The three Adams threads are annoying and we can have a discussion about him in one thread.

[thewookie1]

39 minutes ago, Eleven said:

That's a nope.  Whether he's a star remains to be seen, but his ceiling is too high.

I would of told the Jets to shove Helle and smoke it if they asked for Levi +

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

In my mind he is as good as Savoie and Kulich right now which deem most untouchable, so yeah Östlund rosen and 2024 1st should get helle.   Might point is the jets will ask for Levi as part of the deal and they you want Helle locked up 7 more years.  

Hart Is at the same level as Comrie at this moment, with just more games played.    Demko and Marktstrom are gambles seeing the last season they played.

So only Saros and Helle would deserve a good prospect or  2 back if signed longterm.   I keep saying the goalie market has been a sellers market for years now and a lot of teams looking for a good fit in net.  

Well, while I agree that the Jets would probably take that package for Helle, I think there is zero possibility of the Sabres -- or anyone else -- giving up 3 high-value assets for him.  I also think there is zero possibility that the Sabres would give Helle a fat long-term contract.

I think a more realistic scenario for any Helle trade is one premium asset plus a draft pick.  In that situation, I don't think the Jets would accept Östlund, Rosen or the 2024 #1 as the premium asset.

[thewookie1]

Just now, nfreeman said:

Well, while I agree that the Jets would probably take that package for Helle, I think there is zero possibility of the Sabres -- or anyone else -- giving up 3 high-value assets for him.  I also think there is zero possibility that the Sabres would give Helle a fat long-term contract.

I think a more realistic scenario for any Helle trade is one premium asset plus a draft pick.  In that situation, I don't think the Jets would accept Östlund, Rosen or the 2024 #1 as the premium asset.

At that point we are at impasse that won't change, and Im ok with that

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, while I agree that the Jets would probably take that package for Helle, I think there is zero possibility of the Sabres -- or anyone else -- giving up 3 high-value assets for him.  I also think there is zero possibility that the Sabres would give Helle a fat long-term contract.

I think a more realistic scenario for any Helle trade is one premium asset plus a draft pick.  In that situation, I don't think the Jets would accept Östlund, Rosen or the 2024 #1 as the premium asset.

And you would not be open to paying more than one so as to make up the difference? 

[dudacek]

The Jets know what they’ll get for Helle if they trade him now.

They’re betting they’ll get more if a Levi or a Vanacek or a Husso falls on his face this fall.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The Jets know what they’ll get for Helle if they trade him now.

They’re betting they’ll get more if a Levi or a Vanacek or a Husso falls on his face this fall.

So rare in season though, no? So much has to coincide. Jets can’t be on a winning streak, etc

I bet it’s a deadline deal if anything if it lingers into season. But that’s certainly not the only option 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So rare in season though, no? So much has to coincide. Jets can’t be on a winning streak, etc

I bet it’s a deadline deal if anything if it lingers into season. But that’s certainly not the only option 

@nfreeman seems to be suggesting Hellebuyck won’t be moved unless you are including a centrepiece better than Östlund or Rosen in the deal. I think it’s kinda the opposite: he won’t be moved until someone offers a piece as good as Östlund or Rosen in the deal.

[dudacek]

Putting aside the goalie factor for a moment and consider how often a prospect as good as Matt Savoie gets moved for a rental.

For the Sabres, Hellebuyck is essentially a rental.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Putting aside the goalie factor for a moment and consider how often a prospect as good as Matt Savoie gets moved for a rental.

For the Sabres, Hellebuyck is essentially a rental.

Wish it wasn’t seen that way but definitely true 

[nfreeman]

57 minutes ago, Thorny said:

And you would not be open to paying more than one so as to make up the difference? 

I wouldn't give up Rosen or Östlund for one year of Helle, and I don't think KA would either.  I would probably give up next year's #1.

 

44 minutes ago, dudacek said:

@nfreeman seems to be suggesting Hellebuyck won’t be moved unless you are including a centrepiece better than Östlund or Rosen in the deal. I think it’s kinda the opposite: he won’t be moved until someone offers a piece as good as Östlund or Rosen in the deal.

More precisely, I think Winnipeg wouldn't trade with the Sabres unless they got one of Savoie, Kulich, Benson, JJP or Quinn.  I don't think they can sell their constituents on getting no better than the Sabres 6th-best prospect for Helle.

I would not be a-tall surprised though if they trade Helle to a different team, and the best piece coming back is no better than Östlund or Rosen.

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I wouldn't give up Rosen or Östlund for one year of Helle, and I don't think KA would either.  I would probably give up next year's #1.

 

More precisely, I think Winnipeg wouldn't trade with the Sabres unless they got one of Savoie, Kulich, Benson, JJP or Quinn.  I don't think they can sell their constituents on getting no better than the Sabres 6th-best prospect for Helle.

I would not be a-tall surprised though if they trade Helle to a different team, and the best piece coming back is no better than Östlund or Rosen.

Would give up Rosen for Hellebucyk.  That's the best piece to go into the package for him IMHO w/out an extension.  And extension or not, Levi will NOT be a part of the package for him.

[Scottysabres]

Soooo, who's opening the "What will Adam's wear on opening night" thread? :😱 😈 

[Hank]

15 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I wouldn't give up Rosen or Östlund for one year of Helle, and I don't think KA would either.  I would probably give up next year's #1.

 

More precisely, I think Winnipeg wouldn't trade with the Sabres unless they got one of Savoie, Kulich, Benson, JJP or Quinn.  I don't think they can sell their constituents on getting no better than the Sabres 6th-best prospect for Helle.

I would not be a-tall surprised though if they trade Helle to a different team, and the best piece coming back is no better than Östlund or Rosen.

I think there's alot of truth to this. 

[dudacek]

16 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

More precisely, I think Winnipeg wouldn't trade with the Sabres unless they got one of Savoie, Kulich, Benson, JJP or Quinn.  I don't think they can sell their constituents on getting no better than the Sabres 6th-best prospect for Helle.

I would not be a-tall surprised though if they trade Helle to a different team, and the best piece coming back is no better than Östlund or Rosen.

 

Ah yes, the old "we traded O'reilly and only got back their 5th-best prospect" thing.

Hard to say what false narratives take hold, but they certainly do happen.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

 

Ah yes, the old "we traded O'reilly and only got back their 5th-best prospect" thing.

Hard to say what false narratives take hold, but they certainly do happen.

Thought he was the 3rd best prospect, but we did luck out and he eventually became the best of that bunch.  (Not that it matters to your post ...)

[nfreeman]

27 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Ah yes, the old "we traded O'reilly and only got back their 5th-best prospect" thing.

Hard to say what false narratives take hold, but they certainly do happen.

Yes -- it's not rational or in the teams' best interests, but IMHO more likely to happen in a market like Winnipeg where the pressure and media/fan scrutiny is very heavy.

 

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Thought he was the 3rd best prospect, but we did luck out and he eventually became the best of that bunch.  (Not that it matters to your post ...)

I love TT, and this is likely to prove out, but I don't this story is fully written yet.  Kyrou and Thomas are both really good.

[Huckleberry]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Yes -- it's not rational or in the teams' best interests, but IMHO more likely to happen in a market like Winnipeg where the pressure and media/fan scrutiny is very heavy.

 

I love TT, and this is likely to prove out, but I don't this story is fully written yet.  Kyrou and Thomas are both really good.

Both might not be in the league anymore if the 5 names of that CHL rape come out.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Yes -- it's not rational or in the teams' best interests, but IMHO more likely to happen in a market like Winnipeg where the pressure and media/fan scrutiny is very heavy.

 

I love TT, and this is likely to prove out, but I don't this story is fully written yet.  Kyrou and Thomas are both really good.

Fans here want a rebuild. They’d be most upset sitting on the asset 

[Marvin]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Fans here want a rebuild. They’d be most upset sitting on the asset 

Are they upset with reports that Cheveldayoff is insisting on "now" players rather than a futures-oriented package?  It seems to me that the asking price is steep and one that only a team with enormous depth could pull off.  That really limits potential suitors.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Are they upset with reports that Cheveldayoff is insisting on "now" players rather than a futures-oriented package?  It seems to me that the asking price is steep and one that only a team with enormous depth could pull off.  That really limits potential suitors.

Ya there’s been quite a swell here in favour of a full rebuild in recent years. They are still on their original core in some ways: though most are now gone. Not sure it’s ever in the cards given size of market, and it’s tough to account for issues of vocal minority/wider, casual fanbase but the sentiment from Sabrespace-equivalent Jets fans is definitely REBUILD

Edited August 9, 2023 by Thorny

[Marvin]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ya there’s been quite a swell here in favour of a full rebuild in recent years. They are still on their original core in some ways: though most are now gone. Not sure it’s ever in the cards given size of market, and it’s tough to account for issues of vocal minority/wider, casual fanbase but the sentiment from Sabrespace-equivalent Jets fans is definitely REBUILD

I hope they rebuild too.  I root for a Buffalo-Winnipeg Final just to stick it in the eyes of all those players with the teams on their NTCs.

[Thorny]

Just now, Marvin said:

I hope they rebuild too.  I root for a Buffalo-Winnipeg Final just to stick it in the eyes of all those players with the teams on their NTCs.

Oh, make no mistake, I hope they never win another game

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Fans here want a rebuild. They’d be most upset sitting on the asset 

I'm sure that's right.  My point is simply that trading Helle for, say, the Penguins' 2nd-best young prospect would probably be better received in Winnipeg than trading Helle to the Sabres for Rosen -- even if Rosen is about as good as the Penguins' guy.

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I'm sure that's right.  My point is simply that trading Helle for, say, the Penguins' 2nd-best young prospect would probably be better received in Winnipeg than trading Helle to the Sabres for Rosen -- even if Rosen is about as good as the Penguins' guy.

We got Stl's 3rd best prospect in the ROR deal.  He turned out OK.  By the way Rosen is probably on a similar level with the Pens top prospect Owen Pickering.  Östlund is certainly better.

I was going to post this as a new thread, but it seems to fit here as well.  As Sabres fans, besides adding a real goalie, what would you have done differently this summer?

I would not have brought back Girgensons and Jost.  I know Z has many fans on this board, but really he is a very replaceable player.  Same Jost.  IMHO for Jost to have received a contract for us he would have needed to show and he can kill penalties and win a draw.    He does neither well.  DG tried him on PK and his PK diminished to zero over the course of the season as did his PT.  He also had a FO % of 38.  I don't understand bringing him back when someone like Pius Suter was available (and still is) who can be had for less $ and is a PK specialist and can add some offense 5 on 5.

As to Z, I think the only reason he lasted so long here was the constant turnover of GMs.  He was relatively cheap to keep and for the most part during his tenure winning wasn't the priority.  Now that winning is a priority, I think the Sabres could find a physical depth winger who might actually be able to play up if needed. To some extent, I was kind of hoping that they would let Z walk and leave the spot somewhat open for Rousek to win in camp.  A 4th line of Rousek, Suter and KO may not be a traditional checking line, but they would certainly bring energy every shift.

On defense, my only complaint is that Clifton is unproven in a top 4 role, but I think it's a reasonable risk on KA's part.  If we have to lineup Johnson and Cliftion as the 3rd pair, that is still a substantial upgrade over last year's 3rd pairing mess.

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We got Stl's 3rd best prospect in the ROR deal.  He turned out OK.  By the way Rosen is probably on a similar level with the Pens top prospect Owen Pickering.  Östlund is certainly better.

I was going to post this as a new thread, but it seems to fit here as well.  As Sabres fans, besides adding a real goalie, what would you have done differently this summer?

I would not have brought back Girgensons and Jost.  I know Z has many fans on this board, but really he is a very replaceable player.  Same Jost.  IMHO for Jost to have received a contract for us he would have needed to show and he can kill penalties and win a draw.    He does neither well.  DG tried him on PK and his PK diminished to zero over the course of the season as did his PT.  He also had a FO % of 38.  I don't understand bringing him back when someone like Pius Suter was available (and still is) who can be had for less $ and is a PK specialist and can add some offense 5 on 5.

As to Z, I think the only reason he lasted so long here was the constant turnover of GMs.  He was relatively cheap to keep and for the most part during his tenure winning wasn't the priority.  Now that winning is a priority, I think the Sabres could find a physical depth winger who might actually be able to play up if needed. To some extent, I was kind of hoping that they would let Z walk and leave the spot somewhat open for Rousek to win in camp.  A 4th line of Rousek, Suter and KO may not be a traditional checking line, but they would certainly bring energy every shift.

On defense, my only complaint is that Clifton is unproven in a top 4 role, but I think it's a reasonable risk on KA's part.  If we have to lineup Johnson and Cliftion as the 3rd pair, that is still a substantial upgrade over last year's 3rd pairing mess.

I would have more less approached things the same as KA, except I’d have brought in a more confidence-indusing backup to split time with and aid our golden goose Levi, and I’d have replaced the output being pencilled in for Quinn through an outside addition. So it’s a case of agreeing with his adherence to plan on everything but GT, and simply wishing HE adhered to his OWN likely projection for Quinn’s spot.

Arguing for something different re: Girgensons is a losing battle considering his tenure, he will be skating on this team as long as he wants to, as long as KA is GM. Same for KO: it’s their call not KAs. To your point, Jost does seem to be a case of going with the bare minimum to fill out the roster, presumably his time here gave him the edge over anyone “new”, but in the event where I replaced Quinn, the Jost thing is probably just something I’d live with 

summary - 

- I had one major contention with the plan (goalie approach) 

- and one major contention with the approach to addressing a hole that arose in said plan 

the only area of the roster I found was being approached in a questionable way was goalie: the approach at F before Quinn made sense to me, and I retain No Notes on the D. I think it looks great and the additions more than enough to account for the inevitable injury to MS, or whoever goes down 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Thorny