Granato’s Player Rotation Philosophy

[Brawndo]

Don Granato was on the The Athletic Hockey Show with Craig Custance today and one of the topics discussed was How He decides which player is the healthy scratch each night. 
 

He mentioned that the team is still in the development stage and the philosophy is win more, not necessarily now. Therefore younger players will be put into situations against the other teams best players as they will show more growth in a two month period compared to a vet with 6 to 8 seasons. He also stated that it helps when all levels of the organization are in agreement with the plan, including Kevyn Adams and Terry Pegula. 
 

He does understand the Fans desire to make the playoffs after all these years, but Granato mentioned He doesn’t just want to make the playoffs, but He wants win in the playoffs. 
 

Here is the link if interested in listening 

 

 

[Stoner]

Darcy said the same thing in 2013.

[Getpucksdeep]

This is really good. ~25:00 - 49:00.  Thanks for posting.

[triumph_communes]

His reasoning makes sense. I just disagree with the growth mindset insistence if the team is ready to bud. Granato can always point to guys that need this approach any year no matter what - so when does he flip the switch?  Does he actually know how to when that day comes?

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

His reasoning makes sense. I just disagree with the growth mindset insistence if the team is ready to bud. Granato can always point to guys that need this approach any year no matter what - so when does he flip the switch?  Does he actually know how to when that day comes?

They're not mutually exclusive.  They're 6-3 right now and are showing top tier analytics.  Granato has always said he doesn't worry about winning:  He just wants the team to play the right way and the wins will naturally follow.  I think we're seeing that this season.  Player development is part of that:  Develop them right and they will bring the winning up even more.  Let's see where they stand in a week or two; if they're still in the top-10 league-wide/top-4 in the division, it may be a case of having our cake and eating it too.

And I think that's the way it will work:  He will still be developing the team even as they're challenging in the playoffs.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

His reasoning makes sense. I just disagree with the growth mindset insistence if the team is ready to bud. Granato can always point to guys that need this approach any year no matter what - so when does he flip the switch?  Does he actually know how to when that day comes?

I trust he does. 

[Doohicksie]

17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I trust he does. 

There won't be That Day.  It will be a gradual transition from Development to Win Now with lots of overlap.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

His reasoning makes sense. I just disagree with the growth mindset insistence if the team is ready to bud. Granato can always point to guys that need this approach any year no matter what - so when does he flip the switch?  Does he actually know how to when that day comes?

I'm with you on this.  At some point you have to go for it.  

In the next few years we'll be integrating Levi, Savoie, Kulich, Rosen and Östlund among others.  He can make the same development comment for years to come.  At some point the brain trust will have to say development is great but we need to win now and starting adding guys to make that happen especially on defense.  

Honestly, I think we are almost at that point.  The offense is clicking and coming from all lines.  We have 4 players tied for the team lead with 6 goals apiece and 5 guys tied for the team lead for assists with 6 (yes Dahlin and TNT are in both catagories).  The goaltending is solid so far.  Only the D depth is truly absent to be successful this season. I still feel KA needs to support the team and add another NHL D.

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm with you on this.  At some point you have to go for it.  

In the next few years we'll be integrating Levi, Savoie, Kulich, Rosen and Östlund among others.  He can make the same development comment for years to come.  At some point the brain trust will have to say development is great but we need to win now and starting adding guys to make that happen especially on defense.  

Honestly, I think we are almost at that point.  The offense is clicking and coming from all lines.  We have 4 players tied for the team lead with 6 goals apiece and 5 guys tied for the team lead for assists with 6 (yes Dahlin and TNT are in both catagories).  The goaltending is solid so far.  Only the D depth is truly absent to be successful this season. I still feel KA needs to support the team and add another NHL D.

I agree that we are almost at that point but I disagree that it is an either/or proposition.  If they are in a solid playoff position come the trade deadline, they will likely "go for it" and try to augment the roster with a piece or two.

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I agree that we are almost at that point but I disagree that it is an either/or proposition.  If they are in a solid playoff position come the trade deadline, they will likely "go for it" and try to augment the roster with a piece or two.

We are playing one proven NHL D right now in Dahlin.  One!  

[Doohicksie]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

We are playing one proven NHL D right now in Dahlin.  One!  

Okay?

 

What's your point?

 

They're one of the better teams in the league with one proven NHL D right now.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, Doohickie said:

Okay?

 

What's your point?

 

They're one of the better teams in the league with one proven NHL D right now.

Just think how they'd do with one or two more.

[Doohicksie]

Meh. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

Meh. 

LOL.  

I like our D group when healthy, but they aren't and might now be for quite some time.  I just don't think running with Pilut, Fitz and Clague for an extended period will hold up.  

[RochesterExpat]

27 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

There won't be That Day.  It will be a gradual transition from Development to Win Now with lots of overlap.

And we’ve started to see this transition. We’ve gone from last season’s pretty blanket “it’s okay to make mistakes” to addressing on-ice performances with changing ice time, limited press box time and continuously shifting lines. That’s not to say DG doesn’t expect mistakes or that he’s punishing players, but there’s an added layer of performance expectations this season mixed with experimentation. It’s the logical next step.

I don’t know if DG can win a cup (no one does), but I trust him at this point to get the most out of young players and inspire them to play aggressively. I’m not sold it’s enough to win a cup, but I don’t see anyone else I’d rather have in Buffalo leading the locker room at the point in time either.

[Taro T]

One thing to say in favor of it is, and it's only a 1 game sample against a team that did NOT bring it's A game, is the hope was that the team would be at a point sometime this year when they'd have 12 guys playing well enough to make Hinostroza legitimately the 13th man & a healthy scratch.  All 12 played better than Vinny last night.  It's still his turn to sit vs Pittsburgh, which is good because not 1 guy played his way out of the lineup.

And Vinny is a legit NHLer.

[Doohicksie]

47 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL.  

I like our D group when healthy, but they aren't and might now be for quite some time.  I just don't think running with Pilut, Fitz and Clague for an extended period will hold up.  

I'm not sure I agree.  They're not Dahlins but they're not trying to be.  As long as the whole team (not just the D) keeps their gaps close they may be serviceable.  I'll put a big ol' disclaimer on that and say I might be totally wrong, but we should know in a week or two.  But I think those three in particular may take steps up with increased NHL minutes.

And think of this as an investment in the future:  If they do prove they can play at the NHL level it will increase our defensive depth and we'll be that much better off when Boosh, Joki and Muel return due to the NHL experience the AHLers got.  We might find that they're not simply AHLers but actually valid NHL depth.

They seem like NHL no-names but I think Claugue and Davies (not previously mentioned but 7D right now) may have been picked similar to how they selected Comrie:  The analytics and scouting departments identified them as mature prospects who have had to work to get where they are and were blocked on their former teams but are ready to take a step up, and are players that bring good character traits to the room.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Doohickie

[PerreaultForever]

"win more, not necessarily now"  is kind of an admission of what I've been thinking and saying is their current philosophy (I phrased it harsher as they don't care about winning this year but it's essentially the same). I still don't like this idea. It's a dangerous pathway when you have a fragile culture. imo teaching WINNING first and that LOSING IS UNACCEPTABLE is a huge part of cementing that culture in place. 

I've read some Tortorella stuff this year and he seems to have a similar idea in Philly and it also seems to be working (even though skill wise they have a lot less talent than the Sabres). Hard work, constant effort, give it your all every night, do whatever it takes. Probably more like lunch bucket Ted Nolan hockey than what Granato's doing but perhaps less emphasis on development of individuals (although they are also playing what kids they have). 

Seattle on the other hand seems to think they can start winning now. They added veteran talent and can now score. defense and goaltending still lacking so we shall see how that plays out. 

3 teams perhaps starting from scratch with 3 different pathways. Will be interesting to see who does the best. 

(Ottawa, Detroit and NJ could be in this conversation but I don't know enough about them to say)

[Doohicksie]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

imo teaching WINNING first and that LOSING IS UNACCEPTABLE is a huge part of cementing that culture in place. 

That's never been Granato's philosophy.  It's always been if you play the right way, the results will come.  If you disagree with that you'll never be happy with Granato.

I think the corollary from Donny's perspective is, if you play the right way you will eventually learn that winning comes first and losing is unacceptable, but telling someone that won't be as powerful as if they take that on themselves.

In a way, "If you play the right way, the results will come" is a logical equivalent to McDemott's "Trust the process."  There is an element of trust in the method of playing the right way.

It's hard because we see the Bills over that hump but the Sabres are still looking up.  I think it's critical to stay the course though rather than looking for quick but possibly temporary fixes.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Doohickie

[triumph_communes]

At the seasons end if we ended up two points out of the playoffs, we already have evidence to point back to games where we had defense injuries (out of coaches control) but then also decided to bench Asplund. I know Granato is setting himself up with management to be blameless in that situation, but will the players themselves think of it that way?  Or will he lose the team over the summer because none of his arbitrary were learning nonsense matters as they’re sitting on their couch watching the playoffs.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

That's never been Granato's philosophy.  It's always been if you play the right way, the results will come.  If you disagree with that you'll never be happy with Granato.

I think the corollary from Donny's perspective is, if you play the right way you will eventually learn that winning comes first and losing is unacceptable, but telling someone that won't be as powerful as if they take that on themselves.

In a way, "If you play the right way, the results will come" is a logical equivalent to McDemott's "Trust the process."  There is an element of trust in the method of playing the right way.

It's hard because we see the Bills over that hump but the Sabres are still looking up.  I think it's critical to stay the course though rather than looking for quick but possibly temporary fixes.

It is quite possible I never will be 100% happy with Granato, that is true. I also see a scenario where Granato takes them to a level but it'll be another guy who comes in to take them over the top. 

I'm still not sure what "the right way" is for this team. There is more than one "right way" and it's always all about the team being a team but that's maybe an argument for when we make the playoffs. The Bills don't matter to me at all personally so that isn't hard for me either. I barely watch football at all any more and although I did watch some Bills games in my youth because of local blackouts in those days (Miami Buffalo games were memorable back then)I have zero concern whether they win or lose. Sabres to me are VERY different in terms of build and identity and just about everything but I'm sure some local fans would prefer to make these comparisons. 

I guess what I see as a possibility, one that I want to avoid, is the Sabres becoming the Leafs. A highly skilled and talented team that lacks the desire and whatever else you want to call it to give it their all and win the big games. Time will tell. 

[Stoner]

See also security: job.

 

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Just think how they'd do with one or two more.

Any team that loses three of their top six blue liners is going to have issues with that particular unit. What did you expect? Samuelsson was obviously a big loss. You just do your best to whether the storm until you get some of your injured players back. I just don't see the GM giving up any assets for temporary pedestrian replacements when the expectation is that all three injured players will be back this season, with two of them, Lybushkin and Joki, coming back in the not-too-distant future. 

[Doohicksie]

And the Sabres already have "pedestrian replacements" that they signed in the offseason for the AHL. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Any team that loses three of their top six blue liners is going to have issues with that particular unit. What did you expect? Samuelsson was obviously a big loss. You just do your best to whether the storm until you get some of your injured players back. I just don't see the GM giving up any assets for temporary pedestrian replacements when the expectation is that all three injured players will be back this season, with two of them, Lybushkin and Joki, coming back in the not-too-distant future. 

Yes most team's depth would be tested, but that isn't an excuse to not try to improve the situation.  Teams move 4th and 5th rd picks for depth NHLers all the time.  Remember the Scandella for a 4th trade?  The Bear trade was for a 5th rd pick I believe.  Those picks have about a 15% chance of playing in the NHL 3-5 from when drafted.  Your not exactly giving up much on an asset.  Also that asset can be recovered at the trade deadline if necessary.