Is Kevyn Adams doing anything?

[JohnC]

55 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

By my count, I think 5 nhl level trades have been completed since the Sabres started. So 5 times have teams traded nhl level guys since the season began. 

How many of those trades would you consider to be consequential?

[Pimlach]

54 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

The real thing for me that I think has been lost in recent discussions is I firmly believe Adams missed an opportunity this year. People here think I'm the resident pessimist, but if you go back to free agency and before the season I said I thought there was the possibility of a breakout season but a lot depended on whether or not Cozens matured to a high level and how the 2 rookies played. Kid line has shown that moment is right there and right now. The other key for me was filling the holes, which were 3C, goaltending, and defensive depth (I wanted 2 solid D men signed or traded for). These holes are the thing likely keeping us from the playoffs and I think it's an opportunity missed. 

Adam's timeline is slow and future based. imo TOO SLOW. That's my beef. 

Not picking up Mike Reilly for example was a spendthrift moment that tells me winning this year doesn't matter to him. So imo Adams could have and should have done more than he has. (and before anyone says Reilly sucks, he's way better than Pilut)

So you wanted more moves like Detroit and NJ made.  

Edited December 18, 2022 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So your praising KA for getting Jost on waivers (and his $2 mill salary) when our organizational depth is at forward, and you are also ok with him not trading for D help. What about grabbing D help on waivers?  Myers and Reilly are but two players who have been on waivers in recent weeks and both are better than all of our D 7-10.   I’m sorry it’s past time for help to have been acquired.

Without any hesitation I am praising the GM for acquiring Jost on waivers. The GM got him for nothing! No assets for given up for him. He adds an element of grit that this roster can use. He's versatile and can play cohesively with different players and lines. And he is solid on the PK. 

As far as the D unit is constituted, I agree with you that the lower pairings are insufficient. Depending where this team stands as the season progresses and the trade deadline approaches, you can't preclude a deal to upgrade the lower half of the pairings. But it is more likely that the issue will be addressed in the offseason than during this season.  

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Looks like Maroon held on for dear life. 

What you are looking for is probably the last ingredient in the puzzle.    

What @PerreaultForeveris looking for are palooka players whose utility in this era of NHL hockey is minimal at best, and almost a generation outdated. The method to get better is to add talent. Looking back for a solution such as bringing in fighters in an era where there are few fights is not relevant to today's game. The reality is that he won't acknowledge is that the Sabres don't get pushed around. They have more than enough tough players to hold their own against any team. Adding talent to the lower half of the roster and buttressing the goalie position are what is needed to move up the ranks. We're getting there. It's just going to take a little more patience to see this process through. 

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What @PerreaultForeveris looking for are palooka players whose utility in this era of NHL hockey is minimal at best, and almost a generation outdated. The method to get better is to add talent. Looking back for a solution such as bringing in fighters in an era where there are few fights is not relevant to today's game. The reality is that he won't acknowledge is that the Sabres don't get pushed around. They have more than enough tough players to hold their own against any team. Adding talent to the lower half of the roster and buttressing the goalie position are what is needed to move up the ranks. We're getting there. It's just going to take a little more patience to see this process through. 

I agree with you on regular season play. Maybe not for playoffs, we don’t know yet   

Playoffs will require another level of “grit” - which is why Maroon was picked up by St Louis and then Tampa.  Which is why I think we add that piece last or close to last- because it has to fit and not be a liability.  

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think the team showed enough last year to warrant an extension. If this year ended with a significant improvement over last year, then yes. I don't dislike Granato. I see him as a guy you'd definitely want on your staff as an assistant to work with young players, just still not sure he's a great head coach. 

Who would I have hired? 

So that the youngsters and soft hockey fans can scoff, I'm a big fan of Torts. It would have meant a whole different team/style, but he was available and he'd have been my hire. Now? Trotz, without question. Torts or Trotz there ya go. (and always and still, Rick Dudley as Czar)

Yea... flyers at -29 goal differential look great under Torts, what was Adams thinking. I'm sure Torts would have patiently let Dahlin screw up last year and moved Tage to center too.

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

How many of those trades would you consider to be consequential?

Maybe 1 but I don't follow the teams who did them so hard for me to say.

[LGR4GM]

I'm really surprised Adams signing Tage Thompson early isn't getting more traction here. There's no chance in hell you could sign Thompson for under 10 mill a year right now. The guy is 3rd in the entire league in points and 2nd in goals. He's signed for another 7 years at 7.1 million... I mean that move right there is Adams doing something. 

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'm really surprised Adams signing Tage Thompson early isn't getting more traction here. There's no chance in hell you could sign Thompson for under 10 mill a year right now. The guy is 3rd in the entire league in points and 2nd in goals. He's signed for another 7 years at 7.1 million... I mean that move right there is Adams doing something. 

You can include the Samuelsson signing in the category of the GM having foresight. 

[Pimlach]

33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'm really surprised Adams signing Tage Thompson early isn't getting more traction here. There's no chance in hell you could sign Thompson for under 10 mill a year right now. The guy is 3rd in the entire league in points and 2nd in goals. He's signed for another 7 years at 7.1 million... I mean that move right there is Adams doing something. 

This is true, and same with Samuelsson.   I was surprised that Adams locked him up long term with only 50'ish games on his NHL resume. 

Bottom line is the guys in this FO know more than we do, and more than we think they do.  

As for Granato, Thompson's work ethic and his skills have been known by the Sabres since he arrived, it took the right coach to move him to center and give him the time to figure it out.  

25 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You can include the Samuelsson signing in the category of the GM having foresight. 

... you beat me to this by a few minutes. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Pimlach

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oh I know Reaves isn't ideal, but he was available for next to nothing. The minute a better option presents itself I'd move on that upgrade. 

Right now, if you'd added him, my bottom would be:

Okposo-Jost-VO

Girgs-Krebs-Reaves

Mitts is the guy I'd sit, and Asplund rotates in and out like he is cause he's just kind of meh. Allows me to bench VO when he sucks hard one night. 

That bottom 6 isn’t crazy, but I don’t like it as much as the current bottom 6. Krebs looks good and rapidly improving with Zemgus and KO, and even a bit edgy, which I think you’ve noticed.  I also think VO-Jost-Mitts looked better last night — maybe Mitts’ best game of the season — and good enough that I want to see them for a few more games.  

[LGR4GM]

The fact Jost hasn't been bad is a little surprising. We're getting usage out of a waiver pickup. 

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

The fact Jost hasn't been bad is a little surprising. We're getting usage out of a waiver pickup. 

As a former first rounder i am not surprised that he can play.  Sometimes players find new life in a different system, with new coaches and with new players.  This is a fresh start.  I am sure Adams told him that too.  

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The fact Jost hasn't been bad is a little surprising. We're getting usage out of a waiver pickup. 

He has seemed to play well.  Wonder if he really is playing well or if it's just the expectations for what you get out of a waiver pickup are so low he seems better than he is.

Not a surprise the Avs moved on from him.  1st rounders aren't often allowed to be 4th liners for the team that drafted them because even though they can be productive there they're viewed as "busts."

Not sure why Minny gave up on him.  Anybody here watch their games?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

That bottom 6 isn’t crazy, but I don’t like it as much as the current bottom 6. Krebs looks good and rapidly improving with Zemgus and KO, and even a bit edgy, which I think you’ve noticed.  I also think VO-Jost-Mitts looked better last night — maybe Mitts’ best game of the season — and good enough that I want to see them for a few more games.  

How good is Mitts? What's his upside? What's his role on this team now and in the future? I just don't know??? This is why this is such an important season for him, and why the organization is going to make a determination about him and his role in the organization. Beyond winning as many games as possible, assessing players is an important task for this front office. And I am on record that I'm higher on Mitts than most are here. In my opinion he's got more to give. It's just a question of the best way to unlocking the door to his talents. The coach has done an excellent job in putting Krebs in a good position to succeed; I'm hoping he can do it with Mitts. 

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

As a former first rounder i am not surprised that he can play.  Sometimes players find new life in a different system, with new coaches and with new players.  This is a fresh start.  I am sure Adams told him that too.  

He reminds me of Curtis Lazar, another first round draft pick. Both Jost and Lazar were former first round picks who didn't become the players commensurate with their draft status. Each player had to modify their game and accept their more specialty role in order to stay in the league. 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

He has seemed to play well.  Wonder if he really is playing well or if it's just the expectations for what you get out of a waiver pickup are so low he seems better than he is.

Not a surprise the Avs moved on from him.  1st rounders aren't often allowed to be 4th liners for the team that drafted them because even though they can be productive there they're viewed as "busts."

Not sure why Minny gave up on him.  Anybody here watch their games?

His cf% is bad. His xgf% is not that bad. He's producing and getting 67% of his zone starts in the def zone. 

I'd say yes a solid 4th line guy who could probably hold the 3rd line center spot if needed. 

My guess is the 4th line is giving up lower quality shots but a bunch of them and they don't necessarily generate a lot of shots but the ones they do are good quality. 

[Marvin]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think the team showed enough last year to warrant an extension. If this year ended with a significant improvement over last year, then yes. I don't dislike Granato. I see him as a guy you'd definitely want on your staff as an assistant to work with young players, just still not sure he's a great head coach. 

Who would I have hired? 

So that the youngsters and soft hockey fans can scoff, I'm a big fan of Torts. It would have meant a whole different team/style, but he was available and he'd have been my hire. Now? Trotz, without question. Torts or Trotz there ya go. (and always and still, Rick Dudley as Czar)

John Tortotella is exactly the WRONG coach for young players, let alone a young team.  He is notorious for ignoring the development of young players in lieu of far less talented veterans who make fewer mistakes.  You bring him in when you have under-achieving veterans who need to be pushed a bit and you are in "win now" mode.

Barry Trotz is a defence-first coach.  I imagine that Tage Thompson would not be allowed to score at his current rate if it meant missing a defencive assignment.  The Peterka-Cozens-Quinn line would probably still be effective, albeit a lot less dynamic.  You would get a team which would cover most of its goaltending deficiencies and eventually win with tight defence.  But those goaltending deficiencies get exposed in the playoffs.

[grinreaper]

15 minutes ago, Marvin said:

John Tortotella is exactly the WRONG coach for young players, let alone a young team.  He is notorious for ignoring the development of young players in lieu of far less talented veterans who make fewer mistakes.  You bring him in when you have under-achieving veterans who need to be pushed a bit and you are in "win now" mode.

Barry Trotz is a defence-first coach.  I imagine that Tage Thompson would not be allowed to score at his current rate if it meant missing a defencive assignment.  The Peterka-Cozens-Quinn line would probably still be effective, albeit a lot less dynamic.  You would get a team which would cover most of its goaltending deficiencies and eventually win with tight defence.  But those goaltending deficiencies get exposed in the playoffs.

Just dropped into the Groundhog Day Thread to catch up and caught this post. Your thoughts regarding Tortorella could have been written by me. Teams exist in different stages and the Sabres aren't rebuilding as much as they are in the "building process". Yes, Torts is OK for a team that needs to be browbeaten to find the motivation to do their best (or at least give the impression that they are doing so). Players appear to fear him and his hard nose schtick seems to be more about his ego than anything else. He's exactly the wrong kind of guy to bring about the best in and develop young players. Guys were skating on eggshells with Krueger coaching and it would be worse with Torts. 

Obviously Trotz is a good coach but his success has been with veteran teams with talent but ones needing discipline and strict adherence to his system. He's pretty rigid and the Sabres under his direction would not be displaying the promise of becoming an offensive juggernaut. Granato is the right guy to lead this team. The players believe in him and have bought in to the extent of being willing to prove it by running through a wall without him asking them to. Granato with his calmness and teaching abilities has shown that he himself is a perfect partner for GMKA and the right person to carry out the "building process". Players must feel like being a part of the Sabres is like being part of a big and close family. The long term contracts given out recently to Tage and Samuelson certainly made those two players happy but they were a great message sent to the rest of the team. They were a gigantic example of the team showing faith and confidence in those players. No longer was the message going to be sent that "we love you and all but only want to give you a two year bridge".  

This thread is like a summary of all of the different threads that eventually got around to posts that denigrated the latest management team and wanted them to toss their long term building process aside and make deals that get the Sabres to the playoffs this year. The Sabres are building in a way that they expect will soon get them to the level that will make them contenders for the Cup for an extended period of time. I don't think any of the people here desiring patience would object to moves that will bolster the defense and goaltending and improve their chances of making the playoffs this year as long as those moves don't harm the overall plan. 

[Zamboni]

Hey hire Torts, get 3 Reeves/McSorkey type players for the 4th line so they intimidate 10 mins a night, get 4 Korab types, and get a Ron Hextall type in net and in 2022, it’s a perfect recipe to win sooo many cups.

Yup that’ll do it alright 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Zamboni

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, Pimlach said:

So you wanted more moves like Detroit and NJ made.  

Kind of. I mean I do believe in drafting your team as the main source, but not as the only source. The holes are there and we can mostly agree on what they are. They are glaringly large. I wanted a better effort to fill them rather than to be a cap floor team waiting for next year. 

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I agree with you on regular season play. Maybe not for playoffs, we don’t know yet   

Playoffs will require another level of “grit” - which is why Maroon was picked up by St Louis and then Tampa.  Which is why I think we add that piece last or close to last- because it has to fit and not be a liability.  

Maybe that's how we differ. I do not believe in building a regular season team and then trying to turn it into a playoff team. I prefer to build a playoff team from the outset and to instill that attitude and ethic right from the start so that once they make the playoffs the league better watch out.

Again I point to the Leafs as what I do NOT want to be. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Yea... flyers at -29 goal differential look great under Torts, what was Adams thinking. I'm sure Torts would have patiently let Dahlin screw up last year and moved Tage to center too.

So your argument is based on the two teams having exactly the same amount of talent and skill I guess. 

Talk about a strawman argument.

Philly has virtually no talent whatsoever yet Torts has them playing hard nosed hockey and most games are very close. They are as they say, hard to play against, when they probably should be dead last in the league but whatever, I'm sure in your videogame simulation Torts teams lose. Probably not enough pixels. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, nfreeman said:

That bottom 6 isn’t crazy, but I don’t like it as much as the current bottom 6. Krebs looks good and rapidly improving with Zemgus and KO, and even a bit edgy, which I think you’ve noticed.  I also think VO-Jost-Mitts looked better last night — maybe Mitts’ best game of the season — and good enough that I want to see them for a few more games.  

I agree fully on Krebs but I also think he's not big enough and strong enough (yet) to play as edgy as he maybe should (develop into). Having some muscle to finish some of his battles would help him grow faster imo. 

Disagree on Mitts. I'm not a fan at this point and wish there was a better option. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Marvin said:

John Tortotella is exactly the WRONG coach for young players, let alone a young team.  He is notorious for ignoring the development of young players in lieu of far less talented veterans who make fewer mistakes.  You bring him in when you have under-achieving veterans who need to be pushed a bit and you are in "win now" mode.

Barry Trotz is a defence-first coach.  I imagine that Tage Thompson would not be allowed to score at his current rate if it meant missing a defencive assignment.  The Peterka-Cozens-Quinn line would probably still be effective, albeit a lot less dynamic.  You would get a team which would cover most of its goaltending deficiencies and eventually win with tight defence.  But those goaltending deficiencies get exposed in the playoffs.

If you want goals and wide open offense then yes, Trotz is probably not your guy. If you want to win, he is. 

As for Tortorella, that's a myth. It's not at all what he's doing in Philly. Hayes being the most recent veteran to sit in the stands. The kids are the ones he's playing. They simply don't have enough of them. 

 

[LGR4GM]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

So your argument is based on the two teams having exactly the same amount of talent and skill I guess. 

Talk about a strawman argument.

Philly has virtually no talent whatsoever yet Torts has them playing hard nosed hockey and most games are very close. They are as they say, hard to play against, when they probably should be dead last in the league but whatever, I'm sure in your videogame simulation Torts teams lose. Probably not enough pixels. 

Only 3 teams in the entire league have a worse goal differential. They have lost 12 games this season by more than 1 goal. They have 7 ot/so losses and if Buffalo had that, you'd be telling us how Granato can't close out games. The flyers have 77 goals which puts them 30th in the league in goals scored. They sit 27th in the league overall. 

I'd say Carter Hart is the most likely reason they aren't worse. I'm not saying torts is a bad coach but he's not elevating anything. Granato helped turn Tage Thompson into the 2nd highest scoring player in the league and Dahlin into the 2nd highest scoring defenseman. Torts might have them playing "hard nose" hockey but that's not winning them much. 

We do agree on one thing, Philly isn't very talented but Torts isn't doing much for the talent there is. 

Your argument is based on a parallel universe where Torts is in Buffalo and we're better than the highest scoring team in the NHL under Granato. That's a strawman but maybe not in the literal sense.