Official Sabres to Retire Ryan Miller’s Number on January 19, 2023

[Claude Balls]

On 6/10/2022 at 12:44 PM, LGR4GM said:

This franchise is still a joke. 

Losers retire jerseys of anyone who was halfway decent and played there. Guy played more years on other teams, never won anything in Buffalo, and retired as a member of another team... 

The Sabres "oooo golly we were kinda good when he was here! Gotta retire another number" 

***** joke of a franchise. At least Hasek was the best ever. 

Wanna know how to retire jerseys? Look at Detroit because Buffalo is a free for all joke.

Miller played 12 years with the Sabres and 7 with other teams. He has the second most wins of any other American goaltender. I thought you knew hockey? Apparently it's the prospects you know about. And you miss on a lot of those too. Smh

Edited June 11, 2022 by Claude Balls

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, Claude Balls said:

Miller played 12 years with the Sabres and 7 with other teams. He has the second most wins of any other American goaltender. I thought you knew hockey? Apparently it's the prospects you know about. And you miss on a lot of those too. Smh

11 technically if we count his 3 game season, 15 game rookie year, and the season he was traded. But hey, you were just in a rush to bully and insult me for a take you don't agree with. I get it. 

Edit: He played parts of 8 seasons with other teams not 7. Just wanted to make sure we get the count right. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by LGR4GM

[Eleven]

44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

11 technically if we count his 3 game season, 15 game rookie year, and the season he was traded. But hey, you were just in a rush to bully and insult me for a take you don't agree with. I get it. 

Edit: He played parts of 8 seasons with other teams not 7. Just wanted to make sure we get the count right. 

Your point, which also is mine, stands regardless.  Number retirement shouldn't be so cheap.

[dudacek]

11 hours ago, Eleven said:

Your point, which also is mine, stands regardless.  Number retirement shouldn't be so cheap.

Agree with you, but for the sake of conversation:

Miller is the 7th player to get his number retired (Horton is a special case), the franchise has been around more than 50 years and more than 600 players have worn the crest.

Is it really cheap when someone comes along once every 8 years, or out of every 100 players?

****

Also, if Miller made the Hall of Fame would it change your mind? 

It’s not impossible. There are 36 goalies in the hall. Miller is 14th all-time in wins and 3 of the guys ahead of him are of his vintage and not there (yet?): Fleury, Lundqvist and Luongo. Luongo and Lundqvist are the only ones ahead of him with better career save percentages.

Guys like Rogie Vachon, Tony Esposito and Ed Giacomin are in.

Edited June 12, 2022 by dudacek

[Weave]

I’m torn on Miller’s number being retired.  
 

I agree the bar should be at the 11 & 39 level.  And not at the Gare level or LaFontaine tenure level.
 

Honest question that I’d like to see debated here……. Is Miller’s legacy terribly different that Perreault’s?  Elite, sometimes great talent.  A handful of seasons as a top 2 or 3 at their position.  Long term with the team.  Success, but never quite putting it all together.

Id suggest that Perreault and Miller were similarly flawed, and closer than I’d previously considered in terms of performance relative to the league at the time.

Would like to see the arguments here for and against the idea that these two legacies aren’t terribly different.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Honest question that I’d like to see debated here……. Is Miller’s legacy terribly different that Perreault’s?  Elite, sometimes great talent.  A handful of seasons as a top 2 or 3 at their position.  Long term with the team.  Success, but never quite putting it all together.

Id suggest that Perreault and Miller were similarly flawed, and closer than I’d previously considered in terms of performance relative to the league at the time.

Would like to see the arguments here for and against the idea that these two legacies aren’t terribly different.

Every Sabre great has had a similar legacy, if a key metric is failing to win a SC championship.

I can’t see the 2 players as similar because of the way in which I see them putting their careers together.

Relative to his peers, Perreault was a bit of a freak — so physically superior. He was the FOA pick for good reason. He probably didn’t think the game as much as he could have as a result. But man he galloped and walloped through the league for a long time. 500 goals! Also, he came from an era where what it meant to be a pro athlete was still evolving.

Miller, otoh, was a physically sub average physical specimen relative to his peers. Scrawny. Late round flyer. Through hyper intense focus and training, the guy became an elite player (for a stretch of time) and carved out a great career.

More is illuminated by their differences than their similarities.

Edited June 12, 2022 by That Aud Smell

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Every Sabre great has had a similar legacy, if a key metric is failing to win a SC championship.

I can’t see the 2 players as similar because of the way in which I see them putting their careers together.

Relative to his peers, Perreault was a bit of a freak — so physically superior. He was the FOA pick for good reason. He probably didn’t think the game as much as he could have as a result. But man he galloped and walloped through the league for a long time. 500 goals! Also, he came from an era where what it meant to be a pro athlete was still evolving.

Miller, otoh, was a physically sub average physical specimen relative to his peers. Scrawny. Late round flyer. Through hyper intense focus and training, the guy became an elite player (for a stretch of time) and carved out a great career.

More is illuminated by their differences than their similarities.

You are talking more about their physical gifts.  I am talking more about their impact on the Sabres, impact on the league, and where they stood relative to their peers.  Are the differences that noticeable?

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Every Sabre great has had a similar legacy, if a key metric is failing to win a SC championship.

I can’t see the 2 players as similar because of the way in which I see them putting their careers together.

Relative to his peers, Perreault was a bit of a freak — so physically superior. He was the FOA pick for good reason. He probably didn’t think the game as much as he could have as a result. But man he galloped and walloped through the league for a long time. 500 goals! Also, he came from an era where what it meant to be a pro athlete was still evolving.

Miller, otoh, was a physically sub average physical specimen relative to his peers. Scrawny. Late round flyer. Through hyper intense focus and training, the guy became an elite player (for a stretch of time) and carved out a great career.

More is illuminated by their differences than their similarities.

Miller’s 14th all-time in wins is certainly comparable to Perreault’s 37th all-time in goals.

Miller was voted the best goalie in the game once, Perreault the 2nd-best centre twice.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

You are talking more about their physical gifts.  I am talking more about their impact on the Sabres, impact on the league, and where they stood relative to their peers.  Are the differences that noticeable?

• Perreault in his prime was generally acknowledged around the league as one of the best forwards in the game, maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation - a franchise centre.
• Miller in his prime was generally acknowledged around the league as one of the best stoppers in the game, maybe not the best, but certainly in the conversation - a franchise goalie.
• Perreault was captain, but was a bit of reluctant leader, he more or less had it foisted on him due to talent and tenure.
• As a goalie, Miller could never be captain, but was clearly a leader, probably the leader post-Drury/Briere.
• Perreault leads all skaters in games played.
• Miller leads all goalies in games played.
• Perreault was dutiful out in the community and carried himself properly, but never was a vocal “torch carrier” or community service icon for the Sabres.
• Miller spearheaded notable charity efforts in Buffalo and speaks glowingly of it at every opportunity.
• Perreault requested a trade but never got traded.
• Miller literally cried when he got traded.
• Each was the centrepiece of some of the very best Sabre teams of all-time but fell short of the ultimate prize.
• Each shined and was a source of pride to Buffalo in international competition.

You may be on to something here Weave. Moreso than many would like to admit.

Edited June 12, 2022 by dudacek

[SDS]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

Is it really cheap when someone comes along once every 8 years, or out of every 100 players?

Without knowing who the players are, that sounds like waaaay too many. 

[dudacek]

Here’s an interesting exercise, hardly scientific, but I can use this shorthand and everyone on here and probably around the league knows what I’m talking about.

“The French Connection-era Sabres”

”The Scotty Bowman-era Sabres”

”The Lafontaine/Mogilny-era Sabres”

”The Hasek-era Sabres”

”The Ryan Miller-era Sabres”

“The Tank-era Sabres”

People would get the Briere/Drury era Sabres, but you’re really talking about 2 years. Or the May/Ray/Barnaby era Sabres, where the namesake players weren’t good. Or the Eichel-era Sabres, which we’d all rather forget.

[Eleven]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

Honest question that I’d like to see debated here……. Is Miller’s legacy terribly different that Perreault’s?  Elite, sometimes great talent.  A handful of seasons as a top 2 or 3 at their position.  Long term with the team.  Success, but never quite putting it all together.

 

Perreault was arguably the best player in the league at a point in his career (Sports Illustrated certainly thought so).  Hasek definitely was.  Miller never was.  And I like Ryan Miller an awful lot.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Eleven

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Perreault was arguably the best player in the league at a point in his career (Sports Illustrated certainly thought so).  Hasek definitely was.  Miller never was.  And I like Ryan Miller an awful lot.

At what point was that?

I struggle to see a window where Orr, Lafleur or Gretzky wasnt ahead of him. Then add Esposito, Dionne, Trottier, Bossy, Clarke, Potvin…

Even with my 10-year-old favourite player of all-time glasses on, I don’t see it.

Not familiar with the SI story, but I bet it’s context is only a moment, one that probably correlates quite well to Miller’s Olympic season.

[Eleven]

52 minutes ago, dudacek said:

At what point was that?

I struggle to see a window where Orr, Lafleur or Gretzky wasnt ahead of him. Then add Esposito, Dionne, Trottier, Bossy, Clarke, Potvin…

Even with my 10-year-old favourite player of all-time glasses on, I don’t see it.

Not familiar with the SI story, but I bet it’s context is only a moment, one that probably correlates quite well to Miller’s Olympic season.

The article--which I can't seem to come up with right now--was about how Buffalo arguably--please consider that adverb--had the best player in each of three leagues:  NHL (Perreault), NFL (Simpson), NBA (McAdoo).  So if we triangulate those three, about 1976 or so?

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Perreault was arguably the best player in the league at a point in his career (Sports Illustrated certainly thought so).  Hasek definitely was.  Miller never was.  And I like Ryan Miller an awful lot.

I think Perreault “could have been” the best player in the league for a short time.  Regardless of whatever SI wrote, I think we all know he never did quite reach that pinnacle though. What Perreault had in physical tools he lacked in ambition and will.  What Miller lacked in physical tools he overcame with ambition and will.

I’m not advocating for Miller in the rafters, but I don’t think it is as far away as being discussed here.  He’s more appropriate than, say, Gare or LaFontaine for sure.

I think the drop from Perreault to Miller in terms of impact to the team and overall legacy requires magnification to see.  They’re close.  It’s not lessening the honor to include Miller like it was for some of the names up there.

[That Aud Smell]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

You are talking more about their physical gifts.  I am talking more about their impact on the Sabres, impact on the league, and where they stood relative to their peers.  Are the differences that noticeable?

Fair, fair. Like I said, I was hung up on the idea that their legacies were similar because they never put it all together (won a Cup), and how that’s every Sabre. Then there was how differently they came to their success.

But I get your thesis now much more clearly — and @dudacekmakes a compelling case for how similar they are from a … 15,000 (??) foot view.

[PASabreFan]

18 minutes ago, Eleven said:

The article--which I can't seem to come up with right now--was about how Buffalo arguably--please consider that adverb--had the best player in each of three leagues:  NHL (Perreault), NFL (Simpson), NBA (McAdoo).  So if we triangulate those three, about 1976 or so?

I take it you're not talking about the piece accompanying the cover photo that inspired your avatar.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1973/02/26/43314

[That Aud Smell]

Just now, Weave said:

What Perreault had in physical tools he lacked in ambition and will.  What Miller lacked in physical tools he overcame with ambition and will.

‘S WHATUM SAYIN’!!

Also, more good stuff.

[PASabreFan]

Edit: that was Macadoo's rookie year.

You can scroll through each issue.

Enjoy the afternoon!

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I take it you're not talking about the piece accompanying the cover photo that inspired your avatar.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1973/02/26/43314

I don't think that's the right one, and Josie's avatar drawing came from a skills competition.

[dudacek]

I think there’s a nuance here that can’t be overlooked: what the current Sabres are trying to build.

A band of brothers who care, who fully embrace each other and the community, who leave everything they have out on the ice.

It’s what gets us excited about Cozens and Krebs; it’s why we instantly fell for Tuch.

No one epitomizes that better than Ryan Miller did.

Celebrating who he was and how he handled himself in the presence of this new chapter can’t be anything other than a good thing.

Edited June 12, 2022 by dudacek

[LabattBlue]

3 hours ago, Eleven said:

The article--which I can't seem to come up with right now--was about how Buffalo arguably--please consider that adverb--had the best player in each of three leagues:  NHL (Perreault), NFL (Simpson), NBA (McAdoo).  So if we triangulate those three, about 1976 or so?

There was this book(which I have somewhere and not yet read)…

 

https://a.co/d/82sW7vj

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I think there’s a nuance here that can’t be overlooked: what the current Sabres are trying to build.

A band of brothers who care, who fully embrace each other and the community, who leave everything they have out on the ice.

It’s what gets us excited about Cozens and Krebs; it’s why we instantly fell for Tuch.

No one epitomizes that better than Ryan Miller did.

Celebrating who he was and how he handled himself in the presence of this new chapter can’t be anything other than a good thing.

It’s the sleepy days of June ‘round here (sad face emoji) … don’t sleep on this post, ‘Spacers.

[GoPuckYourself]

How many cups did we win or even get to with Miller? This seems desperate imo but by the looks of it I'm not the majority.

[Skibum]

Not sure I agree with this, as much as I love Ryan Miller. Oh well, congrats to him on a great career - I have bigger problems than this.