2020 Off-season gameplan

[dudacek]

Everyone expects a fair amount of salary dumping this off-season as teams struggle with the flat cap moving forward. 

Most people tend to focus on the straight salary dump (I’ll pay you take Patrick Marleau) but I don’t think there will be many teams ready to take on horrible contracts, or pay exhorbitant prices to dump them, Instead, I think there will be a bigger focus on teams jettisoning useful pieces that they’d like to keep, but can’t afford, for lesser, cheaper pieces as they re-entrench in the new reality.

We’ve had a fair amount of talk on here about Cirelli, Strome and Kapanen. Here are some other youngish players the Sabres should be calling about to with some potential to strengthen the middle of the roster.

• The Sharks have $41 million invested long-term in five players averaging over 30 years of age. If they don’t/can’t wriggle out of those deals, Kevin Lebanc might have to be sacrificed. He’s an RFA right winger who probably deserves close to $4 million per after a 3rd straight year of showing he can be counted on for 15 goals and 40 points.
• If they want to keep Alex Pietrangelo, the Blues will have to dump a significant amount of cap. One name they may not be able keep is RFA Vince Dunn, a reliable defenceman who is due a decent raise and would slide perfectly into our 2LD slot behind Dahlin.
• The Penguins are in a constant struggle to stay under the cap and would probably love to dump Nick Bjugstad, who has been an oft-injured disappointment since coming from Florida. Bjugstad is older than most on this list, two years from UFA, a 6’6’ centre who can also play RW. His 4.1 million cap hit is a burden at his recent production levels, but looks good at the 49 points he put up two years ago. He can probably be had virtually for free. Jared :McCann, the other part of the Florida deal is a versatile RFA who can play centre or wing and would cost more, but has performed better.
• The Islanders have four forwards making $5-5.5 million, a fifth making $6 million and another one making $7 million. And they are about to back the Brinks truck up for Mat Barzal. Will they really be able to give 20-goal RW Anthony Beauvillier what he deserves as an RFA next summer?
• Columbus is an interesting trade partner. The new deal they have to sign with Dubois this summer might but them over the cap, which means Josh Anderson (this season), and Oliver Bjorkstrand (next) might be tough RFA contracts. Both fill needs in Buffalo. Then there’s talented 25-year-old centre Alex Wennberg who has been a bust under Torts and could be had cheap as a reclamation project. Boone Jenner is a good 3C approaching UFA. Finally, 26-year-old Ryan Murray is a year away from UFA and a perfect fit for the Sabres 2LD spot.
• Vegas is in a tight, but manageable squeeze, depending on whether they want to re-sign Lehner. But you wonder if Alex Tuch ($4.7 for 8 goals on the third line) is someone they may have soured on.
• Jake Virtanen and Adam Gaudette are a pair of RFA third liners with upside the Canucks may hesitate to invest money in given the big ticket Pettersson, Hughes and Markstrom deals pending and their desire to fill other holes.
• On the less-ambitious side, Sam Bennett is a bottom six forward who may have run his course in Calgary. He is an RFA next summer.
• Finally the Coyotes find themselves in the tough position of being bad, tight to the cap and having very few marketable contracts. The exception might be Christian Dvorak, who has five years left on a $4.5 million deal and can give you 40 points as a centre, or at wing.

We’re not talking blockbusters here, just leveraging our cap space for useful players at below-market costs. I wouldn’t break the bank for any of these players, they just might be available and interest me at the right price. Yes, these are the kind of situations Botterill tried to target with mostly horrible results, so buyer beware. 

We’re talking Toni Lydman for a 3rd rounder, Miro Satan for two B prospect type deals here. They don’t all have to be Beaulieus.and Veseys.

Edited July 26, 2020 by dudacek

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Everyone expects a fair amount of salary dumping this off-season as teams struggle with the flat cap moving forward. 

Most people tend to focus on the straight salary dump (I’ll pay you take Patrick Marleau) but I don’t think there will be many teams ready to take on horrible contracts, or pay exhorbitant prices to dump them, Instead, I think there will be a bigger focus on teams jettisoning useful pieces that they’d like to keep, but can’t afford, for lesser, cheaper pieces as they re-entrench in the new reality.

We’ve had a fair amount of talk on here about Cirelli, Strome and Kapanen. Here are some other youngish players the Sabres should be calling about to with some potential to strengthen the middle of the roster.

• The Sharks have $41 million invested long-term in five players averaging over 30 years of age. If they don’t/can’t wriggle out of those deals, Kevin Lebanc might have to be sacrificed. He’s an RFA right winger who probably deserves close to $4 million per after a 3rd straight year of showing he can be counted on for 15 goals and 40 points.
• If they want to keep Alex Pietrangelo, the Blues will have to dump a significant amount of cap. One name they may not be able keep is RFA Vince Dunn, a reliable defenceman who is due a decent raise and would slide perfectly into our 2LD slot behind Dahlin.
• The Penguins are in a constant struggle to stay under the cap and would probably love to dump Nick Bjugstad, who has been an oft-injured disappointment since coming from Florida. Bjugstad is older than most on this list, two years from UFA, a 6’6’ centre who can also play RW. His 4.1 million cap hit is a burden at his recent production levels, but looks good at the 49 points he put up two years ago. He can probably be had virtually for free. Jared :McCann, the other part of the Florida deal is a versatile RFA who can play centre or wing and would cost more, but has performed better.
• The Islanders have four forwards making $5-5.5 million, a fifth making $6 million and another one making $7 million. And they are about to back the Brinks truck up for Mat Barzal. Will they really be able to give 20-goal RW Anthony Beauvillier what he deserves as an RFA next summer?
• Columbus is an interesting trade partner. The new deal they have to sign with Dubois this summer might but them over the cap, which means Josh Anderson (this season), and Oliver Bjorkstrand (next) might be tough RFA contracts. Both fill needs in Buffalo. Then there’s talented 25-year-old centre Alex Wennberg who has been a bust under Torts and could be had cheap as a reclamation project. Boone Jenner is a good 3C approaching UFA. Finally, 26-year-old Ryan Murray is a year away from UFA and a perfect fit for the Sabres 2LD spot.
• Vegas is in a tight, but manageable squeeze, depending on whether they want to re-sign Lehner. But you wonder if Alex Tuch ($4.7 for 8 goals on the third line) is someone they may have soured on.
• Jake Virtanen and Adam Gaudette are a pair of RFA third liners with upside the Canucks may hesitate to invest money in given the big ticket Pettersson, Hughes and Markstrom deals pending and their desire to fill other holes.
• On the less-ambitious side, Sam Bennett is a bottom six forward who may have run his course in Calgary. He is an RFA next summer.
• Finally the Coyotes find themselves in the tough position of being bad, tight to the cap and having very few marketable contracts. The exception might be Christian Dvorak, who has five years left on a $4.5 million deal and can give you 40 points as a centre, or at wing.

We’re not talking blockbusters here, just leveraging our cap space for useful players at below-market costs. I wouldn’t break the bank for any of these players, they just might be available and interest me at the right price. Yes, these are the kind of situations Botterill tried to target with mostly horrible results, so buyer beware. 

We’re talking Toni Lydman for a 3rd rounder, Miro Satan for two B prospect type deals here. They don’t all have to be Beaulieus.and Veseys.

These are the kinds of normal moves I am looking for.  I would love to ice a real NHL line-up for the first time in almost a decade.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Everyone expects a fair amount of salary dumping this off-season as teams struggle with the flat cap moving forward. 

Most people tend to focus on the straight salary dump (I’ll pay you take Patrick Marleau) but I don’t think there will be many teams ready to take on horrible contracts, or pay exhorbitant prices to dump them, Instead, I think there will be a bigger focus on teams jettisoning useful pieces that they’d like to keep, but can’t afford, for lesser, cheaper pieces as they re-entrench in the new reality.

We’ve had a fair amount of talk on here about Cirelli, Strome and Kapanen. Here are some other youngish players the Sabres should be calling about to with some potential to strengthen the middle of the roster.

• The Sharks have $41 million invested long-term in five players averaging over 30 years of age. If they don’t/can’t wriggle out of those deals, Kevin Lebanc might have to be sacrificed. He’s an RFA right winger who probably deserves close to $4 million per after a 3rd straight year of showing he can be counted on for 15 goals and 40 points.
• If they want to keep Alex Pietrangelo, the Blues will have to dump a significant amount of cap. One name they may not be able keep is RFA Vince Dunn, a reliable defenceman who is due a decent raise and would slide perfectly into our 2LD slot behind Dahlin.
• The Penguins are in a constant struggle to stay under the cap and would probably love to dump Nick Bjugstad, who has been an oft-injured disappointment since coming from Florida. Bjugstad is older than most on this list, two years from UFA, a 6’6’ centre who can also play RW. His 4.1 million cap hit is a burden at his recent production levels, but looks good at the 49 points he put up two years ago. He can probably be had virtually for free. Jared :McCann, the other part of the Florida deal is a versatile RFA who can play centre or wing and would cost more, but has performed better.
• The Islanders have four forwards making $5-5.5 million, a fifth making $6 million and another one making $7 million. And they are about to back the Brinks truck up for Mat Barzal. Will they really be able to give 20-goal RW Anthony Beauvillier what he deserves as an RFA next summer?
• Columbus is an interesting trade partner. The new deal they have to sign with Dubois this summer might but them over the cap, which means Josh Anderson (this season), and Oliver Bjorkstrand (next) might be tough RFA contracts. Both fill needs in Buffalo. Then there’s talented 25-year-old centre Alex Wennberg who has been a bust under Torts and could be had cheap as a reclamation project. Boone Jenner is a good 3C approaching UFA. Finally, 26-year-old Ryan Murray is a year away from UFA and a perfect fit for the Sabres 2LD spot.
• Vegas is in a tight, but manageable squeeze, depending on whether they want to re-sign Lehner. But you wonder if Alex Tuch ($4.7 for 8 goals on the third line) is someone they may have soured on.
• Jake Virtanen and Adam Gaudette are a pair of RFA third liners with upside the Canucks may hesitate to invest money in given the big ticket Pettersson, Hughes and Markstrom deals pending and their desire to fill other holes.
• On the less-ambitious side, Sam Bennett is a bottom six forward who may have run his course in Calgary. He is an RFA next summer.
• Finally the Coyotes find themselves in the tough position of being bad, tight to the cap and having very few marketable contracts. The exception might be Christian Dvorak, who has five years left on a $4.5 million deal and can give you 40 points as a centre, or at wing.

We’re not talking blockbusters here, just leveraging our cap space for useful players at below-market costs. I wouldn’t break the bank for any of these players, they just might be available and interest me at the right price. Yes, these are the kind of situations Botterill tried to target with mostly horrible results, so buyer beware. 

We’re talking Toni Lydman for a 3rd rounder, Miro Satan for two B prospect type deals here. They don’t all have to be Beaulieus.and Veseys.

Terrific breakdown. As you noted players such as Bjorkstrand and Wennberg can be attained for reasonable prices. Instead of trying to make a blockbuster type deal that will strip a thin roster a couple of (somewhat) reclamation projects could be terrific bargain pickups. The approach that you describe in your breakdown  that I am more disposed toward is that there are secondary type players who would be terrific value pickups that add to the roster without much diminishing the roster. 

[thewookie1]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Everyone expects a fair amount of salary dumping this off-season as teams struggle with the flat cap moving forward. 

Most people tend to focus on the straight salary dump (I’ll pay you take Patrick Marleau) but I don’t think there will be many teams ready to take on horrible contracts, or pay exhorbitant prices to dump them, Instead, I think there will be a bigger focus on teams jettisoning useful pieces that they’d like to keep, but can’t afford, for lesser, cheaper pieces as they re-entrench in the new reality.

We’ve had a fair amount of talk on here about Cirelli, Strome and Kapanen. Here are some other youngish players the Sabres should be calling about to with some potential to strengthen the middle of the roster.

• The Sharks have $41 million invested long-term in five players averaging over 30 years of age. If they don’t/can’t wriggle out of those deals, Kevin Lebanc might have to be sacrificed. He’s an RFA right winger who probably deserves close to $4 million per after a 3rd straight year of showing he can be counted on for 15 goals and 40 points.
• If they want to keep Alex Pietrangelo, the Blues will have to dump a significant amount of cap. One name they may not be able keep is RFA Vince Dunn, a reliable defenceman who is due a decent raise and would slide perfectly into our 2LD slot behind Dahlin.
• The Penguins are in a constant struggle to stay under the cap and would probably love to dump Nick Bjugstad, who has been an oft-injured disappointment since coming from Florida. Bjugstad is older than most on this list, two years from UFA, a 6’6’ centre who can also play RW. His 4.1 million cap hit is a burden at his recent production levels, but looks good at the 49 points he put up two years ago. He can probably be had virtually for free. Jared McCann, the other part of the Florida deal is a versatile RFA who can play centre or wing and would cost more, but has performed better.
• The Islanders have four forwards making $5-5.5 million, a fifth making $6 million and another one making $7 million. And they are about to back the Brinks truck up for Mat Barzal. Will they really be able to give 20-goal RW Anthony Beauvillier what he deserves as an RFA next summer?
• Columbus is an interesting trade partner. The new deal they have to sign with Dubois this summer might but them over the cap, which means Josh Anderson (this season), and Oliver Bjorkstrand (next) might be tough RFA contracts. Both fill needs in Buffalo. Then there’s talented 25-year-old centre Alex Wennberg who has been a bust under Torts and could be had cheap as a reclamation project. Boone Jenner is a good 3C approaching UFA. Finally, 26-year-old Ryan Murray is a year away from UFA and a perfect fit for the Sabres 2LD spot.
• Vegas is in a tight, but manageable squeeze, depending on whether they want to re-sign Lehner. But you wonder if Alex Tuch ($4.7 for 8 goals on the third line) is someone they may have soured on.
• Jake Virtanen and Adam Gaudette are a pair of RFA third liners with upside the Canucks may hesitate to invest money in given the big ticket Pettersson, Hughes and Markstrom deals pending and their desire to fill other holes.
• On the less-ambitious side, Sam Bennett is a bottom six forward who may have run his course in Calgary. He is an RFA next summer.
• Finally the Coyotes find themselves in the tough position of being bad, tight to the cap and having very few marketable contracts. The exception might be Christian Dvorak, who has five years left on a $4.5 million deal and can give you 40 points as a centre, or at wing.

We’re not talking blockbusters here, just leveraging our cap space for useful players at below-market costs. I wouldn’t break the bank for any of these players, they just might be available and interest me at the right price. Yes, these are the kind of situations Botterill tried to target with mostly horrible results, so buyer beware. 

We’re talking Toni Lydman for a 3rd rounder, Miro Satan for two B prospect type deals here. They don’t all have to be Beaulieus.and Veseys.

Let's see

Yes, chase them down if the price is within reason:

Lebanc - team player but was atrocious in +/- this year. (He was literally a -33 over 70 games; I don't take much stock in the stat but this was too huge not to mention)

Dunn - they owe us from the ROR trade, they better damn pay up ?

Beauvillier - Useful scorer, isn't great but is certainly good 

Virtanen - The more physical and slightly older version of above, less goals total but trending up

Perhaps if the price isn't much:

Gaudette - young with a bit of talent, mid 6 player (From Braintree, Mass.... seriously!)

Bennett - Zemgus Girgensons 2.0, a tad more consistent overall play wise and a cool red mustache if he gets into the playoffs

Tuch - head scratcher, ok player but is his contract too long to play with hope? (From Syracuse though)

Dvorak - eerily similar to Tuch in terms of high potential but lower output that what their contract is worth

Murray - often injured so buyer beware

Jenner -  3C and was a -14 last year, take that however you want

Anderson - was his injury the problem or was his 27 goal campaign a fluke

Bjorkstrand - 40 pt guy, not much else to say 

McCann - Definitely some skill but at 24 years of age, his 35pt peak and play, screams 3C

Stay away, nope nope so much nope:

Wennberg - if he was 1 year 4mil maybe but he's 3x4.9mil per, soft as a stuffed animal and can't even put up points. He would be nothing but an anchor who takes up cap space and a roster spot.

Bjugstad - Love his size, everything else points to a guy who will never be anything special. In a combined 45 games with Pittsburgh he had 10 goals and 6 assists total. His peak was 49pts and at 28 years of age I just don't expect him to ever top that.

 

 

The 2C is vital, we cannot fool around at the edges and hope to be a playoff team next year. My base 2C canditate would be a guy like Chris Tierney who brings solid overall play. A Statsny or Bozak could be used if we are left desperate however. Whomever we bring in for 2C cannot, and I repeat, cannot be a reclamation project or "hopeful with new situation" type of player. They either need to be a cagey vet who is a certainly or a younger player who at minimum is a good 3C but has potential to do more with better linemates. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by thewookie1

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

If you think you are getting Lindholm at that contract, that looks like what it would take at the very least.

Yep, he outproduced Reinhart last year and is a C, who's going to be making SUBSTANTIALLY less. 

Not liking the deal is fine but it's far from awful. I could see Flames fans scoffing at it much the same way. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Thorny

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

These are the kinds of normal moves I am looking for.  I would love to ice a real NHL line-up for the first time in almost a decade.

I disagree. This is getting a guy bunting to get a guy from first to second, instead of getting a guy who can swing for a double or triple. 
 

Think small, stay small. Think big, get big. 
 

The team already ran the course of getting “reclamation project/low value high ceiling” guys in the Vesey and Shearys of the NHL world. It’s time to bring in a notable player or 3 who will help the team turn the corner instead of treading the same water for another season. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I disagree. This is getting a guy bunting to get a guy from first to second, instead of getting a guy who can swing for a double or triple. 
 

Think small, stay small. Think big, get big. 
 

The team already ran the course of getting “reclamation project/low value high ceiling” guys in the Vesey and Shearys of the NHL world. It’s time to bring in a notable player or 3 who will help the team turn the corner instead of treading the same water for another season. 

You going to stop dating others if your crush is unavailable?

There is nothing on that list that should prevent you from swinging at the fences for something bigger should it become available.

[WildCard]

8 hours ago, freester said:

I don’t want Wayne Simmons. The Cap can be spent on a better G than Allen or a LD

I don't think anyone wants Wayne Simmons tbh. 6 years ago he was a must have, not so much anymore 

9 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

If you think you are getting Lindholm at that contract, that looks like what it would take at the very least.

Then it's a rip off. Reinhart is better than Lindholm

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I disagree. This is getting a guy bunting to get a guy from first to second, instead of getting a guy who can swing for a double or triple. 
 

Think small, stay small. Think big, get big. 
 

The team already ran the course of getting “reclamation project/low value high ceiling” guys in the Vesey and Shearys of the NHL world. It’s time to bring in a notable player or 3 who will help the team turn the corner instead of treading the same water for another season. 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

You going to stop dating others if your crush is unavailable?

There is nothing on that list that should prevent you from swinging at the fences for something bigger should it become available.

I'd guess a better way to bridge both of your opinions would be to say...

Don't stop dating, but don't get married

 

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

9 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I'd guess a better way to bridge both of your opinions would be to say...

Don't stop dating, but don't get married

 

 

https://youtu.be/BUsWiIN-LfE

[LGR4GM]

Kevin Lebanc is very interesting. As mentioned his +/- is atrocious but his Corsi is not and his xGF/xGA ratio is positive (just barely). 

[French Collection]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Kevin Lebanc is very interesting. As mentioned his +/- is atrocious but his Corsi is not and his xGF/xGA ratio is positive (just barely). 

I remembered him signing a low ball contract last summer. He must love San Jose.

https://www.tsn.ca/on-kevin-labanc-s-confounding-contract-1.1335215

He could help a team like Buffalo.

[Andrew Amerk]

19 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I'd guess a better way to bridge both of your opinions would be to say...

Don't stop dating, but don't get married

 

 

Idk, I feel like going with mediocre options instead of the best ones is more akin to settling for someone, instead of making that move for someone who better suits you and your future. 

[nfreeman]

From Vogl in the Athletic today:  https://theathletic.com/1956578/2020/07/28/sabres-mailbag-part-two-cozens-readiness-montours-future-and-more/

Quote

I also think the Sabres need to address their goaltending. Of the 69 goalies to play at least 25 games during the past two seasons, Ullmark ranks 35^th in save percentage (.910) and Hutton is 52^nd (.904). There are times they needed more support, but that’s two full years of subpar goaltending. The Sabres need an upgrade.

Great job, JB!

Also this, which I found interesting.

Quote

I’d be surprised if Montour suits up for the Sabres again. As a restricted free agent with arbitration rights, he’s in line for a contract of $4 million or more. For a team that also has Ristolainen, Henri Jokiharju, Colin Miller and Will Borgen on the right side, that’s money that can be spent better elsewhere.

 

[LGR4GM]

Also since we talk about Skinner a lot. No wonder he couldn't do much last season. 

Quote

Skinner played the most with Marcus Johansson last season, but after that it was Conor Sheary, Evan Rodrigues and Vladimir Sobotka. Those three have combined for just 45 goals and 67 assists in their last 345 games. https://theathletic.com/1956578/2020/07/28/sabres-mailbag-part-two-cozens-readiness-montours-future-and-more/

 

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

From Vogl in the Athletic today:  https://theathletic.com/1956578/2020/07/28/sabres-mailbag-part-two-cozens-readiness-montours-future-and-more/

Great job, JB!

Also this, which I found interesting.

 

I was quite interested in the Montour quote too.

I wonder if he’s talked to people, or if it’s more speculation based on his free agency and Ralph’s love of Risto. I respect John, but he never feels well-connected.

I don’t know if Montour has the arbitration cred John seems to think he has. Right now he is 99th-highest paid defenceman in the league and the 63rd highest scoring over the last two seasons. He’s not counted on for special teams or defence and he hasn’t improved since he signed his last contract. And he’s coming off a bad season. Shouldn’t be too much disagreement that his new deal should start with a $4

I like Montour, but I certainly agree that based on the other personnel we have back there, he is the guy I’m most ready to move.

Edited July 28, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorny]

I don’t like any of the D on the team enough besides Dahlin to care who we move much beyond what the return is. I’ll move the guy the other team wants. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I don’t like any of the D on the team enough besides Dahlin to care who we move much beyond what the return is. I’ll move the guy the other team wants. 

Yes, I can live with that too, depending on the relative return.

I just want a balance of strengths: Risto and McCabe with Samuelsson coming, Dahlin and Joki with Johnson, Bryson and Laaksonen coming. That makes Montour and Miller more expendable, IMO.

Im starting to think though, with the cap being the catalyst for trade opportunities, that a poised 20-year-old RHD on his ELC who has already shown he can play might carry a lot of value. I think GMs will be asking for Joki.

[nfreeman]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yes, I can live with that too, depending on the relative return.

I just want a balance of strengths: Risto and McCabe with Samuelsson coming, Dahlin and Joki with Johnson, Bryson and Laaksonen coming. That makes Montour and Miller more expendable, IMO.

Im starting to think though, with the cap being the catalyst for trade opportunities, that a poised 20-year-old RHD on his ELC who has already shown he can play might carry a lot of value. I think GMs will be asking for Joki.

This sounds right, and I'm fine with trading Joker and keeping Risto and Montour, but there had better be a no-BS top-6 C or RW in his mid-20s or younger coming back.

[Thorny]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yes, I can live with that too, depending on the relative return.

I just want a balance of strengths: Risto and McCabe with Samuelsson coming, Dahlin and Joki with Johnson, Bryson and Laaksonen coming. That makes Montour and Miller more expendable, IMO.

Im starting to think though, with the cap being the catalyst for trade opportunities, that a poised 20-year-old RHD on his ELC who has already shown he can play might carry a lot of value. I think GMs will be asking for Joki.

I can totally see Adams fielding the most calls on Joki. But, personally, I don’t see many team-changing offers coming for that player. I see a return more in line with what we paid to get him from Chicago. I’ll say in the same breath that I both like Jokiharju and also think he’s trending from slightly overrated to overrated around these parts, as always IMO.

We probably get less tire kicking on Risto but, I cannot rule out the possibility there isn’t ONE old school GM out there willing to pay up a price inclusive of not just the 2nd pair serviceable Ristolanen, but the 1st pairing Concept Risto, too. 

As recently as the previous offseason we could have had Ehlers. And Chevy is supposed to be smart.

8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

This sounds right, and I'm fine with trading Joker and keeping Risto and Montour, but there had better be a no-BS top-6 C or RW in his mid-20s or younger coming back.

Trade a flailing prospect for Joki, trade Joki for the second most important position in a forward group, who’s also young, with upside. 

And then I woke up. (No Country for Old Men, 2008)

Edited July 28, 2020 by Thorny

[nfreeman]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I can totally see Adams fielding the most calls on Joki. But, personally, I don’t see many team-changing offers coming for that player. I see a return more in line with what we paid to get him from Chicago. I’ll say in the same breath that I both like Jokiharju and also think he’s trending from slightly overrated to overrated around these parts, as always IMO.

We probably get less tire kicking on Risto but, I cannot rule out the possibility there isn’t ONE old school GM out there willing to pay up a price inclusive of not just the 2nd pair serviceable Ristolanen, but the 1st pairing Concept Risto, too. 

As recently as the previous offseason we could have had Ehlers. And Chevy is supposed to be smart.

Trade a flailing prospect for Joki, trade Joki for the second most important position in a forward group, who’s also young, with upside. 

And then I woke up. (No Country for Old Men, 2008)

This is entirely fair, but it's also fair to say that I'd rather keep Joker (and Risto and Montour for that matter) than trade him for a meh return.

I also think that it's fairly likely that other GMs may overrate Joker due to youth, low cost, solid play, pedigree and upside, and underrate Risto and Montour, such that the Sabres could end up with a pretty solid return for Joker but a disappointing return for Risto or Montour.

As a related point, I find myself increasingly annoyed at JB for accumulating defensemen while neglecting goalies and forwards, based on the premise that the defensemen could be parlayed into good forwards, then getting zero for Bogo, Pilut and Scandy (other than Frolik and yet another league embarrassment in the case of Scandy), 2 of whom are LHDs, and then finding the team in need of a good LHD. 

What a freaking waste of time (and years of Jack's career) the past 3 seasons were.

[Thorny]

30 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

This is entirely fair, but it's also fair to say that I'd rather keep Joker (and Risto and Montour for that matter) than trade him for a meh return.

I also think that it's fairly likely that other GMs may overrate Joker due to youth, low cost, solid play, pedigree and upside, and underrate Risto and Montour, such that the Sabres could end up with a pretty solid return for Joker but a disappointing return for Risto or Montour.

As a related point, I find myself increasingly annoyed at JB for accumulating defensemen while neglecting goalies and forwards, based on the premise that the defensemen could be parlayed into good forwards, then getting zero for Bogo, Pilut and Scandy (other than Frolik and yet another league embarrassment in the case of Scandy), 2 of whom are LHDs, and then finding the team in need of a good LHD. 

What a freaking waste of time (and years of Jack's career) the past 3 seasons were.

Ayup.

[Thorny]

I’ve accepted the notion that we could trade Risto in a deal in which he’s the “best” asset, yet, our team is better off for it. 

We no longer have the luxury of, “well we’ll just hold onto the asset for now” thanks to the Botterill tenure you outlined. If we have to take a loss on Risto to upgrade the C corps, I’ve weighed that loss to be less significant than the losses we’ll sustain by not upgrading the forwards. 

I’m not giving him away but rectifying a positional nead bears considerable value in my equation. Especially as to how it pertains to bringing along our young C properly. 

I hope there are better moves out there but to me that is preferable to no action at all. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Thorny

[dudacek]

I feel the same way.

Joki is good but he tends to be overrated in how good people think he is now, and how good people expect him to be.

But Value = (Need + Production - Cap hit) x Potential. Joki plays a position of need with competence in most situations at a minimum cap hit, with a lot of room for growth. His value right now is pretty high in a cap-strapped world.

The fact is his value might never be higher, which — as they say — is the right time to sell.

 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 I’ll say in the same breath that I both like Jokiharju and also think he’s trending from slightly overrated to overrated around these parts, as always IMO.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by dudacek

[Andrew Amerk]

I’m fairly firmly entrenched in the “Id hate to give up Joki” camp, but if it netted us someone like (bringing him up for the 672nd time) Cirelli - you do it. 
 

Trading Nylander to get Cirelli? Major gains bruh. And a final parting gift we could thank the Bott for. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Andrew Amerk