What Does KA have to accomplish for this off-season to be considered a success?

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

Make @Buffalonillsmile and @PerreaultForever love the Sabres again.

The mistaken impression is I do not love them but I do. Always have. I just don't want to wait 3-5 more years or however long it takes to develop a full roster with our own picks and prospects. I felt we were ready to leap forward last year and I WAS RIGHT as we were so close and if we'd just been a LITTLE better there you were and everything looks up. So now we're there again and I just don't want to wait any longer. If that desire ain't love idk what is. 

[PerreaultForever]

Success - a solid 4D and a decent veteran goalie.

Great success - a solid 4D, a decent veteran goalie and a 3C/4C 2 way PK guy. 

Brilliance - a solid 4D, a decent veteran goalie, a 3C/4C 2 way PK guy, a 6D/depth defenseman and a 2 way PK gritty player with size. 

[Marvin]

14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Success - a solid 4D and a decent veteran goalie.

Great success - a solid 4D, a decent veteran goalie and a 3C/4C 2 way PK guy. 

Brilliance - a solid 4D, a decent veteran goalie, a 3C/4C 2 way PK guy, a 6D/depth defenseman and a 2 way PK gritty player with size. 

I like these gradations.

[SwampD]

11 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The mistaken impression is I do not love them but I do. Always have. I just don't want to wait 3-5 more years or however long it takes to develop a full roster with our own picks and prospects. I felt we were ready to leap forward last year and I WAS RIGHT as we were so close and if we'd just been a LITTLE better there you were and everything looks up. So now we're there again and I just don't want to wait any longer. If that desire ain't love idk what is. 

Isn't 20/20 hindsight a wonderful thing?

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, Marvin said:

I like these gradations.

I don't because they are deliberately setup to fail. "Brilliance" is never going to happen. Great Success is unlikely as well because there isn't a forward spot for a 3c. Between Mitts and Krebs it is laughable to expect that. 

Brilliant: top4 D, top 6d, veteran goalie addition

the other levels would be subtracting those things

Pretty good: Top 4 D, Top 6 D

Fine: Top 4 D

[Eleven]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Great Success is unlikely as well because there isn't a forward spot for a 3c.

Agreed.  The Sabres should not be spending assets--whether picks, players/prospects, or just plain cap space--on a 3C right now.  Not a need.  

Now, if they were to trade one of the 3C/4Cs in a package to get something more, and get another player capable of that spot in the package back, sure, but the motivation can't be to improve at 3C.  It's gotta be to improve at D/G.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Isn't 20/20 hindsight a wonderful thing?

Of course it is, and you can take all the shots you want at me, but it doesn't change the fact that I was right. I'm not always right. I was dead wrong on Tage Thompson. I'm likely going to end up being wrong about Mitts. I did however say that the Reinhart trade was brilliant and Levi would probably be a star goalie for us back when most people were bitching that he was some 7th rounder and we didn't get enough in that deal. Totally right about Cozens and proclaimed him when we drafted him. So ya, hindsight. Not right about everything, but I was spot on about this team being agonizingly close AND (despite the impressions here) being far more optimistic than Adams was last year at this time. The pessimism set in when he missed the moment. 

Hoping for now, that he doesn't miss it again.  

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't because they are deliberately setup to fail. "Brilliance" is never going to happen.

"never going to happen" and I'm supposedly the pessimist. 

They may not happen, but those are the weak spots that need to be resolved. If they aren't, we will be bitching about those weak spots come year's end and if we miss the playoffs again, it'll probably be because we didn't deal with filling those holes. 

Clearly, you're not a real fan if you don't think your GM can be brilliant. 

[LGR4GM]

37 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

"never going to happen" and I'm supposedly the pessimist. 

They may not happen, but those are the weak spots that need to be resolved. If they aren't, we will be bitching about those weak spots come year's end and if we miss the playoffs again, it'll probably be because we didn't deal with filling those holes. 

Clearly, you're not a real fan if you don't think your GM can be brilliant. 

3 and 4 c are not weak spots. This team has an abundance of centers and forwards. The 2way guy with gritty size was already added, Greenway. You are doing this deliberately so when Adams doesn't add all these forwards you want, you can come back say "LOOK! Adams sucks! He is so bad!" when in reality the forward ranks are fine if not good. They need 2 defenders and another veteran goalie to pair with Levi. 

We aren't missing the playoffs in 2024. I will bet money on that. 

To the bolded, lol. 

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't because they are deliberately setup to fail. "Brilliance" is never going to happen. Great Success is unlikely as well because there isn't a forward spot for a 3c. Between Mitts and Krebs it is laughable to expect that. 

Brilliant: top4 D, top 6d, veteran goalie addition

the other levels would be subtracting those things

Pretty good: Top 4 D, Top 6 D

Fine: Top 4 D

Brilliant: 3C, Top 4 D, Vet G

Very good: Top 4 D, Vet G

Pretty good: Vet G 

Fine but Dicey: Top 4 D

 

Those are mine. I’d rather have the vet G if I could only have 1 thing. I said “fine but dicey” for the last option but in reality based on what I THINK they need, i don’t really think a run back in net is fine

I don’t expect a F but I wouldn’t rule it out, nor would I say there’s no room for someone who is defensively responsible. Fixing the D doesn’t have to just be defensemen. Example: 

Skinner - Thompson - Tuch

Peterka - Cozens - Quinn

Mittelstadt - Laughton - Greenway

Girgensons - Krebs - Okposo 

I’m kinda surprised you have an offseason where we don’t address GT as “pretty good”, tbh

Edited June 23, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Brilliant: 3C, Top 4 D, Vet G

Very good: Top 4 D, Vet G

Pretty good: Vet G 

Fine but Dicey: Top 4 D

 

Those are mine. I’d rather have the vet G if I could only have 1 thing. I said “fine but dicey” for the last option but in reality based on what I THINK they need, i don’t really think a run back in net is fine

I don’t expect a F but I wouldn’t rule it out, nor would I say there’s no room for someone who is defensively responsible. Fixing the D doesn’t have to just be defensemen. Example: 

Skinner - Thompson - Tuch

Peterka - Cozens - Quinn

Mittelstadt - Laughton - Greenway

Girgensons - Krebs - Okposo 

I’m kinda surprised you have an offseason where we don’t address GT as “pretty good”, tbh

They have already partially addressed goaltending IMO. 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

They have already partially addressed goaltending IMO. 

Right, I guess I just meant “nothing further than what we ended the season with”. But I get you 

And oh I just saw your thread lol

[North Buffalo]

Draft/offseason success... At least 2  D in first 3 rounds, trade VO, sign or trade for a top 4 D... as for goalie... such a weird position but since there are so many good vets available... get one... lose Comrie... UPL is an enigma... he could become really good at any time... dont give up on him.. 

As far as season goes... make the playoffs and compete well.

Edited June 23, 2023 by North Buffalo

[SwampD]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Of course it is, and you can take all the shots you want at me, but it doesn't change the fact that I was right. I'm not always right. I was dead wrong on Tage Thompson. I'm likely going to end up being wrong about Mitts. I did however say that the Reinhart trade was brilliant and Levi would probably be a star goalie for us back when most people were bitching that he was some 7th rounder and we didn't get enough in that deal. Totally right about Cozens and proclaimed him when we drafted him. So ya, hindsight. Not right about everything, but I was spot on about this team being agonizingly close AND (despite the impressions here) being far more optimistic than Adams was last year at this time. The pessimism set in when he missed the moment. 

Hoping for now, that he doesn't miss it again.  

Hope is not a strategy. What if you were wrong?… and they doubled down like you “thought” they should have, and Tage wasn’t the Tage we know now,… and they didn’t just miss out on the playoffs? Then what? Start over?

The path the Sabres appear to be on, at least by me, and apparently KA and others, is the right one. It’s moving in the right direction. It’s slow, but seems to right, and they are getting better every season.

But, if they don’t spend to the cap floor on actual skaters this year, they can ***** off.

[Buffalonill]

3 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Hope is not a strategy. What if you were wrong?… and they doubled down like you “thought” they should have, and Tage wasn’t the Tage we know now,… and they didn’t just miss out on the playoffs? Then what? Start over?

The path the Sabres appear to be on, at least by me, and apparently KA and others, is the right one. It’s moving in the right direction. It’s slow, but seems to right, and they are getting better every season.

But, if they don’t spend to the cap floor on actual skaters this year, they can ***** off.

They won't and people will still make excuses about it .

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Brilliant: 3C, Top 4 D, Vet G

Very good: Top 4 D, Vet G

Pretty good: Vet G 

Fine but Dicey: Top 4 D

 

Those are mine. I’d rather have the vet G if I could only have 1 thing. I said “fine but dicey” for the last option but in reality based on what I THINK they need, i don’t really think a run back in net is fine

I don’t expect a F but I wouldn’t rule it out, nor would I say there’s no room for someone who is defensively responsible. Fixing the D doesn’t have to just be defensemen. Example: 

Skinner - Thompson - Tuch

Peterka - Cozens - Quinn

Mittelstadt - Laughton - Greenway

Girgensons - Krebs - Okposo 

I’m kinda surprised you have an offseason where we don’t address GT as “pretty good”, tbh

I’m not bothering with Laughton based on the fact they declined a late 1st and a 2nd for him already. 
 

In my general opinion, KA will be at least somewhat judged based on what he does with the Top 4 Dman more than even the goalie position. Goalies are harder to acquire and gauge prior to the season. I’d certainly recommend a good vet for Levi but there a lot of potential issues that may muddy the waters.

The Top 4 Dman is a vital piece and plenty of options exist for targeting. Don’t pull a Murray and pay 1.50 for a dollar but be sure to get a truly solid 3/4D for Power

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

I’m not bothering with Laughton based on the fact they declined a late 1st and a 2nd for him already. 
 

In my general opinion, KA will be at least somewhat judged based on what he does with the Top 4 Dman more than even the goalie position. Goalies are harder to acquire and gauge prior to the season. I’d certainly recommend a good vet for Levi but there a lot of potential issues that may muddy the waters.

The Top 4 Dman is a vital piece and plenty of options exist for targeting. Don’t pull a Murray and pay 1.50 for a dollar but be sure to get a truly solid 3/4D for Power

You aren’t interested in anyone, I know. You are the guy in improv class who says “no” all the time eventually to the point where the teacher sets you aside and explains the “yes” rule of improv 

/s

- - - 

As for goalie, and whether he will be “judged” on it: of course he will. Clock has already started on that. He already has a failing grade in that specific regard. “Who even is there?” need not apply when the time frame is your 4th season. At some point the expectation is just that it’s fixed. I’m not judging him based on what he does in the offseason at the position, have already mentioned that. He’ll get judged on the results of the position this coming season. If the results are sub-par, he’ll again be adjudged to have failed the position 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Hope is not a strategy. What if you were wrong?… and they doubled down like you “thought” they should have, and Tage wasn’t the Tage we know now,… and they didn’t just miss out on the playoffs? Then what? Start over?

The path the Sabres appear to be on, at least by me, and apparently KA and others, is the right one. It’s moving in the right direction. It’s slow, but seems to right, and they are getting better every season.

But, if they don’t spend to the cap floor on actual skaters this year, they can ***** off.

It’s not even slow! 37 points to 75 to 91 in 2 seasons is not slow.

i think what bothers me most about the whining is the idea that they’ll never get better without some big moves, when they have consistently gotten better without big moves.

Yes, they need tweaks. But the core of the team is here. They need most of Levi UPL Power Mule Quinn Peterka Krebs to take the same steps they got from Tuch Thompson Cozens Dahlin and Mittelstadt.

I know most of you see it. I wonder what others are watching.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

They won't and people will still make excuses about it .

Just outright lies and deliberately negative spin. They are already over the cap floor and are poised to extend Dahlin, Power and probably Mitts.

Are you expecting them to make a bunch of salary dumps this summer to get back down?

Edited June 23, 2023 by dudacek

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It’s not even slow! 37 points to 75 to 91 in 2 seasons is not slow.

i think what bothers me most about the whining is the idea that they’ll never get better without some big moves, when they have consistently gotten better without big moves.

Yes, they need tweaks. But the core of the team is here. They need most of Levi UPL Power Mule Quinn Peterka Krebs to take the same steps they got from Tuch Thompson Cozens Dahlin and Mittelstadt.

I know most of you see it. I wonder what others are watching.

37 points to 75, considering they only played 56 games that first year, and the covid cluster that season became, isn’t all that compelling as it’s more less akin to the jump we saw from 14-15 to 15-16, going from attempting to lose to trying to win. But we stalled out after that year, and to your point, 75 to 91 is impressive

So the course of action is looking on target so far. 

Failure to make the playoffs this year would be the first big speed bump, and doing that again the following year means failed plan.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

37 points to 75, considering they only played 56 games that first year, and the covid cluster that season became, isn’t all that compelling as it’s more less akin to the jump we saw from 14-15 to 15-16, going from attempting to lose to trying to win. But we stalled out after that year, and to your point, 75 to 91 is impressive

So the course of action is looking on target so far. 

Failure to make the playoffs this year would be the first big speed bump, and doing that again the following year means failed plan.

You can’t minimize the COVID year.

They were the worst team in the league, they lost a stunning 18 games in a row, half the roster including most of their core desperately wanted out and they were mind-numbingly painful to watch.

It was about as low as you can go. We were completely and utterly broken.

It needs to be said, because that is the proper context.

That is where we have come from in two years.

Not directed to you, you know where we came from and have been very clear about where you want them to go.

But the “Adams and Granato and their plan sucks” crowd can ***** right off as far as I’m concerned.

Edited June 23, 2023 by dudacek

[Thorny]

38 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You can’t minimize the COVID year.

They were the worst team in the league, they lost a stunning 18 games in a row, half the roster including most of their core desperately wanted out and they were mind-numbingly painful to watch.

It was about as low as you can go.

It needs to be said, because that is the proper context.

That is where we have come from in two years.

Not directed to you, you know where we came from and have been very clear about where you want them to go.

But the “Adams and Granato and their plan sucks” crowd can ***** right off as far as I’m concerned.

You didn’t even account for season length when listing the point totals. Respectfully, that’s framing it in a really biased way.

You used “You”, then said it was not directed at me, so assuming that’s the case, and I *can* minimize the covid year, that’s good, because that’s what I’m going to do. 

I’m not giving Adams credit for improving upon a season with aaaaall of the other random extenuating factors I mentioned the other day**, especially *a season he was the GM for* lol. So he put together a season so stinky stank bad that a league-relative poor 75 point season (bottom 10) was somehow (using your numbers) able to be a whopping *38 points better* than it? To your point, the year was astronomically bad. The improvement speaks way, way more so to how bad that season was than it does performance the following year. 

I minimize the jump from tank 2015 to the 81 points the following year, too. It doesn’t count. They went to 76 the next. Murray lost his job. Adams went to 91. THAT’S impressive.

I believe the performance in the covid year to be an anomaly. It’s totally cool if you count the improvement from it in a numbers don’t lie way, that’s usually me, too, this one is just one of those random exceptions for me 

At the very least, I’m sure we can agree it was in essence a 54 point season, not 37

** >

On 6/22/2023 at 4:44 PM, Thorny said:

I have a hard time discerning anything from that Covid year from hell. There was just so much that was unusual about it. Remember, they couldn’t even practice? Weird divisions and scheduling? Sabres in a strong division? At then the Jack injury right at the start. I don’t think it represents a sample size worthy of much of anything.

Coincidentally, that’s also why i feel it doesn’t represent an honest to goodness college try at “going for it” from KA

Additionally, with a non “arrived” Tage that’s a putrid bottom 6, and once you factor in Eichel’s injury, the F unit is kinda just poor

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

An additional issue with 37-75-91 is its strength lies entirely in the improvement number over number. Add one misstep in there and it’s, say, 37-75-91-89 and we’re back to looking at average points, and in that case wooooooo boy. 

 

 

Make the playoffs. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

At the very least, I’m sure we can agree it was in essence a 54 point season, not 37

** >

 

We can.

It seems important to you that Adams bears a degree of responsibility for the COVID season, and I’m not going to debate that either.

What I will debate is anything that hand waves how bad that season was. I think it was the absolute nadir of my fandom, which is now approaching 50 years.

 

[Thorny]

Just now, dudacek said:

We can.

It seems important to you that Adams bears a degree of responsibility for the COVID season, and I’m not going to debate that either.

What I will debate is anything that hand waves how bad that season was. I think it was the absolute nadir of my fandom, which is now approaching 50 years.

 

I mean he certainly bears a degree. How much is debatable.

I’m not exactly sure what I think, tbh. generally I just count it, or don’t, depending on which better serves my argument in the moment.

I see your point re your last sentence. For me if I’m being truly honest I think each year since the tank has gotten a little bit worse