2020 Off-season gameplan

[thewookie1]

I don’t think I trade Jokiharju+ even for Cirelli only because it leaves our defense as Dahlin and the band of what ifs and maybes. If we did I would hope we’d move Risto or Montour to go get a Hanifin tier young Dman. 

(I really like Joker and rather not trade him in division)

[Thorny]

54 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I don’t think I trade Jokiharju+ even for Cirelli only because it leaves our defense as Dahlin and the band of what ifs and maybes. If we did I would hope we’d move Risto or Montour to go get a Hanifin tier young Dman. 

(I really like Joker and rather not trade him in division)

So you wouldn't trade Jokiharju and say, a 2nd and Davidsson for Cirelli?

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

So you wouldn't trade Jokiharju and say, a 2nd and Davidsson for Cirelli?

Hmmm, that would certainly be a tough one. What is Cirelli signing for 6x6? 6x5.5?

If he's only willing to sign for 5 years, then an offersheet is likely better value. 

[PerreaultForever]

24 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Hmmm, that would certainly be a tough one. What is Cirelli signing for 6x6? 6x5.5?

If he's only willing to sign for 5 years, then an offersheet is likely better value. 

Considering Florida tax laws any offer sheet he'd sign has to be substantially more than Tampa is offering. A lot more. That will never happen as this team doesn't even want to pay a scouting staff any more yet alone high priced FAs.

[thewookie1]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Considering Florida tax laws any offer sheet he'd sign has to be substantially more than Tampa is offering. A lot more. That will never happen as this team doesn't even want to pay a scouting staff any more yet alone high priced FAs.

Oh hush you; take your pessimistic attitude and stow it away on a submarine. If Kevyn Adams feels he'll help the Sabres the Pegulas will pay; they trust him. 

 

I'd personally trade #8 for Cirelli over Jokiharju but who knows if Tampa would want #8

Edited July 29, 2020 by thewookie1

[Huckleberry]

I don't want Cirelli -  for me Cozens will be our 2C and he'll be good at it.       We should focus on finding a 3C and 2RW.

[WildCard]

19 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I don't want Cirelli -  for me Cozens will be our 2C and he'll be good at it.       We should focus on finding a 3C and 2RW.

He won't be for ready for years though

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

He won't be for ready for years though

at least 2 would be my guess

[sweetlou]

Sabres have to stop trading and drafting for hopefully's!!!  They need some proven players and if it means trading a couple of picks and prospects then so be it!!

 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, sweetlou said:

Sabres have to stop trading and drafting for hopefully's!!!  They need some proven players and if it means trading a couple of picks and prospects then so be it!!

 

You mean their approach since... checks math... 2015?

Botterill and Murray traded away massive amounts of picks and got nothing useful. Draft better. 

[sweetlou]

56 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You mean their approach since... checks math... 2015?

Botterill and Murray traded away massive amounts of picks and got nothing useful. Draft better. 

Who have they traded for since 2015 that was a sure fire good player?  Everyone they pick up they have been hoping would play better than they have previously and that is why it hasn't worked out. 

[WildCard]

6 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

Who have they traded for since 2015 that was a sure fire good player?  Everyone they pick up they have been hoping would play better than they have previously and that is why it hasn't worked out. 

Ryan O'Reilly

[LGR4GM]

27 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

Who have they traded for since 2015 that was a sure fire good player?  Everyone they pick up they have been hoping would play better than they have previously and that is why it hasn't worked out. 

Well they picked up ROR and then tossed him aside for peanut shells and magic beans.

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, sweetlou said:

Who have they traded for since 2015 that was a sure fire good player?  Everyone they pick up they have been hoping would play better than they have previously and that is why it hasn't worked out. 

By my charts: Kane, O'Reilly, Skinner, and... at the time... the Force Moulson.

Some mid-to-bottom line/paring players have been fine for their role as well: McGinn, Bogosian, DesLauriers.

The only "projects" that have actually become better while with us since 2014 are: Larsson, Lehner*.   Jokiharju should join this list but so far we only have a baseline season, and I'm hopeful as well with Kahun, but I can't include them yet.

There's an entire roster's worth of names that trended flat or downward that we've acquired in that time.

*Lehner was getting better with us the first year, then tailed off, but is now solid again (glad he was able to get his life together).

[Curt]

1 hour ago, sweetlou said:

Who have they traded for since 2015 that was a sure fire good player?  Everyone they pick up they have been hoping would play better than they have previously and that is why it hasn't worked out. 

Scandella, Pominville, Montour, Skinner, Kahun..........

[sweetlou]

4 hours ago, Curt said:

Scandella, Pominville, Montour, Skinner, Kahun..........

Pomms was on the down side of his career when he came back...

Scandella was brought in to be a 2/ 3 dman, he only turned out to be a 4/5

Montour was brought in to be a PP specialist and that hasn't worked out

Skinner is the one good player who when paired with Eichel exceeded his expectations

Kahun- too early to tell

ROR was the right pick up, but not enough was brought in with him and Eichel and ROR wanted to be on a better team

[Curt]

11 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

Scandella was brought in to be a 2/ 3 dman, he only turned out to be a 4/5

Montour was brought in to be a PP specialist and that hasn't worked out

These are completely not true.  No one thought Scandella was a guy that you build around, he was just a guy who could help in the top 4.  He did that 2 out of the 3 years he was in Buffalo.  Montour was never going to be the PP QB.  The team already had Risto and Dahlin.

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Oh hush you; take your pessimistic attitude and stow it away on a submarine. If Kevyn Adams feels he'll help the Sabres the Pegulas will pay; they trust him. 

How do you know that? All signs indicate they are going to pinch pennies. The economy is in a general shambles, the demand for their new wells is non existent, they laid off staff up and down the organization, they talked about a leaner organization, and they hired a cheap internal person rather than dishing out money for a higher priced experienced executive. Everything they have done lately points towards a cost saving future. 

They might also be weary of repeating a Skinner type deal on anybody. Would I prefer it if you were right, absolutely. But so far the facts indicate otherwise. 

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

How do you know that? All signs indicate they are going to pinch pennies. The economy is in a general shambles, the demand for their new wells is non existent, they laid off staff up and down the organization, they talked about a leaner organization, and they hired a cheap internal person rather than dishing out money for a higher priced experienced executive. Everything they have done lately points towards a cost saving future. 

They might also be weary of repeating a Skinner type deal on anybody. Would I prefer it if you were right, absolutely. But so far the facts indicate otherwise. 

You are reaching a conclusion via incomplete information and attempting tie together the corporate side with the player side. There is nothing that hints at the Pegulas not being willing to pay players to make the team better. (Aside from ROR but that was likely more of we aren't paying for him to leave) They are mostly tone deaf, but even a child could figure out that this team needs serious assistance on the ice. Even from a purely business side angle, bringing in some shiny new players who are well thought of could do numbers for their ticket sales; which once they return will still have to work through customer fears and a low quality product. They cannot control the fans' fears over COVID but they can fix the product. 

A leaner organization also regards to the steamlining and getting rid of multiple redundant positions between the Bills and Sabres as they unite the ventures under the whole PSE/One Buffalo moniker. Why would you need 20 Sabres ticket sellers and 20 Bills ticket sellers when 30 One Buffalo ticket sellers are far more efficient. Another instance of this is seen by the portions of the Bills Ticket and PR staff moving into the PSE offices above the Labatt Brew House/Restaurant downtown. 

As for why they hired Kevyn Adams; I honestly take them at face value in saying they don't trust the NHL's people after Botterill and former/present? NHL staffer Pat Lafontaine's choice in Murray blew up in the Pegula's faces. Hence they chose quite possibly the only possible candidate for the GM chair from within their organization. Will it work, who knows but I honestly don't believe it was solely because he'd be cheap. After all, they are still paying all these contracts they fire regardless if they are working or not. 

At this time, I'd say part of their desire to go leaner is perhaps due to the fact they have given a blank check since they got here only to see the team nosedive and fan sentiments turn hostile. Why pay 20 scouts to fly all over the place if it hasn't given the team any noticeable advantage. Along with this, the seeming turn towards more analytics based  decision making lends to an idea of a more streamlined scouting staff versus having potentially 15 different views on the value of analytics and being left frozen by over analysis.

So let us see what they do once the playoffs end; then we can likely see rather or not we should be jumping off ledges.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

You are reaching a conclusion via incomplete information and attempting tie together the corporate side with the player side. There is nothing that hints at the Pegulas not being willing to pay players to make the team better. (Aside from ROR but that was likely more of we aren't paying for him to leave) They are mostly tone deaf, but even a child could figure out that this team needs serious assistance on the ice. Even from a purely business side angle, bringing in some shiny new players who are well thought of could do numbers for their ticket sales; which once they return will still have to work through customer fears and a low quality product. They cannot control the fans' fears over COVID but they can fix the product. 

A leaner organization also regards to the steamlining and getting rid of multiple redundant positions between the Bills and Sabres as they unite the ventures under the whole PSE/One Buffalo moniker. Why would you need 20 Sabres ticket sellers and 20 Bills ticket sellers when 30 One Buffalo ticket sellers are far more efficient. Another instance of this is seen by the portions of the Bills Ticket and PR staff moving into the PSE offices above the Labatt Brew House/Restaurant downtown. 

As for why they hired Kevyn Adams; I honestly take them at face value in saying they don't trust the NHL's people after Botterill and former/present? NHL staffer Pat Lafontaine's choice in Murray blew up in the Pegula's faces. Hence they chose quite possibly the only possible candidate for the GM chair from within their organization. Will it work, who knows but I honestly don't believe it was solely because he'd be cheap. After all, they are still paying all these contracts they fire regardless if they are working or not. 

At this time, I'd say part of their desire to go leaner is perhaps due to the fact they have given a blank check since they got here only to see the team nosedive and fan sentiments turn hostile. Why pay 20 scouts to fly all over the place if it hasn't given the team any noticeable advantage. Along with this, the seeming turn towards more analytics based  decision making lends to an idea of a more streamlined scouting staff versus having potentially 15 different views on the value of analytics and being left frozen by over analysis.

So let us see what they do once the playoffs end; then we can likely see rather or not we should be jumping off ledges.

Your view is much more favourable to the Pegulas than mine would be. I read all that stuff after JBot's firing as corporate spin and see the blame resting on them and not buying their excuses. They were quick to finger point and as the old saying goes there were three fingers pointing back at them. I'm not going to put any blame on LaFontaine, I see him as a victim of inept ownership and he was smart to run for the exit. The fact is they keep hiring cheaper inexperienced people to run the show and those people keep failing. Adams has worked for them personally, but he is the least experienced of all 3 in terms of sailing the whole ship. Do you really expect he'll turn out to be a wunderkind or is it more probable he will take several years at least to just learn the job making mistakes along the way much like JBot did. 

I'm certainly not going to conclude it's a guarantee we fail this time and I'm not going to jump off any ledges but, I am not going to buy into false hope (yet again) this time based on corporate rhetoric. I'm at the show me and prove it phase. Make it happen and I'm there with you, but do not expect me to follow you blindly just because you say this time it's different. (you being the ownership, not you the poster if that isn't clear :))

[sabremike]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Your view is much more favourable to the Pegulas than mine would be. I read all that stuff after JBot's firing as corporate spin and see the blame resting on them and not buying their excuses. They were quick to finger point and as the old saying goes there were three fingers pointing back at them. I'm not going to put any blame on LaFontaine, I see him as a victim of inept ownership and he was smart to run for the exit. The fact is they keep hiring cheaper inexperienced people to run the show and those people keep failing. Adams has worked for them personally, but he is the least experienced of all 3 in terms of sailing the whole ship. Do you really expect he'll turn out to be a wunderkind or is it more probable he will take several years at least to just learn the job making mistakes along the way much like JBot did. 

I'm certainly not going to conclude it's a guarantee we fail this time and I'm not going to jump off any ledges but, I am not going to buy into false hope (yet again) this time based on corporate rhetoric. I'm at the show me and prove it phase. Make it happen and I'm there with you, but do not expect me to follow you blindly just because you say this time it's different. (you being the ownership, not you the poster if that isn't clear :))

The Pegulas literally did a PowerPoint presentation to their employees telling them that a pillar of PSE was allowing them to maintain their lifestyle. I mean that should've opened everyone's eyes wider than drinking an oil drum filled with expresso.

[JohnC]

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

You mean their approach since... checks math... 2015?

Botterill and Murray traded away massive amounts of picks and got nothing useful. Draft better. 

I'm a believer in the draft and develop philosophy as the best approach to building a successful operation. That philosophy assumes a proficiency in evaluating prospects. As you point out this organization has been deficient on that score. However, this year I am more receptive to trading our (relatively) high first round pick if it individually or packaged brings back a genuine second line player. Hopefully, the return would be a # 2 center but I'm willing to accept a winger if it is a young and established high yield player. 

Make no mistake in interpreting what I'm stating here. I'm not advocating that this franchise has to act out of desperation to address a major need. If a fair value deal can't be made then stay the course and make secondary type deals to more incrementally improve and better balance the roster. 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I'm a believer in the draft and develop philosophy as the best approach to building a successful operation. That philosophy assumes a proficiency in evaluating prospects. As you point out this organization has been deficient on that score. However, this year I am more receptive to trading our (relatively) high first round pick if it individually or packaged brings back a genuine second line player. Hopefully, the return would be a # 2 center but I'm willing to accept a winger if it is a young and established high yield player. 

Make no mistake in interpreting what I'm stating here. I'm not advocating that this franchise has to act out of desperation to address a major need. If a fair value deal can't be made then stay the course and make secondary type deals to more incrementally improve and better balance the roster. 

Right winger or Center. There is no point in adding another lw to this team. 

[Huckleberry]

On 7/29/2020 at 3:27 PM, WildCard said:

He won't be for ready for years though

I think he'll surprise many next year with a 50-60 point season.

[WildCard]

3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I think he'll surprise many next year with a 50-60 point season.

That would be incredible. I think you're much more likely to get 30-40