Layout Your Offseason Plan

[Crusader1969]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Is a good 2nd line player on a productive 2nd line more important to this team than a legitimate shutdown defenceman?

Especially on a team that has Mittelstadt, Quinn, Peterka, Olofsson, Kulich, Savoie and Rosen?

No but why are you assuming the only way to get a legit 2nd pair Dman is to trade one of those …wait, why did you include Olofsson? He will be traded and maybe even for said Dman 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

No but why are you assuming the only way to get a legit 2nd pair Dman is to trade one of those …wait, why did you include Olofsson? He will be traded and maybe even for said Dman 

I don’t think it’s the only way, but it’s the most likely way and a price we can afford to pay given our depth in that area.

I hope Olofsson can get it done. Not sure it’s likely.

[kas23]

58 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think it’s the only way, but it’s the most likely way and a price we can afford to pay given our depth in that area.

I hope Olofsson can get it done. Not sure it’s likely.

I happen to agree with you. It’s not the only way to get a top 4 D. We can sign one of those. However, if we want a young, elite shutdown D, which rarely hit the market, we’d likely have to give up quality. This certainly shouldn’t be for any D, but one that pains the other team to let go. And Oloffson is not gonna do it. But, yeah, we certainly can go the poor man’s top 4 defenseman though. 

[Crusader1969]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think it’s the only way, but it’s the most likely way and a price we can afford to pay given our depth in that area.

I hope Olofsson can get it done. Not sure it’s likely.

No Olofsson isn’t going to get a top 4 by himself but also he won’t be on the Sabres, so when you list all their wingers you shouldn’t include him 

[Crusader1969]

2 hours ago, kas23 said:

I happen to agree with you. It’s not the only way to get a top 4 D. We can sign one of those. However, if we want a young, elite shutdown D, which rarely hit the market, we’d likely have to give up quality. This certainly shouldn’t be for any D, but one that pains the other team to let go. And Oloffson is not gonna do it. But, yeah, we certainly can go the poor man’s top 4 defenseman though. 

Or find a guy that told his team that is one year away from being a UFA and told his current team he won’t be re-signing.    I’m sure they can get a guy like Hanifan without giving up JJP, Quinn, Kulich or Savoie.  
 

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

No Olofsson isn’t going to get a top 4 by himself but also he won’t be on the Sabres, so when you list all their wingers you shouldn’t include him 

I agree he’s getting traded but until he is, he belongs on that list, particularly when his presence - directly or indirectly - as an asset that can be used to improve the defence. I think his presence actually strengthens your argument.

[Carmel Corn]

53 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Or find a guy that told his team that is one year away from being a UFA and told his current team he won’t be re-signing.    I’m sure they can get a guy like Hanifan without giving up JJP, Quinn, Kulich or Savoie.  
 

Perhaps, but when you have a loaded talent pool, it might work against you.  The other team's GM might look like a failure if he only gets Buffalo's 5th or 6th best prospect vs. one of our blue chippers.

[nfreeman]

 

16 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think Adams would either, I was wondering if you would trade any of the Sabres youth for Pesce.

To me, Pesce is a known factor; his value is established. I’d trade a Max-level player for him any day. I’d bet good money that not all of JJ Quinn Savoie and Kulich will reach Max’s level, let alone Vanek’s.

It sounds like (from that group) JJ is the one you’re betting on to hit big, and that’s fine, he could be that guy.

But it’s only logical that they aren’t all going to be that guy. You pick the Paul Cyr and trade him for Pesce, you’re going to win that trade big time.

Is there any one of those guys you trade for Pesce, assuming a contract can be reached?

Hot take:  peak Max, who was one of the most exciting Sabres of all time and was a better playmaker than he's generally given credit for, was better than peak Vanek, who became an NHL vagabond after leaving Buffalo because despite respectable numbers, nobody wanted him around -- including his Olympic coach, who publicly threw him under the bus for his team's disappointing showing.

 

16 hours ago, Thorny said:

I kinda want to see your answer to the question though. Are they all off limits in your view? All future stars? Realistically, are we verging on a globe trotter level forward group in a couple years? 

 

I wouldn't trade any of the Fantastic 4 for Pesce.  Each of the 4 has legit top-line scorer potential.  I think as a matter of NHL asset management, you don't trade a guy like that for a defensive defenseman -- only for a scoring defenseman.  And it doesn't really matter if the Sabres have a number of prospects in this category -- it's Tim Murray thinking to let them burn a hole in your pocket.

I'd be curious if anyone can put forth an example of a defensive defenseman at Pesce's level being traded for a rich price.  Gavrikov (a rental), plus Korpisalo, were traded in 2023 for a conditional #1 that became #22 OA, plus a #3 next year.  Ben Chiarot, also a rental, was traded in 2022 and returned Florida's #1 a year later, plus a lower-tier prospect and a #4. 

Those prices are quite a bit lower than #13 or any of the 4 blue-chippers that our hungry Canadian fans want to put on the table, although admittedly it's not exactly apples-to-apples because Pesce has a year remaining on his contract. 

I also don't see Carolina getting a return for Pesce that is equivalent to JJP, Quinn, Kulich, Savoie or #13 OA.  As stated above, he's a defensive defenseman and he's going to need a fat new contract in a period when the cap is flat and there isn't much excess money in the system.

 

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Perhaps, but when you have a loaded talent pool, it might work against you.  The other team's GM might look like a failure if he only gets Buffalo's 5th or 6th best prospect vs. one of our blue chippers.

This is what worries me with potential trades.  GMs are going to ask for a massive overpayment because "Buffalo can afford it with its prospect pool."   That could make a decent trade impossible.  What should GMKA do if every trade he tries starts looking like the Chychrun negotiations?  Some people here will love it because lose-lose for the Sabres is win-win for their desire to whine either about the failure to make a move or bad asset management.  For the rest of us, what would you do if every potential trade counter-offer is on the order of Quinn for Hanifin or Cozens for DeMelo?

[Thorny]

36 minutes ago, Marvin said:

This is what worries me with potential trades.  GMs are going to ask for a massive overpayment because "Buffalo can afford it with its prospect pool."   That could make a decent trade impossible.  What should GMKA do if every trade he tries starts looking like the Chychrun negotiations?  Some people here will love it because lose-lose for the Sabres is win-win for their desire to whine either about the failure to make a move or bad asset management.  For the rest of us, what would you do if every potential trade counter-offer is on the order of Quinn for Hanifin or Cozens for DeMelo?

Respectfully, this reads like a pre-written straw man for the inevitable “what could Adams have even done?” line of thinking. It doesn’t really stand to reason to think that, for some reason, Adams is across the board being lowballed by GMs. 

There’s also a staggering degree of “because Buffalo” included in this line of thinking. Plenty of teams have good prospect pools, plenty that have gotten ranked 1st over the years have found a way to make trades. It goes both ways: teams might think we have some wiggle room but they are also then aware the pool itself is deep: demanding better prospects from us only works if they actually consummate a trade: contrary to popular belief the goal of the rest of the league isn’t to ensure Buffalo stays at the bottom. At the end of the day a GM wouldn’t take a lesser prospect from another team, literally cut off their nose to spite their face, to spite Buffalo simply because they “feel” we can handle giving up more. 

“Ah, we couldn’t get Buffalo’s 4th ranked prospect, but we got a guy who, while worse, is relatively higher in the Yotes pool!”

Not much logic to it 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Thorny

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Lots of beach time.  Kayaking and canoeing in the sea too.  We have a new boat tied up at our wharf.

If only it was a bit warmer and not raining for a week we'd be 'in like Flynn'. 

😎

[kas23]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I wouldn't trade any of the Fantastic 4 for Pesce.  Each of the 4 has legit top-line scorer potential.  I think as a matter of NHL asset management, you don't trade a guy like that for a defensive defenseman -- only for a scoring defenseman.  And it doesn't really matter if the Sabres have a number of prospects in this category -- it's Tim Murray thinking to let them burn a hole in your pocket.

I'd be curious if anyone can put forth an example of a defensive defenseman at Pesce's level being traded for a rich price.  Gavrikov (a rental), plus Korpisalo, were traded in 2023 for a conditional #1 that became #22 OA, plus a #3 next year.  Ben Chiarot, also a rental, was traded in 2022 and returned Florida's #1 a year later, plus a lower-tier prospect and a #4. 

Those prices are quite a bit lower than #13 or any of the 4 blue-chippers that our hungry Canadian fans want to put on the table, although admittedly it's not exactly apples-to-apples because Pesce has a year remaining on his contract. 

I also don't see Carolina getting a return for Pesce that is equivalent to JJP, Quinn, Kulich, Savoie or #13 OA.  As stated above, he's a defensive defenseman and he's going to need a fat new contract in a period when the cap is flat and there isn't much excess money in the system.

 

I don’t think anyone is suggesting we give up a JJP level player for Pesce. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now. People on here even generally agreed against trading such a player for Chychrun as well. I think what people have in mind is a Jiricek or Miller type of player. 

[sweetlou]

Maybe Sabres trade back at the draft from #13 to like #18-#23 and gain an extra 2nd rd pick.  They then can flip the later 1st rd pick with Joker to get Pesce.  It doesn't feel as bad as trading the #13 overall pickand you get an additional 2nd?

[Crusader1969]

2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Perhaps, but when you have a loaded talent pool, it might work against you.  The other team's GM might look like a failure if he only gets Buffalo's 5th or 6th best prospect vs. one of our blue chippers.

True

 

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

This is what worries me with potential trades.  GMs are going to ask for a massive overpayment because "Buffalo can afford it with its prospect pool."   That could make a decent trade impossible.  What should GMKA do if every trade he tries starts looking like the Chychrun negotiations?  Some people here will love it because lose-lose for the Sabres is win-win for their desire to whine either about the failure to make a move or bad asset management.  For the rest of us, what would you do if every potential trade counter-offer is on the order of Quinn for Hanifin or Cozens for DeMelo?

Then Adams should make use of the card at the bottom of the deck and offer sheet someones RFA.

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

Respectfully, this reads like a pre-written straw man for the inevitable “what could Adams have even done?” line of thinking. It doesn’t really stand to reason to think that, for some reason, Adams is across the board being lowballed by GMs. 

There’s also a staggering degree of “because Buffalo” included in this line of thinking. Plenty of teams have good prospect pools, plenty that have gotten ranked 1st over the years have found a way to make trades. It goes both ways: teams might think we have some wiggle room but they are also then aware the pool itself is deep: demanding better prospects from us only works if they actually consummate a trade: contrary to popular belief the goal of the rest of the league isn’t to ensure Buffalo stays at the bottom. At the end of the day a GM wouldn’t take a lesser prospect from another team, literally cut off their nose to spite their face, to spite Buffalo simply because they “feel” we can handle giving up more. 

“Ah, we couldn’t get Buffalo’s 4th ranked prospect, but we got a guy who, while worse, is relatively higher in the Yotes pool!”

Not much logic to it 

No.  I am asking a straight question.  I personally would be the GM saying, "you can afford to lose Kulich or Savoie, so suck it up."   And as long as the offers from other teams were comparable, I would take one of the other offers and then let the public know that the Sabres were being cheap and exaggerate the players offered.  The idea is to undermine the support of an irrational, desperate fan base and to sow discontent among the younger players who would hear, perhaps erroneously, that the team had given up on them.

I want to know what you would do.  I personally would overpay somewhat if need be.  I also would be more likely to overpay a bit to a rebuilding team out west.  I also expect that until these holes are plugged, GMKA is going to have some tough negotiations with players on contracts and GMs on player prices because our weaknesses are so glaring.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I forgot surfing.  Lots of surfing.

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, Marvin said:

No.  I am asking a straight question.  I personally would be the GM saying, "you can afford to lose Kulich or Savoie, so suck it up."   And as long as the offers from other teams were comparable, I would take one of the other offers and then let the public know that the Sabres were being cheap and exaggerate the players offered.  The idea is to undermine the support of an irrational, desperate fan base and to sow discontent among the younger players who would hear, perhaps erroneously, that the team had given up on them.

I want to know what you would do.  I personally would overpay somewhat if need be.  I also would be more likely to overpay a bit to a rebuilding team out west.  I also expect that until these holes are plugged, GMKA is going to have some tough negotiations with players on contracts and GMs on player prices because our weaknesses are so glaring.

What I would do? Something like this probably 

 

[Marvin]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

What I would do? Something like this probably 

 

If you know the Connery Bond movies really well, Austin Powers is that much funnier.

[thewookie1]

https://www.capfriendly.com/forums/thread/732049?post_id=4224472
 

still would have an issue in goal