OT: Employment Interviews in the post covid 2020's

[Weave]

35 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

She does door dash and works 4 days for 24 hrs at a local day care.

There are only a handful of part time PA programs nation-wide, so if she continues down that path, I’m guessing you are going to know someone very soon who is up to their eyeballs in college debt.

[Scottysabres]

14 minutes ago, Weave said:

There are only a handful of part time PA programs nation-wide, so if she continues down that path, I’m guessing you are going to know someone very soon who is up to their eyeballs in college debt.

Ya, the wife and i saw the costs. It's her goal. I'll post when she graduates, it may be about the time Tage retires, hard to say really. It's on her to get it done if it's her goal is really all I got. So far, for the GER's, she's debt free.

[That Aud Smell]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

25yrs later my son attempted the same, except had a job that paid $6/hr over minimum wage.  And he had to take out loans to finish at a community college. In high school he worked a farm and banked the money.  It’s not enough anymore.

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The millennial and Z generation face a different world than Boomers and Xers did when it comes to college costs.   

Hear, hear.

The 1 percenters - or the .01 percenters or whatever - have come for everyone's scalps, everyone's margins. Higher Ed got caught up in that mix, for sure.

And they're not done yet. Shoot. With AI coming on the scene, I suppose they're just getting started.

We're just about at a stage in life where our own parents would have considered themselves nearly done with the direct support stuff. Their kids were more or less launched by now (this was about 30 years ago, give or take (grunge was a big deal at the time; so too, somehow, were the Barenaked Ladies)). Now in 2023, we're looking to put a modest addition on the home and reconfigure a few things so that our 20-somethings can use their childhood home as a way station of sorts. It's brutal out there.

Edited July 27, 2023 by That Aud Smell

[PASabreFan]

So much Fear and Loathing™!

[Weave]

30 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Ya, the wife and i saw the costs. It's her goal. I'll post when she graduates, it may be about the time Tage retires, hard to say really. It's on her to get it done if it's her goal is really all I got. So far, for the GER's, she's debt free.

If you saw the costs, then you know that “someone can get through college without loans if they try hard enough” is very far from a universal truth.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Weave

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Sounds like you don’t have kids or if you do, you don’t know many of their friends.  The millennial and Z generation face a different world than Boomers and Xers did when it comes to college costs.   

I’m 65 and put 3 millennial kids through college.  I know lots of young people (age 22 thru 40) that had to take out big loans to get a degree.   Many were not properly prepared by parents and were feed a pile of lies in high school about this very subject.  Not enough of them utilize the community colleges to get a solid, low cost start - and to help them figure it out.  I blame parents and poor high school guidance for much of the problem with student loans and the expectation that you will make a lot of money if you go to college.  

It amazes me how a student today can graduate from high school and not understand the very basics of loans and debt  - every kid should be required to take personal finance in high school.  Credit and debt, interest, loan amortization, taxes, insurance, savings plans and budgets, the use of spreadsheets and tools - make this mandatory for high school sophomores.  Next, stop lying to high school kids about pay after college.   At the end of the day your financial compensation becomes a function of your chosen field, your degree, your actual job performance, your own career planning, your ability to communicate and work with others, your geographical location, and even a bit of luck.  

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

I am a boomer.  I had to take out low interest student loans that I was able to manage because of a lot of factors.  Mostly,  I minimized what a borrowed by starting in a community college, I worked part time while going to school, and I lived a minimalist lifestyle in college (no trips to Florida, no touring Europe to find myself).  I earned a BSEE degree that started me off with good pay.  Loan payback was just part of the routine and was factored into my budget.   It was an expectation, a follow up to a commitment.  I never considered not repaying it.  The world is now different, college costs are sky high, and those days are over for a lot of reasons.  

I am not a fan of student loan forgiveness either.  At least not blanket forgiveness, but I could see some levels of forgiveness for those who work to support the underserved in healthcare and educational capacities.   In general, other tax payers should not have to pay for your decisions, your commitments, and your debt.   

I’m a proponent of more and better planning and preparation for high school students.   Better and more realistic guidance at high schools.  I’m a proponents of student loan limits (based on student progress and performance) and loans at the prime rate plus ~0.25 for the bank processing fees.  I am a proponent of better utilization of trade/vocational schools, military service, and community colleges as options after high school.  I am a proponent of state universities - many of which also make huge profits - and streamlining costs at state schools.  Private universities are making huge profits, should we look at their tax records too?  I’ll bet we can find ways to tax those endowments.   

Entrepreneurs like Musk (your example) build companies, drive innovation, create jobs, and the spin-off from their companies creates even more jobs.  Where do you think these students work?  

The student loan problem has ZERO to do with successful entrepreneurs and everything to do with people making poor decisions and a system that needs serious course correction.  Fix the root cause of the problems instead of blaming successful and unrelated entrepreneurs for doing what many of these college students dream of doing.  

Very well stated.  I've been through the college admissions (and payment!) process a couple of times in the last few years and have been left deeply cynical about the entire system.  I believe it's a fundamentally dishonest and corrupt racket designed to create comfortable, secure, high-paying jobs for a bunch of grifter administrators at the expense of the kids, far too many of whom graduate with a mountain of debt, heads filled with crap and zero ability to earn a living and repay their debt.

College costs have risen by more than triple the rate of inflation in the past generation, to the point where it's now over $80K per year to send your kid to college (and they all cost pretty much the same, other than state schools in the kid's home state).  This is insane and obviously unsustainable.  There are very few jobs available in the economy that enable college graduates to pay off this level of debt -- and that number drops to zero for many of the courses of study promoted by the colleges.

The increase in cost has been largely driven by the availability of easy credit and the myth, which has been internalized by the public, that a college degree is a ticket to a good life.  The colleges have zero incentive to hold costs down because they have no skin in the game -- it's not their problem if kids graduate and are unable to repay their loans.  This is one of the core issues, and I don't think we'll see any improvement until the colleges are required to eat, say, 50% of the losses on their graduates' loan defaults.

Bottom line is that the kids and their parents need to distrust the colleges, realize that the colleges do not have the kids' best interests at heart, shop for the best deal among the colleges in the same way they shop for a car among car dealers, and not commit to anything without a clear understanding of the situation and a fully cooked plan that is designed to enable them to make a living and repay any loans quickly following graduation.  It's a disappointing state of affairs, but it is what it is.

[Pimlach]

23 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I would say it was more that, well, taking out modest student loans worked for boomers and it was assumed it would work for millennials.  It wasn't lies so much as simply not understanding the economic changes that occurred over a generation.  Minimum wage is ***** these days and even a lot of professional wages are literally not enough to pay the bills.  College and university tuition has greatly outpaced inflation; many states have cut back in their investments in community colleges and state schools.  Financial deregulation has allowed predatory loan practices.  You really didn't have to work *that* hard to handle paying off student loans back in the day.  We struggled a bit but got over the hump.  Students these days face a nearly impossible task when trying to get an education and then trying to pay it off

"Lies" may be a strong word but unrealistic counseling and recruiting was rampant.  I am very hands on.  When my three Millennials kids were in high school (spanning 2002 -2010) I thought the school counseling was feeding them overly optimistic information on career planning, starting salaries, and college costs.  That said, I think the parents should be responsible for helping their kids with these decisions, it should not be left to the schools.    I had one in private high school and two in public high school, and they did things in a similar manner except the private school really pushed high expectations and private universities (helps their recruiting stats).  

An example for that time period for my youngest:  an average student wanting to pursue a business administration degree from an average state school.  Without me paying for it he is looking at $100,000 in loans to cover 4 years of tuition, fees, expenses, and room/board.   These numbers were not uncommon.   At 7% and a ten year term (my parameters from 1981) the payment would be $1161/month, probably about half of his take home starting salary (back then the graduate would likely make $25,000-40,000 to start, depending on a lot of factors).   Even at the high end of the starting salary, it’s good luck kid and I hope you like your job.   This example is dated but it shows why so many kids went into deferred repayment plans, or went into “interest only” repayment plans (should be illegal), and are now in a tough situation today.  They believed the counseling and recruiting and did not have proper mentoring to help them with the reality of it.  Now, run that scenario with 2 years of community college and you only borrow half the money.  What is wrong with that?   How many state universities direct students to do that?  

We agree on the predatory loan practices too.   Why student loans are not at the prime lending rate (plus a small bank processing fee) is criminal.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by Pimlach

[nfreeman]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

We agree on the predatory loan practices too.   Why student loans are not at the prime lending rate (plus a small bank processing fee) is criminal.  

Those loans are also not dischargeable in bankruptcy, unlike pretty much every other kind of loan.

It's a racket.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Very well stated.  I've been through the college admissions (and payment!) process a couple of times in the last few years and have been left deeply cynical about the entire system.  I believe it's a fundamentally dishonest and corrupt racket designed to create comfortable, secure, high-paying jobs for a bunch of grifter administrators at the expense of the kids, far too many of whom graduate with a mountain of debt, heads filled with crap and zero ability to earn a living and repay their debt.

Damn, man. We've had a Vulcan mind meld on this topic. I use the term "racket" all the funking time when I talk about Higher Ed.

[Scottysabres]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

If you saw the costs, then you know that “someone can get through college without loans if they try hard enough” is very far from a universal truth.

I don't agree.

[LTS]

6 hours ago, Weave said:

If you saw the costs, then you know that “someone can get through college without loans if they try hard enough” is very far from a universal truth.

This would be my viewpoint, if you intend on completing the 4 year degree in 4 years. My son's college costs are insane. There's no way he would be able to pay for college by himself without a loan.  There's very little chance I could pay for it without a loan.

However, if you were to go after the degree part time I think it is quite doable to get through it without a loan. I advocated for this for my son.. work and go to school part time. Get a degree in 6 years and be debt free.  I think trying to work enough hours and go to school full time and avoid a loan would be difficult.

At least this year I hope he gets a job while in school to help pay down the loans he'll have to take.

[Marvin]

When I was younger, all I ever wanted to be was a research professor in mathematics, so I have friends who are things like department chairs.  Also, both my parents were college professors and all of my siblings except my youngest brother taught in school somewhere.

Uniformly, the professors and teachers I know complain about the flood of administrators who have entered education.  The best example of this is in the Williamsville School District.  When I was young, all of the administration fit into an office space the size of a family drug store.  Now, it takes up an old middle school building that had 700 kids.

[Scottysabres]

37 minutes ago, LTS said:

This would be my viewpoint, if you intend on completing the 4 year degree in 4 years. My son's college costs are insane. There's no way he would be able to pay for college by himself without a loan.  There's very little chance I could pay for it without a loan.

However, if you were to go after the degree part time I think it is quite doable to get through it without a loan. I advocated for this for my son.. work and go to school part time. Get a degree in 6 years and be debt free.  I think trying to work enough hours and go to school full time and avoid a loan would be difficult.

At least this year I hope he gets a job while in school to help pay down the loans he'll have to take.

Yes, this is how friends, family, peers in my life have done it. 

[Scottysabres]

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

When I was younger, all I ever wanted to be was a research professor in mathematics, so I have friends who are things like department chairs.  Also, both my parents were college professors and all of my siblings except my youngest brother taught in school somewhere.

Uniformly, the professors and teachers I know complain about the flood of administrators who have entered education.  The best example of this is in the Williamsville School District.  When I was young, all of the administration fit into an office space the size of a family drug store.  Now, it takes up an old middle school building that had 700 kids.

We are going to need massive mathematicians. My daughter's and I sat and watched the UAP whistle-blower testimony before congress. 25 and 19 yrs old and they were amazed at the testimony.

The future generations are going to be embarking on many great science and mathematical journey's. I was very happy to see my kids fascinated on the subject matter, even if they weren't directly involved in the fields of study for such.

[JoeSchmoe]

As a Canadian, I can't understand why anyone in the US would go anywhere else other than a state school. The price discrepancy for a 4 year degree is massive, but the quality of education is similar. 

My friend went to Syracuse on a full sports scholarship. Her teammate who I got to know didn't get a scholarship and will be buried in student loans indefinitely. She could have went to UB for a fraction of the price and got the same degree.

[LGR4GM]

20 hours ago, nfreeman said:

The increase in cost has been largely driven by the availability of easy credit and the myth, which has been internalized by the public, that a college degree is a ticket to a good life.  The colleges have zero incentive to hold costs down because they have no skin in the game -- it's not their problem if kids graduate and are unable to repay their loans.  This is one of the core issues, and I don't think we'll see any improvement until the colleges are required to eat, say, 50% of the losses on their graduates' loan defaults.

Bottom line is that the kids and their parents need to distrust the colleges, realize that the colleges do not have the kids' best interests at heart, shop for the best deal among the colleges in the same way they shop for a car among car dealers, and not commit to anything without a clear understanding of the situation and a fully cooked plan that is designed to enable them to make a living and repay any loans quickly following graduation.  It's a disappointing state of affairs, but it is what it is.

The myth exists because the wealth gap in the world but especially the US continues to grow and accelerate. That's due to the myth that the rich invest their money creating good jobs for the ppl below them, aka trickle down economics. Corporations privatize their gains while they publicly subsidize their losses. Good jobs are gone because companies have chosen to maximize shareholders gains over paying ppl. Add into that the very easy fix of cutting loan interest or at a minimum saying once you've paid back double your original loan your done and some of this could be fixed. 

Wal-mart is a great example. Most of their workforce is on government assistance because they have decided to pay as little as possible and have the government subsidize their employees. But that's not what ppl are told, they are told companies are struggling and it's not true. They report record profits year after year because they've decided that investing in the workers is not of interest. 

And here we are. Wage growth has stagnated while the cost of living has increased. Employers yell about qualified ppl but won't pay them or train them. The only fields I know that are exceptions are trades where there's been such a labor shortage they have to pay ppl. 

Lots of interesting dynamics at play. 

[LGR4GM]

20 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Those loans are also not dischargeable in bankruptcy, unlike pretty much every other kind of loan.

It's a racket.

But you fail to realize why that is. You don't have businesses lobbying congress with millions to make their bankruptcy laws beneficial. You have a desperate group of ppl who congress by and large doesn't care about because they don't have the money to lobby them. 

[LGR4GM]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:30 PM, Scottysabres said:

My mentor got his Masters degree in Electrical Engineering and never took out a loan, paid as he went.

For context, my Mentor is my age, 52, we worked together for the first time on the Lakeside Power Plant, Levi, Utah. That was in 05. He was 2 yrs in to schooling when I met him. He finished up his Masters in 2016. Yes, 11 yrs, but we could make 100k+ a year with the hours and only work 8 to 10 months. 

I always smirk when I hear all the hoopla around student loans. I literally don't know anyone in my personal life who took out loans. Every one of them worked, banked, paid, rinse and repeat per semester. And I know many who have degrees.

That closing paragraph doesn't make you sound smart. It makes you sound ignorant. I hope you don't take that poorly but you're smugly ignoring the changes between you at 52 getting a degree 25 years ago and what the cost is today compared to the average job you can get while in college. 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by LGR4GM
Spelling

[LGR4GM]

22 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

I cannot disagree with you, merely speak on what I've seen around me. My Nephew, age 29, worked his way through Buf State, started at 18, got his 4 year degree in education at 28 yrs old. Worked various jobs paying his way.

I'm not saying things haven't changed, I am saying it is possible. So far what I've noticed is the "time line" to achieve a degree without the loans can be lengthy, but possible.

And because your nephew graduated 6 years later than he would have (unclear if this was a Bachelors but I'll assume that) he's now 6 years behind on his retirement. Something else to consider. 

[nfreeman]

52 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

But you fail to realize why that is. You don't have businesses lobbying congress with millions to make their bankruptcy laws beneficial. You have a desperate group of ppl who congress by and large doesn't care about because they don't have the money to lobby them. 

Well, I agree that the kids are defenseless in this situation -- they've been thrown into a pool with a bunch of sharks.  But I also think the sharks themselves (i.e. the colleges) are a bigger part of the problem, and the government, by guaranteeing many student loans, is effectively encouraging the kids to jump in and encouraging the sharks to gorge themselves.  And the kids and their parents need to wise up, realize that they are on the menu and stay away from the pool.

[Pimlach]

57 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The myth exists because the wealth gap in the world but especially the US continues to grow and accelerate. That's due to the myth that the rich invest their money creating good jobs for the ppl below them, aka trickle down economics. Corporations privatize their gains while they publicly subsidize their losses. Good jobs are gone because companies have chosen to maximize shareholders gains over paying ppl. Add into that the very easy fix of cutting loan interest or at a minimum saying once you've paid back double your original loan your done and some of this could be fixed. 

Wal-mart is a great example. Most of their workforce is on government assistance because they have decided to pay as little as possible and have the government subsidize their employees. But that's not what ppl are told, they are told companies are struggling and it's not true. They report record profits year after year because they've decided that investing in the workers is not of interest. 

And here we are. Wage growth has stagnated while the cost of living has increased. Employers yell about qualified ppl but won't pay them or train them. The only fields I know that are exceptions are trades where there's been such a labor shortage they have to pay ppl. 

Lots of interesting dynamics at play. 

What you say is happening, but there are still careers for the middle and lower classes to pursue that will eventually help them gain wealth while working for corporations, but you have to have the skills they need and will pay for, and you have to be willing to go where the better jobs are - and that could change at any time during your career.  
 

I’m retired and I still consult a little bit on the side because I like meaningful work and feeling a purpose.  What saddens me is when I reflect back on how I saw so many great companies change or disappear completely under industry consolidation the over the past 40+ years.  So much consolidation made the surviving corporations even more powerful, less competition is never good.  Corporate focus shifted away from the important things like product innovation, quality, cost, and customer satisfaction to “shareholder value”.   Long term goals are a thing of the past, the stock price must go up right now.   I remember when my company talked about our reputation and our commitment to stakeholders - customers, employees, the community, and the environment.  I believed in that.   Stakeholders are never mentioned anymore, it is all about stockholders. 

Yes, I sound like an old guy but I saw it happen before my eyes and it continues today.  I am still a believer in capitalism and free/private enterprise because it can truly drive and reward excellence, but we have to figure out how to be better at it.  

This diverts from the college cost/student loan conversation so I’ll let it go here.  

 

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

That closing paragraph doesn't make you sound smart. It makes you sound ignorant. I hope you don't take that poorly but you're smugly ignoring the changes between you at 52 getting a degree 25 years ago and what the cost is today compared to the average job you can get while in college. 

 

I don't take it the wrong way. The intent was to give insight as to what I've seem in personal experience. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. I'm merely human after all.

As to the subject matter. My mentors journey to a Masters wasn't 25 years ago, he shared in the rising cost until completion a mere 7 years ago. And yes, I fully recognize costs have become ridiculous, but that's the point of why I even responded to begin with, even with those costs more than several in my life, in recent years, have found a way.

There is a conversation to be had on costs and the effects it is having on the ability to afford higher education, but it wasn't my intent to agree or disagree on that, merely show that it can be done. As a matter of fact, one of the first things in my first comment was "patience, time invested" as a precurser to what I've seen others do.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Scottysabres

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

And because your nephew graduated 6 years later than he would have (unclear if this was a Bachelors but I'll assume that) he's now 6 years behind on his retirement. Something else to consider. 

I don't agree with this as a foundational statement. I didn't start electrical work until I was 26, i spent 4 yrs in the svc and an additional 6 yrs exploring different jobs, does that mean I am 10 yrs behind on my retirement? 

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I don't agree with this as a foundational statement. I didn't start electrical work until I was 26, i spent 4 yrs in the svc and an additional 6 yrs exploring different jobs, does that mean I am 10 yrs behind on my retirement? 

Retirement is different for everyone.  I know people that left at 55 and love the freedom and will never miss work. I know others that will work until they are pushed out the door.  
 

Pensions are pretty much gone now unless you work for the government.   Social security changes are coming to reflect the longer lifespans of people, this will push out retirement ages for many people in the future.  

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

I don't take it the wrong way. The intent was to give insight as to what I've seem in personal experience. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. I'm merely human after all.

As to the subject matter. My mentors journey to a Masters wasn't 25 years ago, he shared in the rising cost until completion a mere 7 years ago. And yes, I fully recognize costs have become ridiculous, but that's the point of why I even responded to begin with, even with those costs more than several in my life, in recent years, have found a way.

There is a conversation to be had on costs and the effects it is having on the ability to afford higher education, but it wasn't my intent to agree or disagree on that, merely show that it can be done. As a matter of fact, one of the first things in my first comment was "patience, time invested" as a precurser to what I've seen others do.

Being able to "find a way" has been the universal dismissal phrase for a lot of this. "Well they found a way so it's fine." I am not saying that is what you said, just noting that is how it is being used. I have a friend who constantly says "well I found a way" and has suggested my wife is dumb for going into education because it doesn't pay enough. Rising costs are a result of stagnant government spending on education and rising costs of colleges. It isn't just administrators. Colleges have to have all these extras to attract students, it isn't about education anymore, it is about an experience. It sucks and idk what or if there is a solution.

That said not everyone should go to college. Trades are valuable and always have been and should be viewed with the same appreciation as some Bacherlor's degreed tech bro.