2021-22 Sabres 1C

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No matter what happens we’ll “lose” an Eichel trade because the team that trades away the better player always loses the deal but that doesn’t mean we can’t get better by making the trade.  Carolina traded us Skinner for Pu and got better.  Colorado traded ROR to us and got better.  It depends on what else we do and how the kids develop.  
 

We were better last year without Eichel. Trade Eichel for Matt Tkachuk, get goaltending, keep Reinhart and we will be better.

Would we have been better without the guy who finished 8th in MVP voting the year before?

[Thorny]

Also, the Sabres played at a better point pace this season with Eichel in the lineup 

15 points earned in the 21 games he played (.357), 22 points in the 35 he didn't (.314)

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Would we have been better without the guy who finished 8th in MVP voting the year before?

What?  We traded away the better player and lost the trade.  Which is exactly what I said.  The only way you improve when you make such a trade is make other good moves and also have your kids improve also as I wrote above. Jbot failed to make the necessary other moves and failed because of it.  Who cares how ROR did with St Louis.  We all knew we wouldn’t go forward when Jbot didn’t properly replace him.

 

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Also, the Sabres played at a better point pace this season with Eichel in the lineup 

15 points earned in the 21 games he played (.357), 22 points in the 35 he didn't (.314)

What?  Ullmark was in net.  When he was the goalie under RK we were on pace for 96 pts.  Under Granato and with Ullmark we played at a 108 pt pace.  Nice try.

Edited May 18, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What?  We traded away the better player and lost the trade.  Which is exactly what I said.  The only way you improve when you make such a trade is make other good moves and also have your kids improve also as I wrote above. Jbot failed to make the necessary other moves and failed because of it.  Who cares how ROR did with St Louis.  We all knew we wouldn’t go forward when Jbot didn’t properly replace him.

 

I'm talking about Jack. You said we were "better without Jack last year", and not only is that not even close to true when you pick out a normal year (when Jack wasn't hurt), it wasn't even true this season, as I just laid out. We were not "better without Jack"

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What?  We traded away the better player and lost the trade.  Which is exactly what I said.  The only way you improve when you make such a trade is make other good moves and also have your kids improve also as I wrote above. Jbot failed to make the necessary other moves and failed because of it.  Who cares how ROR did with St Louis.  We all knew we wouldn’t go forward when Jbot didn’t properly replace him.

 

What?  Ullmark was in net.  When he was the goalie under RK we were on pace for 96 pts.  Under Granato and with Ullmark we played at a 108 pt pace.  Nice try.

You can't just select the variables you want and leave out the ones you like and pick the sample size that specifically fits the point you want to make. Ludicrous. 

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

You can't just select the variables you want and leave out the ones you like and pick the sample size that specifically fits the point you want to make. Ludicrous. 

I don’t understand.  Is this not still the internet?

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You can't just select the variables you want and leave out the ones you like and pick the sample size that specifically fits the point you want to make. Ludicrous. 

[Crusader1969]

23 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Hard pass on Monahan. 

I can see Calgary wanting to move on from him and he'd be a stopgap for the Sabres...unless he finds his 80point per season form

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

I can see Calgary wanting to move on from him and he'd be a stopgap for the Sabres...unless he finds his 80point per season form

His salary and production are not worth it and agreeing to take Him will decrease the return of good assets for Eichel or Reinhart 

[Huckleberry]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:32 PM, LGR4GM said:

ROR was a better player when we traded him and proceeded to immediately win a cup and be the best player on his team. 

in the actualy final yes, first two rounds he got bumped down to bottom 6 minutes for sucking.   

[Trettioåtta]

29 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

in the actualy final yes, first two rounds he got bumped down to bottom 6 minutes for sucking.   

Round 1: 6 games - TOI 130:11 = 21.69 mins per game (1 OT period). 4 points

Round 2: 7 games - TOI 160:08 = 22.87 mins per game (2 OT periods). 5 points

Round 3: 6 games - TOI 116:47 = 19.41 mins per game (1 OT period). 5 points

Round 4: 7 games - TOI 139:03 = 19.56 mins per game (1 OT period). 9 points

[Huckleberry]

8 minutes ago, Trettioåtta said:

Round 1: 6 games - TOI 130:11 = 21.69 mins per game (1 OT period). 4 points

Round 2: 7 games - TOI 160:08 = 22.87 mins per game (2 OT periods). 5 points

Round 3: 6 games - TOI 116:47 = 19.41 mins per game (1 OT period). 5 points

Round 4: 7 games - TOI 139:03 = 19.56 mins per game (1 OT period). 9 points

just going off a what a blues fan told me 😛

[mjd1001]

On 5/18/2021 at 1:27 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

No matter what happens we’ll “lose” an Eichel trade because the team that trades away the better player always loses the deal

Except that isn't true. It often happens that way, but it certainly isn't always the case:

-The Lindros trade.  At the time Philly was getting the 'best player' but in the long run the trade worked out better for the Avs.

-Alexi Yashin Trade.  The Islanders wanted him badly, gave him a huge contract, and the consensus in the hockey world was he was the best player in the deal. What did Ottawa get back?  Charra and a 1st that turned into Jason Spezza.

-Joe Nieuwendyk was traded for a prospect named Jerome Iginla and Corey Miller.  Iginla was considered a good prospect, but Nieuwendyk was the best 'player' in that trade.

-Barry Pederson for Cam Neely AND a draft pick.

-Mike Richards for Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds.  Richards was a young Star (I think 25 years old with close to 30 goals in the 4 previous seasons) in the league at the time, the best player in the trade at the time, but  the Flyers clearly won that trade....even though the Flyers traded away a young 30 goal scoring all-star.

-For the Sabres, when they aquired Brierre, they traded Chris Gratton..who was considered the better player as the Sabres got a higher draft pick back in the deal with it.

-In Football, look no further than the Herschel Walker deal from Dallas.

There are a LOT of other examples, but these are the ones I think of when this topic is brought up.  Is it HARDER to win the trade when you are trading away who is considered the best player? Yes, I will agree with that....but by no means are you guaranteed to lose the trade by trading who is considered the best player in the deal.

If you make a deal and you really, REALLY scout the other teams prospects, and you know who you want and know a player in their system might have more value than the other team even thinks..you can come ahead that way. Of course, that requires a great team of scouts....the Sabres might currently have the worst scouting staff in the league.

Edited May 19, 2021 by mjd1001

[Curt]

52 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

-Alexi Yashin Trade.  The Islanders wanted him badly, gave him a huge contract, and the consensus in the hockey world was he was the best player in the deal. What did Ottawa get back?  Charra and a 1st that turned into Jason Spezza.

I think the Yashin  situation and trade is as good a parallel for the Eichel situation as you can find.  Young top 10 scoring franchise C with some off ice concerns and a fractured relationship with his team.  Traded for a still developing good young player (Chara), the #2 overall pick, who they knew would be Spezza, and an experienced, not very good, bottom 6 forward.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Curt

[Ducky]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Except that isn't true. It often happens that way, but it certainly isn't always the case:

-The Lindros trade.  At the time Philly was getting the 'best player' but in the long run the trade worked out better for the Avs.

-Alexi Yashin Trade.  The Islanders wanted him badly, gave him a huge contract, and the consensus in the hockey world was he was the best player in the deal. What did Ottawa get back?  Charra and a 1st that turned into Jason Spezza.

-Joe Nieuwendyk was traded for a prospect named Jerome Iginla and Corey Miller.  Iginla was considered a good prospect, but Nieuwendyk was the best 'player' in that trade.

-Barry Pederson for Cam Neely AND a draft pick.

-Mike Richards for Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds.  Richards was a young Star (I think 25 years old with close to 30 goals in the 4 previous seasons) in the league at the time, the best player in the trade at the time, but  the Flyers clearly won that trade....even though the Flyers traded away a young 30 goal scoring all-star.

-For the Sabres, when they aquired Brierre, they traded Chris Gratton..who was considered the better player as the Sabres got a higher draft pick back in the deal with it.

-In Football, look no further than the Herschel Walker deal from Dallas.

There are a LOT of other examples, but these are the ones I think of when this topic is brought up.  Is it HARDER to win the trade when you are trading away who is considered the best player? Yes, I will agree with that....but by no means are you guaranteed to lose the trade by trading who is considered the best player in the deal.

If you make a deal and you really, REALLY scout the other teams prospects, and you know who you want and know a player in their system might have more value than the other team even thinks..you can come ahead that way. Of course, that requires a great team of scouts....the Sabres might currently have the worst scouting staff in the league.

Not sure about Philly winning the Richards' trade when he went on to win 2 cups in LA.

Same as the Joe Nieuwendyk trade. Dallas won a cup with him.

It is all about winning the cup.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Ducky

[Claude Balls]

On 5/17/2021 at 1:15 PM, LGR4GM said:

If we do lose Reinhart and Eichel, we should

Sell the f'n team

[Thorny]

13 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Except that isn't true. It often happens that way, but it certainly isn't always the case:

-The Lindros trade.  At the time Philly was getting the 'best player' but in the long run the trade worked out better for the Avs.

-Alexi Yashin Trade.  The Islanders wanted him badly, gave him a huge contract, and the consensus in the hockey world was he was the best player in the deal. What did Ottawa get back?  Charra and a 1st that turned into Jason Spezza.

-Joe Nieuwendyk was traded for a prospect named Jerome Iginla and Corey Miller.  Iginla was considered a good prospect, but Nieuwendyk was the best 'player' in that trade.

-Barry Pederson for Cam Neely AND a draft pick.

-Mike Richards for Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds.  Richards was a young Star (I think 25 years old with close to 30 goals in the 4 previous seasons) in the league at the time, the best player in the trade at the time, but  the Flyers clearly won that trade....even though the Flyers traded away a young 30 goal scoring all-star.

-For the Sabres, when they aquired Brierre, they traded Chris Gratton..who was considered the better player as the Sabres got a higher draft pick back in the deal with it.

-In Football, look no further than the Herschel Walker deal from Dallas.

There are a LOT of other examples, but these are the ones I think of when this topic is brought up.  Is it HARDER to win the trade when you are trading away who is considered the best player? Yes, I will agree with that....but by no means are you guaranteed to lose the trade by trading who is considered the best player in the deal.

If you make a deal and you really, REALLY scout the other teams prospects, and you know who you want and know a player in their system might have more value than the other team even thinks..you can come ahead that way. Of course, that requires a great team of scouts....the Sabres might currently have the worst scouting staff in the league.

I'd give the Kings the edge in the Flyers deal by a fair bit considering the Cups that resulted for LA and the sizeable role Richards played in those 

[Doohickie]

As is the wont of this forum, we have wandered off the original premise of this thread.

When it's all said and done, who do you think will be our 1C next season?

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

As is the wont of this forum, we have wandered off the original premise of this thread.

When it's all said and done, who do you think will be our 1C next season?

Casey Mittelstadt. Kind of funny if you ask me considering what we'd have thought of that coming into the season this year, and because of how much faith we are placing in a small sample size. But I think it'll be him. It could be Eakin on the checking line that gets the most minutes. 

I'd guess we see something like:

Mittelstadt

Cozens

Eakin

Girgensons/FA

 

Outside shot at Reinhart being the 1C or a Lindholm/Monahan 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Thorny

[Doohickie]

Is he ready?  Probably not.  Will it ruin him?  I hope not.

I've made similar assertions, that it will be Casey, in other threads.  If they are truly embracing a youth movement, they will not likely spend their assets (JackSamReino) to get back lesser versions of them.  They will be exchanging them for younger versions of them, i.e., prospects. 

You might want an older center to throw at the wolves if Casey et al are overwhelmed.... thinking someone like David Legwand when he came to the Sabres... but the most recent example of that, Staal, probably sours the management on the concept of getting an experienced center back from the trade to be a 1-2 year stop-gap.

We have Eakin for one more year... throw him to the wolves if need be.

[Doohickie]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Outside shot at Reinhart being the 1C

I think it's more likely that Jack is still here than Reino.  It's too bad because I really like Reino, but unless he's willing to sign a multi-year deal this offseason I think the Reino era in Buffalo is already over.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Is he ready?  Probably not.  Will it ruin him?  I hope not.

I've made similar assertions, that it will be Casey, in other threads.  If they are truly embracing a youth movement, they will not likely spend their assets (JackSamReino) to get back lesser versions of them.  They will be exchanging them for younger versions of them, i.e., prospects. 

You might want an older center to throw at the wolves if Casey et al are overwhelmed.... thinking someone like David Legwand when he came to the Sabres... but the most recent example of that, Staal, probably sours the management on the concept of getting an experienced center back from the trade to be a 1-2 year stop-gap.

We have Eakin for one more year... throw him to the wolves if need be.

Pretty much. We'll see: 22 points is probably the lowest previous season total we've counted on for the projected 1C heading into the following season. If you can get GA on the line I'm sure he'll have the selection parsed so as to tell you how he's actually pacing for 102 points or whatever. 

[dudacek]

21 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Casey Mittelstadt. Kind of funny if you ask me considering what we'd have thought of that coming into the season this year, and because of how much faith we are placing in a small sample size. But I think it'll be him. It could be Eakin on the checking line that gets the most minutes. 

I'd guess we see something like:

Mittelstadt

Cozens

Eakin

Girgensons/FA

 

Outside shot at Reinhart being the 1C or a Lindholm/Monahan 

If use down the stretch means anything (not to mention performance) Cody Eakin will not be centering the Sabres third line next year.

Really, it's a nice litmus test for baseline GM competence if Eakin enters camp any higher than the 5th centre and 13th forward on the depth chart.

You can make an argument for them defaulting to that spot because of his contract/cap.

But the correct move is to keep Sam/Jack/new guy to buttress Casey and Dylan, buy Cody out or bury him in Rochester, and give his spot to Sheahan or another UFA like him.

Pencilling him into the lineup shows you learned nothing.

Edited May 20, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

If use down the stretch means anything (not to mention performance) Cody Eakin will not be centering the Sabres third line next year.

Really, it's a nice litmus test for baseline GM competence if Eakin enters camp any higher than the 5th centre and 13th forward on the depth chart.

You can make an argument for them defaulting to that spot because of his contract/cap.

But the correct move is to keep Sam/Jack/new guy to buttress Casey and Dylan, buy Cody out or bury him in Rochester, and give his spot to Sheahan or another UFA like him.

love it

[Doohickie]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

If use down the stretch means anything (not to mention performance) Cody Eakin will not be centering the Sabres third line next year.

Really, it's a nice litmus test for baseline GM competence if Eakin enters camp any higher than the 5th centre and 13th forward on the depth chart.

You can make an argument for them defaulting to that spot because of his contract/cap.

But the correct move is to keep Sam/Jack/new guy to buttress Casey and Dylan, buy Cody out or bury him in Rochester, and give his spot to Sheahan or another UFA like him.

Yeah, Sheahan is more effective that Eakin for sure.  Eakin has slipped to embarrassment status.