Sabres clinch last place...or did they?

[PromoTheRobot]

12 minutes ago, Mustache of God said:

At what point do the Pegulas have a moment of self reflection and say to themselves, "maybe this isn't working?".

And then what? Sell to the next benevolent billionaire who wants to spend lavishly on a small market team just to make its long suffering fans happy?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Mustache of God said:

At what point do the Pegulas have a moment of self reflection and say to themselves, "maybe this isn't working?".

The day they fired RK.

I may be in the minority here, but this season may have been the best thing to happen to this franchise since the Pegulas took over.  

1) the worst coach ever was removed.

2) Our weakness in goal was made so clear that even a GM as incompetent as KA understands the problems

3) The strategy of continuing adding "proven" vets to fix all the roster issues is finally over.  Gone are (or soon will be) Staal, Hall, Rieder, Sheahan, Hutton, Irwin, and hopefully Eakin. (aka basically everyone KA added to this roster last off-season).  

4) Our pipelines was finally deep enough to field a team of our prospects and once injuries and trades cleaned out the vets, the kids played bigger roles and the team improved setting the course going forward. 7 rookies appeared this year.  Key prospects like Bryson, Mitts, R2, Asplund, Thompson and Cozens earned permanent jobs.

5) Because of all the kids at forward and defense, KA really doesn't have to do much but solve the goaltending and re-sign the RFAs and two internal UFAs to field a solid young team next season.  This will save him from himself.  It's not a complete roster, but it's close and instead of needing wholesale changes all we really need is a physical middle six winger, a 4C, and possibly one or two defensive D (plus goalies).  The D are solved by keeping Borgen and McCabe and 50% of the goalie issue is solved by re-signing Ullmark.  This is an off-season that even KA should be able to handle with Karmanos' help.

Bottomline we are finally playing a proper rebuild team with our guys and they should grow from here.  Further good news is more talent is one the way.  Laaksonen, Johnson, UPL, Murray, Quinn, JJP, and this year's top pick are already getting call ups or are tracking toward the NHL sooner then later.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Mike Honcho said:

man, what a season. i have to say, i love hockey more than any sport. this sabres team has brought me completely disinterested in all hockey. that hasnt happened to me since hasek got traded. 

i also follow the wild, which are doing amazing this year, but they are on the west, so the games are too late for me to watch. 

i wonder if its not time for me to stop "also" following the wild, and "only" follow the wild (once they get out of the west)

 

 

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Used to catch nearly all the games that were available and once having CI would watch games at least 4, if not 5, nights/ week.

10 years into this run have watched CI maybe 5 times all season.  Don't really have a desire to watch any of the playoffs.  Signed up for the Amerks TV package & definitely watched less than 10 of their games. 

NEVER thought there was any way to end up this blase about it all.  Can't even begin to imagine how many casual fans this team has turned off courtesy of a bad idea from 8 years ago that had even poorer implementation.

Welcome to my world.  Except I had a 7 yr start on you all.

28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The day they fired RK.

I may be in the minority here, but this season may have been the best thing to happen to this franchise since the Pegulas took over.  

1) the worst coach ever was removed.

2) Our weakness in goal was made so clear that even a GM as incompetent as KA understands the problems

3) The strategy of continuing adding "proven" vets to fix all the roster issues is finally over.  Gone are (or soon will be) Staal, Hall, Rieder, Sheahan, Hutton, Irwin, and hopefully Eakin. (aka basically everyone KA added to this roster last off-season).  

4) Our pipelines was finally deep enough to field a team of our prospects and once injuries and trades cleaned out the vets, the kids played bigger roles and the team improved setting the course going forward. 7 rookies appeared this year.  Key prospects like Bryson, Mitts, R2, Asplund, Thompson and Cozens earned permanent jobs.

5) Because of all the kids at forward and defense, KA really doesn't have to do much but solve the goaltending and re-sign the RFAs and two internal UFAs to field a solid young team next season.  This will save him from himself.  It's not a complete roster, but it's close and instead of needing wholesale changes all we really need is a physical middle six winger, a 4C, and possibly one or two defensive D (plus goalies).  The D are solved by keeping Borgen and McCabe and 50% of the goalie issue is solved by re-signing Ullmark.  This is an off-season that even KA should be able to handle with Karmanos' help.

Bottomline we are finally playing a proper rebuild team with our guys and they should grow from here.  Further good news is more talent is one the way.  Laaksonen, Johnson, UPL, Murray, Quinn, JJP, and this year's top pick are already getting call ups or are tracking toward the NHL sooner then later.

The team did not improve with the kids.  The only difference was the losses were more entertaining.  That won’t sustain beyond 10 games in a full season.

[Thorny]

13 hours ago, #freejame said:

55 point pace. Would be our 6th worst ever. A loss on Saturday can give us a tie for bottom five.  A 37 point increase is the greatest season over season increase in Sabres history. 92 points was good for 16th in the league in 2018-2019, but would have missed the playoffs in the east by 6 points. 21 more wins and 1 more OTL should be the goal for next season. Why the hell not?

Unfortunately I'd say there is little chance of bumping up 43 points, 6 more than the Sabres record, if we truly are a 55 point team. Let's just say what we've seen under Granato represents a fair "base", in that we won't be hiring a non-coach again. 

In that case, our pace looks more like about 64 points over 82. 94-96 could get in - a 30 point jump while still massive at least seems possible

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

 

Welcome to my world.  Except I had a 7 yr start on you all.

The team did not improve with the kids.  The only difference was the losses were more entertaining.  That won’t sustain beyond 10 games in a full season.

I think it improved sans Ralph, though. 

Just not a ton. 

[#freejame]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Unfortunately I'd say there is little chance of bumping up 43 points, 6 more than the Sabres record, if we truly are a 55 point team. Let's just say what we've seen under Granato represents a fair "base", in that we won't be hiring a non-coach again. 

In that case, our pace looks more like about 64 points over 82. 94-96 could get in - a 30 point jump while still massive at least seems possible

I don’t think there is much of a chance of it happening, but as they say in Rudy— “having dreams is what makes life tolerable.”

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

 

Welcome to my world.  Except I had a 7 yr start on you all.

The team did not improve with the kids.  The only difference was the losses were more entertaining.  That won’t sustain beyond 10 games in a full season.

That's BS.  This team with all the kids and without Ullmark, Eichel and McCabe, 3 vital players, is 9-10-2 in the last 21 games.  6-24-4 in the first 34. The improvement has lasted more then 10 games, but thanks for playing.  They have survived despite starting goaltenders who were supposed to be in the minor in UPL, Tokaraski and now Houser.  5 of the 9 wins have comes against Bos, NYI (2), Wash and Pitt.  

Goals for over the last 21 games are 3.14 per game.  First 34 games was 2.03.  Even strength goals are even more pronounced.  Had UIlmark stayed healthy the win total would have been even higher.   

This team is still a work in progress but add solid goaltending and you have a very competitive team.  

Edited May 7, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Weave]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That's BS.  This team with all the kids and without Ullmark, Eichel and McCabe, 3 vital players, is 9-10-2 in the last 21 games.  6-24-4 in the first 34. The improvement has lasted more then 10 games, but thanks for playing.  They have survived despite starting goaltenders who were supposed to be in the minor in UPL, Tokaraski and now Houser.  5 of the 9 wins have comes against Bos, NYI (2), Wash and Pitt.  

Goals for over the last 21 games are 3.14 per game.  First 34 games was 2.03.  Even strength goals are even more pronounced.  Had UIlmark stayed healthy the win total would have been even higher.   

This team is still a work in progress but add solid goaltending and you have a very competitive team.  

You’ve had this overwhelming sense of optimism for whatever group of kids  are next in line since we’ve exchanged posts on Letsgosabres.  I’ll give you consistency.  But you’ve been overstating optimism for the kids since  Drury and Briere left.  It’s gotta be a clinical condition because optimism in the face of 10 years of disappointment isn’t normal.

Or maybe you just have lower expectations.

[Thorny]

25 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That's BS.  This team with all the kids and without Ullmark, Eichel and McCabe, 3 vital players, is 9-10-2 in the last 21 games.  6-24-4 in the first 34. The improvement has lasted more then 10 games, but thanks for playing.  They have survived despite starting goaltenders who were supposed to be in the minor in UPL, Tokaraski and now Houser.  5 of the 9 wins have comes against Bos, NYI (2), Wash and Pitt.  

Goals for over the last 21 games are 3.14 per game.  First 34 games was 2.03.  Even strength goals are even more pronounced.  Had UIlmark stayed healthy the win total would have been even higher.   

This team is still a work in progress but add solid goaltending and you have a very competitive team.  

The biggest mistake would be thinking this is all we need

[GASabresIUFAN]

21 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The biggest mistake would be thinking this is all we need

Never said that was all we needed.  Solid goaltending, a tougher middle forward, one maybe 2 defensive D are all on my list for next season.  However instead of needing wholesale changes we finally have a core group of players to build around in Cozens, Jack, Mitts, r2, Reinhart, Bryson, Dahlin, and Joker among others and young depth like Asplund, VO, Thompson, Borgen, Samuelsson etc...   For some reason many here want to continue to wipe the slate clean and start again, again. We have on this board threads to trade Eichel, Reinhart, Mitts, Risto and others and honestly that makes zero sense.  

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Never said that was all we needed.  Solid goaltending, a tougher middle forward, one maybe 2 defensive D are all on my list for next season.  However instead of needing wholesale changes we finally have a core group of players to build around in Cozens, Jack, Mitts, r2, Reinhart, Bryson, Dahlin, and Joker among others and young depth like Asplund, VO, Thompson, Borgen, Samuelsson etc...   For some reason many here want to continue to wipe the slate clean and start again, again. We have on this board threads to trade Eichel, Reinhart, Mitts, Risto and others and honestly that makes zero sense.  

Ya, looks like the T6 forward addition I think we need represents the difference in evaluation. 

[Hoss]

45 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Never said that was all we needed.  Solid goaltending, a tougher middle forward, one maybe 2 defensive D are all on my list for next season.  However instead of needing wholesale changes we finally have a core group of players to build around in Cozens, Jack, Mitts, r2, Reinhart, Bryson, Dahlin, and Joker among others and young depth like Asplund, VO, Thompson, Borgen, Samuelsson etc...   For some reason many here want to continue to wipe the slate clean and start again, again. We have on this board threads to trade Eichel, Reinhart, Mitts, Risto and others and honestly that makes zero sense.  

We need far more than the few middling tweaks you mentioned. You’re not the only fan here to hold this position and I’m not sure how after watching the way this season unfolded.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

We need far more than the few middling tweaks you mentioned. You’re not the only fan here to hold this position and I’m not sure how after watching the way this season unfolded.

No we don't and we don't have to the cap space to make wholesale changes that you and others want.  The only way this team improves is if the kids continue their upward trajectory.   Skinner and KO are 15 mill of dead money.  Jack also gets 10.  Once Dahlin and Reinhart are re-signed we are on the hook for another 12-13 mill.  That means that 5 players, only 3 of which are productive, eat up nearly 50% of the cap with $38 million.  That means we have to add 17 players for about 42 million. 

To accomplish this we can afford to make certain tweaks but the majority of the jobs will go (and should go) to the kids.  Honestly the kids have earned those jobs regardless of cap.  At forward, Mitts has 17 pts in his last 21 games (9g 8a).  Asplund has 11 pts in his 27 games including 7 goals (approx. 33 pts for a full season).  Thompson has 12 points in his last 22 games. R2 has 5 goals in his first 16 NHL games. That's one more then Hall and EIchel combined this season (and they played 58 games between them).  On defense Bryson has chipped in 9 pts in 37 games but is only -1 averaging 19 minutes a night.  Since RK was punted Dahlin is playing at his 40 pt pace and is only -2 in 21 games averaging over 23 minutes a night.  Jokiharju has made a similar turnaround going from 15 minutes a night under RK to 20 and playing better all around hockey in the process.

With Ullmark in net this team was 9-6-3 for the season.  That about a 96 pt pace for a full season.  In 8 games with Granato as HC and the kids playing in front of him, he went 4-2-2 for 10 pts or a 102 pt pace.  

 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

We need far more than the few middling tweaks you mentioned. You’re not the only fan here to hold this position and I’m not sure how after watching the way this season unfolded.

While I agree with your point, the bold is because of the way the season unfolded. COVID, Hutton, injured Eichel, injured Ullmark, injured McCabe, snakebit then listless Hall, terrible Staal and especially Krueger put us into a hole.

Dumping those guys led to a notable improvement. Some of the kids showed us they could play. The team had a playoff-calibre record with Ullmark in goal. A healthy Eichel is about the best upgrade the current team could make. With Eichel and Ullmark, maybe we're not that far away.

Personally, I think we need more, but you can see the argument.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

27 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No we don't and we don't have to the cap space to make wholesale changes that you and others want.  The only way this team improves is if the kids continue their upward trajectory.   Skinner and KO are 15 mill of dead money.  Jack also gets 10.  Once Dahlin and Reinhart are re-signed we are on the hook for another 12-13 mill.  That means that 5 players, only 3 of which are productive, eat up nearly 50% of the cap with $38 million.  That means we have to add 17 players for about 42 million. 

To accomplish this we can afford to make certain tweaks but the majority of the jobs will go (and should go) to the kids.  Honestly the kids have earned those jobs regardless of cap.  At forward, Mitts has 17 pts in his last 21 games (9g 8a).  Asplund has 11 pts in his 27 games including 7 goals (approx. 33 pts for a full season).  Thompson has 12 points in his last 22 games. R2 has 5 goals in his first 16 NHL games. That's one more then Hall and EIchel combined this season (and they played 58 games between them).  On defense Bryson has chipped in 9 pts in 37 games but is only -1 averaging 19 minutes a night.  Since RK was punted Dahlin is playing at his 40 pt pace and is only -2 in 21 games averaging over 23 minutes a night.  Jokiharju has made a similar turnaround going from 15 minutes a night under RK to 20 and playing better all around hockey in the process.

With Ullmark in net this team was 9-6-3 for the season.  That about a 96 pt pace for a full season.  In 8 games with Granato as HC and the kids playing in front of him, he went 4-2-2 for 10 pts or a 102 pt pace.  

 

We do have the cap space to add a 6 million dollar top 6 winger, at least. 

- - - 

As for the bold, do you considering a 40 point player dead money? If not, are you completely writing off Skinner's play under Granato? And if so, how come you are writing it off yet prophesizing about the positive affect he's had on other players?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

We do have the cap space to add a 6 million dollar top 6 winger, at least. 

- - - 

As for the bold, do you considering a 40 point player dead money? If not, are you completely writing off Skinner's play under Granato? And if so, how come you are writing it off yet prophesizing about the positive affect he's had on other players?

KO was better also under Granato until he got hurt.  No I'm not discounting his improvement, but pointing out that we are stuck with these two significantly overpaid players.

[Thorny]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

KO was better also under Granato until he got hurt.  No I'm not discounting his improvement, but pointing out that we are stuck with these two significantly overpaid players.

Sorry, you answered this in the other thread just as I posted that. Thanks

[Weave]

What we saw with the kids after RK is what you typically see when people are put into featured roles that don't really belong there.  This isn't sustainable, and can't be counted on to continue.  We've seen this over and over and over on the Sabres every time they go through an era of mediocrity.  Heck, Zemgus is an example of it.  Feature him in a role over his head and he doubles his point totals.  Same thing happening with the kids here.  We're forced to feature them, they put up respectable points, and some folks see this as a sign that we have what we need already.  We don't.  It's not sustainable.  It never was.  The kids need support and they need roles that fit the slots they are currently fitting.

[Curt]

9 hours ago, Mike Honcho said:

man, what a season. i have to say, i love hockey more than any sport. this sabres team has brought me completely disinterested in all hockey. that hasnt happened to me since hasek got traded. 

i also follow the wild, which are doing amazing this year, but they are on the west, so the games are too late for me to watch. 

i wonder if its not time for me to stop "also" following the wild, and "only" follow the wild (once they get out of the west)

 

I’ve gone through a range of emotions this season and I’ve come out on the optimistic side.

RK was just killing everything good about hockey.  Firing him has really changed things.  The kids are playing like kids, but showing that they can be difference makers.  They seem to be building up a critical mass of young talent and will be adding a couple more important pieces in the upcoming draft.

I feel more interesting in the Sabres now than I have in a couple years.

[kas23]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:16 AM, BuffalOhio said:

Some good has come of this season:

We've found out that:

1. Reinhart is a very good center.

2. Mittelstadt is a bonafide NHL player

3. Dahlin needs to be set free to do as he will.

4. No worse than the 2nd overall pick.

5. We got rid of the worst coach and system in the NHL.

6. Our young D can be very solid over the next several years.  Bryson, Borgen and Samuelsson.

7. Dylan Cozens will be great for this franchise.

8. The Michael Houser Story - and NHL Network made for TV movie.

9. Anders Bjork looks very good on the Reinhart line.

We have known this one already, but hopefully the franchise has learned another lesson:

10. It is beyond imperative that we go into next season with 2 goalies as good as (or hopefully better than) Ulmark. This may include Ulmark himself. 

On 5/6/2021 at 8:16 AM, BuffalOhio said:

Some good has come of this season:

We've found out that:

1. Reinhart is a very good center.

2. Mittelstadt is a bonafide NHL player

3. Dahlin needs to be set free to do as he will.

4. No worse than the 2nd overall pick.

5. We got rid of the worst coach and system in the NHL.

6. Our young D can be very solid over the next several years.  Bryson, Borgen and Samuelsson.

7. Dylan Cozens will be great for this franchise.

8. The Michael Houser Story - and NHL Network made for TV movie.

9. Anders Bjork looks very good on the Reinhart line.

We have known this one already, but hopefully the franchise has learned another lesson:

10. It is beyond imperative that we go into next season with 2 goalies as good as (or hopefully better than) Ulmark. This may include Ulmark himself. 

On 5/6/2021 at 8:16 AM, BuffalOhio said:

Some good has come of this season:

We've found out that:

1. Reinhart is a very good center.

2. Mittelstadt is a bonafide NHL player

3. Dahlin needs to be set free to do as he will.

4. No worse than the 2nd overall pick.

5. We got rid of the worst coach and system in the NHL.

6. Our young D can be very solid over the next several years.  Bryson, Borgen and Samuelsson.

7. Dylan Cozens will be great for this franchise.

8. The Michael Houser Story - and NHL Network made for TV movie.

9. Anders Bjork looks very good on the Reinhart line.

We have known this one already, but hopefully the franchise has learned another lesson:

10. It is beyond imperative that we go into next season with 2 goalies as good as (or hopefully better than) Ulmark. This may include Ulmark himself. 

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No we don't and we don't have to the cap space to make wholesale changes that you and others want.  The only way this team improves is if the kids continue their upward trajectory.   Skinner and KO are 15 mill of dead money.  Jack also gets 10.  Once Dahlin and Reinhart are re-signed we are on the hook for another 12-13 mill.  That means that 5 players, only 3 of which are productive, eat up nearly 50% of the cap with $38 million.  That means we have to add 17 players for about 42 million. 

To accomplish this we can afford to make certain tweaks but the majority of the jobs will go (and should go) to the kids.  Honestly the kids have earned those jobs regardless of cap.  At forward, Mitts has 17 pts in his last 21 games (9g 8a).  Asplund has 11 pts in his 27 games including 7 goals (approx. 33 pts for a full season).  Thompson has 12 points in his last 22 games. R2 has 5 goals in his first 16 NHL games. That's one more then Hall and EIchel combined this season (and they played 58 games between them).  On defense Bryson has chipped in 9 pts in 37 games but is only -1 averaging 19 minutes a night.  Since RK was punted Dahlin is playing at his 40 pt pace and is only -2 in 21 games averaging over 23 minutes a night.  Jokiharju has made a similar turnaround going from 15 minutes a night under RK to 20 and playing better all around hockey in the process.

With Ullmark in net this team was 9-6-3 for the season.  That about a 96 pt pace for a full season.  In 8 games with Granato as HC and the kids playing in front of him, he went 4-2-2 for 10 pts or a 102 pt pace.  

 

Just a friendly reminder that the salary cap is made up and if you need to make changes you can always make changes.

This team is an absolute bottom feeder. You’d need every single “kid” to turn into a bonafide NHL starter right away for the team to make any sort of meaningful progress without other outside adjustments.

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

KO was better also under Granato until he got hurt.  No I'm not discounting his improvement, but pointing out that we are stuck with these two significantly overpaid players.

For the record: worse contracts have been moved.

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

What we saw with the kids after RK is what you typically see when people are put into featured roles that don't really belong there.  This isn't sustainable, and can't be counted on to continue.  We've seen this over and over and over on the Sabres every time they go through an era of mediocrity.  Heck, Zemgus is an example of it.  Feature him in a role over his head and he doubles his point totals.  Same thing happening with the kids here.  We're forced to feature them, they put up respectable points, and some folks see this as a sign that we have what we need already.  We don't.  It's not sustainable.  It never was.  The kids need support and they need roles that fit the slots they are currently fitting.

The kids do need support, but the bold isn’t automatically, or even usually, the case.

More often underutilized people are put into feature roles by circumstance and they crash. And sometimes they blossom into something you never imagined.

Dominik Hasek, the goofy backup you acquired for a declining 3rd liner being the most prominent example around here.

[thewookie1]

7 hours ago, Weave said:

You’ve had this overwhelming sense of optimism for whatever group of kids  are next in line since we’ve exchanged posts on Letsgosabres.  I’ll give you consistency.  But you’ve been overstating optimism for the kids since  Drury and Briere left.  It’s gotta be a clinical condition because optimism in the face of 10 years of disappointment isn’t normal.

Or maybe you just have lower expectations.

I guess in a sense why bother following the team otherwise?  I'd rather be optimistic on a sports team than pessimistic and I'd assume @GASabresIUFAN is the same way. At the end of the day this is supposed to be fun; if it isn't fun anymore than perhaps you need another hobby.  

[Andrew Amerk]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

What we saw with the kids after RK is what you typically see when people are put into featured roles that don't really belong there.  This isn't sustainable, and can't be counted on to continue.  We've seen this over and over and over on the Sabres every time they go through an era of mediocrity.  Heck, Zemgus is an example of it.  Feature him in a role over his head and he doubles his point totals.  Same thing happening with the kids here.  We're forced to feature them, they put up respectable points, and some folks see this as a sign that we have what we need already.  We don't.  It's not sustainable.  It never was.  The kids need support and they need roles that fit the slots they are currently fitting.

This seems like an incredibly odd take. 

Houser winning his first two games, sure, that isn’t sustainable. As for the youngsters shining in their other roles for a longer period now, I see that as sustainable, considering they’ve had no buffers to help. They’d only be even better with a more complete lineup around them. 

[Weave]

18 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I guess in a sense why bother following the team otherwise?  I'd rather be optimistic on a sports team than pessimistic and I'd assume @GASabresIUFAN is the same way. At the end of the day this is supposed to be fun; if it isn't fun anymore than perhaps you need another hobby.  

LOL I've got other hobbies.  I waste time on this forum, but I haven't wasted much of it on the team itself in too long.  I've got better use for my entertainment time budget.

Thanks, Terry!