cozens would definitely not have had to fight him. We need toughness on all levels, not just fighting. 

Tampa's in second place despite having no goalie, so not bad. 

[Flashsabre]

The day of the goon is gone. Reaves is an absolute liability on the ice for the Leafs. They can’t play him. They get scored on every time he is out there.

A guy like Lawson Cruise would be great but these 4th line plugs are no longer viable.

 

[bg17]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Cozens has been asked to do too much at this stage and I think his development suffers as a result. 

His development certainly suffered going from 38 points to 68 points in the course of two seasons. Granato is screwing him! 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️🤦

[tom webster]

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'd take Hagel as well. I'd have signed Hathaway and then Cozens would definitely not have had to fight him. We need toughness on all levels, not just fighting. 

Tampa's in second place despite having no goalie, so not bad. 

I believe toughness is an important attribute. I just don’t think fighting is necessary. 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

We have a different view of how to structure a team but that's okay. 

I don't see how this constant evolving will get us to the playoffs but it is what it is. 

I think we are aligned reasonably. 

I think what they are going through is growing pains impacting that middle 6 - Quinn on IR, Benson/Savoie under review, Oloffson ineffective, Biro gets a look, Krebs/Jost not breaking out, etc. 

I would hope this will settle out soon.  

7 hours ago, Weave said:

This isn’t necessarily accurate.  Sometimes symptoms are delayed.  I’ve seen it personally.

Ok.   I just hope he doesn't play unless he is clear of any concussion effects.  

Edited November 10, 2023 by Pimlach

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think they have worked hard at developing Mitts but have to some extent taken Cozens talent for granted and have expected him to elevate his linemates. Cozens has been asked to do too much at this stage and I think his development suffers as a result. 

Blackhawks when? Detroit when? Definitely not the Yzerplan. 

Leafs went all in on speed and scoring. Top down rather than bottom up from the goal out. We can potentially do better than the Leafs because we have 2 top pick D men but the make up of the team and the system has the same flaws overall. 

They gave Mittelstadt Olofsson and Asplund last year and then Olofsson and Jost.

Cozens got Frick and Frack.

How exactly are they jerking Cozens around but coddling Mitts?

 

The Loafs went all in on F's.  They have completely ignored D (unless you want to include Reilly who is not good in his own end, which kind of is on brand for them) and wouldn't know a good goalie if one bit them in the arse.

The Sabres have spread their $'s out on F's and D.  And they seem to be all-in on the kid that they expect will get them out of goalie purgatory.  Yes, they want to play uptempo, but they haven't built their team to be the next Loafs.  Pretty sure Adams "ideal" model is Carolina, but Detroit and Chicago - 2 teams that stayed at the top for a long time had a lot of homegrown talent the the cores of their teams are also viewed as models of how to do it right.  And, not the Yzerplan Wings, the Holland Wings that stayed good when the Cap 1st got implemented.