Updated Sabres Prospect Pool 2021 and beyond

[Weave]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That’s why in a proper rebuild you don’t begin by bringing in malcontents like Kane, Lehner, COR and ROR when you are trying to build something.  You draft your kids (don’t trade the picks) and you try to surround them with quality professionals and people (like, Gionta, KO or Pominville) to teach them the work they need to succeed.  You need to make sure they are only getting a positive message.  I also don’t think DB and TM were delivering the right message either.

Only Reinhart seemed to rise above it and that could because he always knew what to do coming from a pro hockey family.  

It would also help if any of our GMs and coaches, including the current guys had a clue about roster construction, building real depth and line pairings. That would to much to ask I understand.  I’m still waiting for a proper partner for Dahlin.

Thank you for mansplaining the obvious to me.

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Including ROR in there as a malcontent is so odd. He is currently the captain of the Blues, won the Hart, and was known during his time here to run extra practices. 

However when we acquired him, he and the management of the Avs were at constant odds.  His contract battles went on for 3 years until they finally traded him.  He also set a great leadership example by crashing his truck while drunk into a Tim Hortons.  That’s the ROR we received.  

4 minutes ago, Weave said:

Thank you for mansplaining the obvious to me.

Your welcome.  You’d be surprised by how many here defended TM’s plan.

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

However when we acquired him, he and the management of the Avs were at constant odds.  His contract battles went on for 3 years until they finally traded him.  He also set a great leadership example by crashing his truck while drunk into a Tim Hortons.  That’s the ROR we received.  

Just going to ignore the extra practices and clear leadership role ROR tried to fill on this team? If ROR had been made captain instead of Jack Eichel we would be in a very different spot. 

I DONT GIVE A *****, about a players contract negotiations and that has no bearing on them being a leader. 

[Curt]

16 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

However when we acquired him, he and the management of the Avs were at constant odds.  His contract battles went on for 3 years until they finally traded him.  He also set a great leadership example by crashing his truck while drunk into a Tim Hortons.  That’s the ROR we received.  

Your welcome.  You’d be surprised by how many here defended TM’s plan.

 

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Just going to ignore the extra practices and clear leadership role ROR tried to fill on this team? If ROR had been made captain instead of Jack Eichel we would be in a very different spot. 

I DONT GIVE A *****, about a players contract negotiations and that has no bearing on them being a leader. 

Humans are complex and not binary.  You can both be right.  ROR was a good example of hard work, the right way to play, and what a player can do to maximize their potential, but also a bad example of how to have a harmonious relationship with management and how to not drink+drive.

[Weave]

21 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Your welcome.  You’d be surprised by how many here defended TM’s plan.

I seriously doubt his plan was “add malcontents and dirtbags”.  I’m certain it was, support kids with high end veterans.

Choices, not plan, was his downfall.  I suppose he gravitated towards his own kind.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

I seriously doubt his plan was “add malcontents and dirtbags”.  I’m certain it was, support kids with high end veterans.

Choices, not plan, was his downfall.  I suppose he gravitated towards his own kind.

Good call.

I think Adams is gravitating to his.

[Flashsabre]

ROR is a complex case. He was everything you wanted on the ice.  But the Tim Horton’s incident cost him the C, his brother brought a lot of drama and his “lost his love of the game” comment was strategic.

St. Louis was a perfectly built team for him to succeed and he has. Hats off to him. The return on that trade will always tint people’s views even with Tage developing and Johnson looking promising.

You know you have done an awful job of team building when ROR and Eichel are your top centres and you finish last.

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That’s why in a proper rebuild you don’t begin by bringing in malcontents like Kane, Lehner, COR and ROR when you are trying to build something.  You draft your kids (don’t trade the picks) and you try to surround them with quality professionals and people (like, Gionta, KO or Pominville) to teach them the work they need to succeed.  You need to make sure they are only getting a positive message.  I also don’t think DB and TM were delivering the right message either.

Only Reinhart seemed to rise above it and that could because he always knew what to do coming from a pro hockey family.  

It would also help if any of our GMs and coaches, including the current guys had a clue about roster construction, building real depth and line pairings. That would to much to ask I understand.  I’m still waiting for a proper partner for Dahlin.

They don't even have a spare right shot D in case of injury, so it's a tough mountain to climb

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

However when we acquired him, he and the management of the Avs were at constant odds.  His contract battles went on for 3 years until they finally traded him.  He also set a great leadership example by crashing his truck while drunk into a Tim Hortons.  That’s the ROR we received.  

Your welcome.  You’d be surprised by how many here defended TM’s plan.

I still contend it's more on Murray's execution, than the plan itself. ROR was a REALLY GOOD PLAYER to add. He effed up with Kane and Lehner. 

[Thorny]

53 minutes ago, Weave said:

I seriously doubt his plan was “add malcontents and dirtbags”.  I’m certain it was, support kids with high end veterans.

Choices, not plan, was his downfall.  I suppose he gravitated towards his own kind.

100. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Just going to ignore the extra practices and clear leadership role ROR tried to fill on this team? If ROR had been made captain instead of Jack Eichel we would be in a very different spot. 

I DONT GIVE A *****, about a players contract negotiations and that has no bearing on them being a leader. 

Your giving him to much credit.  He may have worked hard but his leadership was lacking here.

2 hours ago, Weave said:

I seriously doubt his plan was “add malcontents and dirtbags”.  I’m certain it was, support kids with high end veterans.

Choices, not plan, was his downfall.  I suppose he gravitated towards his own kind.

I can accept that to a certain extent, but the plan was also hopelessly flawed.  He traded away the depth he needed.

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Good call.

I think Adams is gravitating to his.

Not really, he's hiring qualified people. 🙂

Edited November 10, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

They don't even have a spare right shot D in case of injury, so it's a tough mountain to climb

I still contend it's more on Murray's execution, than the plan itself. ROR was a REALLY GOOD PLAYER to add. He effed up with Kane and Lehner. 

The plan was hopelessly flawed.  He traded away all the organizations depth to get "his guys" and therefore never was able to build a complete team.  That's a failed plan both is design and execution.

The only real way to build a team is to draft well. build a core group and once it's moving forward then you add vets to fill holes.  

Contrast what TM did to what KA seems to be doing.  Both stripped the team down and both built large draft capital.  However TM traded away top picks in a deep draft plus guys like Armia, Pysyk, Compher, McNabb, Zadorov, and Lemieux, to get his guys.  Now the Sabres are starting over and have another group of kids (a group I like better then TM's pipeline), but instead of trading them and his picks, KA has stated he plans to keep them and let them develop.  KA even brought in a prospect center and goaltender to add to the quality of the pipeline.  This is a much more farsighted approach and one I think actually has a chance of succeeding. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The plan was hopelessly flawed.  He traded away all the organizations depth to get "his guys" and therefore never was able to build a complete team.  That's a failed plan both is design and execution.

The only real way to build a team is to draft well. build a core group and once it's moving forward then you add vets to fill holes.  

Contrast what TM did to what KA seems to be doing.  Both stripped the team down and both built large draft capital.  However TM traded away top picks in a deep draft plus guys like Armia, Pysyk, Compher, McNabb, Zadorov, and Lemieux, to get his guys.  Now the Sabres are starting over and have another group of kids (a group I like better then TM's pipeline), but instead of trading them and his picks, KA has stated he plans to keep them and let them develop.  KA even brought in a prospect center and goaltender to add to the quality of the pipeline.  This is a much more farsighted approach and one I think actually has a chance of succeeding. 

This actually comes up a lot even since I spent a good while doing all that draft pick research and posted it, but no, he didn't trade away all of the organizations depth. He used more draft picks over his time frame than the standard 21 picks a team has as it's base. He traded picks, because accumulated a massive amount during the build - the objective was always to use some as currency. 

Still think it was a problem of execution 

The depth players he traded were easily parted with for guys like ROR, less so for guys like Kane. Problem identifying the right guys. I don't think a good GM would be worse off for trading the picks, and players we did, if the analysis had been better. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

41 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This actually comes up a lot even since I spent a good while doing all that draft pick research and posted it, but no, he didn't trade away all of the organizations depth. He used more draft picks over his time frame than the standard 21 picks a team has as it's base. He traded picks, because accumulated a massive amount during the build - the objective was always to use some as currency. 

Still think it was a problem of execution 

Yes he made 3 extra picks for the 3 years.  His acquired picks gave us 2 2nds (Cornel & Karabacek - both busts), a 3rd (Martin - Bust), a 5th (Budik - Bust)  and a 7th (Glotov - Bust).  But he traded away 2 1sts, a a 31st pick, another 2nds in 2015, a 3rd in 2015 and a 4th in 2014.  The sacrificing of the high picks in 2015 is really the where plan went wrong.

Those 3 picks in 2015 with some luck could have yielded 3 of Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic, Beauvillier, Aho, and Carlo.  The 44th pick that year which he traded back to LA yielded Cernak.  

Had he just been more patient and used all his draft capital, this could have been a very different story. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes he made 3 extra picks for the 3 years.  His acquired picks gave us 2 2nds (Cornel & Karabacek - both busts), a 3rd (Martin - Bust), a 5th (Budik - Bust)  and a 7th (Glotov - Bust).  But he traded away 2sts, a a 31st pick, another 2nds in 2015, a 3rd in 2015 and a 4th in 2014.  The sacrificing of the high picks in 2015 is really the where plan went wrong.

Those 3 picks in 2015 with some luck could have yielded 3 of Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic, Beauvillier, Aho, and Carlo.  The 44th pick that year which he traded back to LA yielded Cernak.  

Had he just been more patient and used all his draft capital, this could have been a very different story. 

The fact you point to all of the good players we COULD have picked, after highlighting how badly he botched the picks he DID have, kinda proves my argument, no?

I struggle to see him making the "correct" picks if we even had them. 

Execution. 

[Weave]

And the team still needed a foundation of good, playoff tested vets whether we used all those picks or not.  Hos failure was in scouting, not the plan.

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The fact you point to all of the good players we COULD have picked, after highlighting how badly he botched the picks he DID have, kinda proves my argument, no?

I struggle to see him making the "correct" picks if we even had them. 

Execution. 

The backend of the 1st rd that year was so good even he would have picked at least one or two right, but you can't draft what you trade away.  Everyone knew going into 2015 that it was one of the deepest drafts in years.  He traded the 1sts to get Kane and Lehner who were both injured when acquired.  Call it execution if you want, but who gives up critical draft capital in the deepest draft in years for two injured players?  That just a dumb plan coupled with incompetence.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The backend of the 1st rd that year was so good even he would have picked at least one or two right, but you can't draft what you trade away.  Everyone knew going into 2015 that it was one of the deepest drafts in years.  He traded the 1sts to get Kane and Lehner who were both injured when acquired.  Call it execution if you want, but who gives up critical draft capital in the deepest draft in years for two injured players?  That just a dumb plan coupled with incompetence.

I do agree with you there, I would have kept the firsts. 

More so though was referring to picks being dealt, at all. I think we should expect to see some used as currency. Could be wrong. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I do agree with you there, I would have kept the firsts. 

More so though was referring to picks being dealt, at all. I think we should expect to see some used as currency. Could be wrong. 

Of course you would have kept the 1sts and that's the point.  We were trying to rebuild a strong franchise, not a 2 year wonder that had no staying power.  The way you build a strong foundation is draft and develop.  TM's plan was to take a 5 year process and somehow get it done in 2-3 years.  It just doesn't work like that.  

Edited November 10, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Of course you would have kept the 1sts and that's the point.  We were trying to rebuild a strong franchise, not a 2 year wonder that had no staying power.  They way you build a strong foundation is draft and develop.

 

3 hours ago, Weave said:

Thank you for mansplaining the obvious to me.

😝

[dudacek]

Probably not the right thread, but weird things happening to the top of 2019 draft class early this year.

A number of highly-forwards beyond Dylan Cozens have disappointing production, the top 2 D have been amazing.

NHL

6) Seider 2/9/11

4) Byrum 3/5/8

3) Dach 2/3/5

9) Zegras 2/3/5

7) Cozens 1/4/5

1) Hughes 2/1/3 (inj)

10) Podkolzin 3/0/3

15) Caufield 0/1/1

12) Boldy 0/0/0 (inj)

17) Krebs 0/0/0

2) Kakko 0/0/0

11)Soderstrom 0/0/0

AHL

16) Newhook 4/7/11

5) Turcotte 3/4/7

8 Broberg 0/6/6

14) York 1/3/4

 

 

[Norcal]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Probably not the right thread, but weird things happening to the top of 2019 draft class early this year.

A number of highly-forwards beyond Dylan Cozens have disappointing production, the top 2 D have been amazing.

NHL

6) Seider 2/9/11

4) Byrum 3/5/8

3) Dach 2/3/5

9) Zegras 2/3/5

7) Cozens 1/4/5

1) Hughes 2/1/3 (inj)

10) Podkolzin 3/0/3

15) Caufield 0/1/1

12) Boldy 0/0/0 (inj)

17) Krebs 0/0/0

2) Kakko 0/0/0

11)Soderstrom 0/0/0

AHL

16) Newhook 4/7/11

5) Turcotte 3/4/7

8 Broberg 0/6/6

14) York 1/3/4

 

 

It's nitpicky but Krebs does have 6 pts in the ahl 0/6/6

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, Norcal said:

It's nitpicky but Krebs does have 6 pts in the ahl 0/6/6

Yep, Caufield has couple as well, but they've each spent the bulk of the year in the NHL.

What is amazing to me is how a re-ranking of the forwards would still be wide open.

Cozens and Krebs could still easily become the two best forwards of this entire class, or total busts. No one has established themselves yet.

Edited November 11, 2021 by dudacek

[dudacek]

Wheeler from the Athletic has his projected WJC rosters out and he’s calling for 4 Sabre participants:

• Power 1LD Canada
• Rosen 2LW Sweden
• Poltapov 4RW Russia
• Novikov 3LD Russia

Only notable omission is Kisakov, who is mentioned as an extra. Interestingly, Wheeler says the Russian picks reflect less what he would pick, and more who he thinks will be picked, because Russian politics. He also says 7th-rounder Novikov is almost a sure thing.

https://theathletic.com/2938691/2021/11/11/world-junior-2022-roster-projections-scott-wheeler-picks-the-teams-and-medals/

[GASabresIUFAN]

Novikov is taking a regular shift in the KHL and is effective.  That’s pretty amazing and it’s why he is a lock for the team.  Our two Russian wingers have had a cup of coffee in the K but have yet to score there.  

[Thorny]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

Yep, Caufield has couple as well, but they've each spent the bulk of the year in the NHL.

What is amazing to me is how a re-ranking of the forwards would still be wide open.

Cozens and Krebs could still easily become the two best forwards of this entire class, or total busts. No one has established themselves yet.

Except Caufield as an indisputable Bust.