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Who is the Sabres 2nd Best Forward?

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2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'm actually not going to disagree, but just say only time will tell. Kruger really likes him and has given him more responsibility and he has responded. I hope he continues to look this good, but you might be right, he could disappear again. 

His speed really impresses me. Didn't realize he was so fast. One-two steps and he is gone. 

I hope he continues to look good as well but at his age and having already played in the league for 3 full seasons, a major breakout is unlikely. He could do it but I don't think he will. If he has 15-17 goals and 20-25 assists it will be a solid season for him. 

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I view Vesey and Sheary as different styles of the same player. Will give you bursts of production in between long droughts (this was the Vesey story in his Ranger days too) with inconsistent play in the meantime - Sheary still capable of making a thing or two happen on the rush or in the offensive zone, and Vesey not so hopeless defensively (which was surprising given all I had read before the season). 

But pretty frustrating players overall.

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When Sheary plays like he did in the Leaf games (and every Penguin game), it makes the invisibility cloak he wears the rest of the time all the more confounding.

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I think Sheary has good speed and a pretty good hockey IQ, but lousy hands and not much strength on the puck.  If he's not a winger on an elite center's line, he's not going to sniff 20 goals again.  I also don't expect him to get another NHL contract for more than 2 years or more than $2MM per year.

Vesey's feet aren't as quick as Sheary's, but his overall speed is pretty good, as is his hockey IQ, and his hands and his strength on the puck are much better than Sheary's.

If the Sabres keep one of the 2 of them next year, I'd vote for Vesey.

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Right now, I think it's actually Johanson because he is elevating the play of the players around him. It's not a coincidence that we have been remarkably better since his return and our worst games came in his absence. 

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9 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Right now, I think it's actually Johanson because he is elevating the play of the players around him. It's not a coincidence that we have been remarkably better since his return and our worst games came in his absence. 

I'm genuinely surprised he's not getting more love here.

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3 hours ago, Weave said:

I'm genuinely surprised he's not getting more love here.

I bet part of this is the fact that he missed a few weeks just now. Botts' best UFA acquisition in 3 years

By a lot, unless I'm forgetting someone

Edited by Randall Flagg

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3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Right now, I think it's actually Johanson because he is elevating the play of the players around him. It's not a coincidence that we have been remarkably better since his return and our worst games came in his absence. 

 

23 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I bet part of this is the fact that he missed a few weeks just now. Botts' best UFA acquisition in 3 years

By a lot, unless I'm forgetting someone

His underlyings have also been....not good. He said himself he's been struggling, I don't think he deserves much consideration for 2nd best. He's tailed off after a pretty good start. 

It's still quite easily Skinner, to me. 

Edited by Thorny

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19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

His underlyings have also been....not good. He said himself he's been struggling, I don't think he deserves much consideration for 2nd best. He's tailed off after a pretty good start. 

and yet, we are winning since his return................

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24 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

and yet, we are winning since his return................

And we've been accumulating points since Dahlin went out, since Bogo got back, etc etc

The truth is that, if you look at the numbers, posted the chart a bit ago but not sure which thread, they've been pretty reasonably good since Sweden, even though they hadn't been winning. I think it's a team thing. 

That and Jack being All-World. Have to give Krueger credit for sticking with VO on the top line. Vesey needs props. There are others. But none of Dahlin, Bogo, Johansson leaving/returning represented a blip in the trend line of their underlying metrics. It certainly went up in our favor once Sobotka stopped getting 2nd line minutes, but one could argue correlation rather that causation. 

I won't, because I don't think he's good. 

Edited by Thorny
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46 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

His underlyings have also been....not good. He said himself he's been struggling, I don't think he deserves much consideration for 2nd best. He's tailed off after a pretty good start. 

It's still quite easily Skinner, to me. 

Most of those games with Vlad right? :) 

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1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

and yet, we are winning since his return................

Because, unlike every other player on the roster not named Eichel, he can competently fill the #2C role.

That doesn't make him the 2nd best player.  Heck, it doesn't even make him the 2nd most important player - that distinction at present goes to Ullmark.  (Would still put him behind (in no particular order) Reinhart and Skinner and would say Olofsson is nipping hard at his heels for the distinction of 2nd best player distinction.)

But, considering the lack of top 6 C's on this roster, he is the 2nd most important forward.

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14 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Because, unlike every other player on the roster not named Eichel, he can competently fill the #2C role.

That doesn't make him the 2nd best player.  Heck, it doesn't even make him the 2nd most important player - that distinction at present goes to Ullmark.  (Would still put him behind (in no particular order) Reinhart and Skinner and would say Olofsson is nipping hard at his heels for the distinction of 2nd best player distinction.)

But, considering the lack of top 6 C's on this roster, he is the 2nd most important forward.

I still think Skinner is more important than Mojo. We need his raw goals. That he generates on his own line, all at ES. He's working surprisingly well with Larsson, so as long as that continues...ya, I'm going with Principle Skinner. 

@dudacekbrings up a good point about how no one is ever on Skinner in a bad way, for the most part, when he's slumping: "Oh well, he's still gonna get his goals, right? Not worried". Yet conversely I also find that his importance is often undersold: "He'll get his goals, it's gonna be about 30, and that's that."  It's almost like he's caught in a kind of "middle-ground". Taken for granted,  a bit. 

They are very important goals. And he's actually been passing the puck noticeably lately. 

Edited by Thorny

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The fact that Olofsson is legitimately entering this conversation is a Festivus miracle.

Over the past two weeks he has looked like a legitimate top 6 forward. First one we’ve developed since, what Roy/Pominville?

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I still think Skinner is more important than Mojo. We need his raw goals. That he generates on his own line, all at ES. He's working surprisingly well with Larsson, so as long as that continues...ya, I'm going with Principle Skinner. 

@dudacekbrings up a good point about how no one is ever on Skinner in a bad way, for the most part, yet conversely I also find that his importance is often undersold. It's almost like he's caught in a kind of "middle-ground". He'll get his goals, it's gonna be about 30, and that's that. Taken for granted,  a bit.

They are very important goals. And he's actually been passing the puck noticeably lately. 

Noticed this too, the one he should have sent to Sheary for the Hattie tonight, notwithstanding.

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17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The fact that Olofsson is legitimately entering this conversation is a Festivus miracle.

Over the past two weeks he has looked like a legitimate top 6 forward. First one we’ve developed since, what Roy/Pominville?

Noticed this too, the one he should have sent to Sheary for the Hattie tonight, notwithstanding.

Nice pick by....oh. Tim Murray.

Yes, it's completely massive. We have 33% more top 6 forwards than we did heading in. 25% more if you count Mojo (who I do like, I just see him as more of a near-adequate top 6er, if that makes sense.) Because he plays a position with less responsibility (and it has to be stated: his production) I'm actually more comfortable saying Olofsson is a bonafide top 6 player. He has me convinced. At least while he's with Jack, I guess. 

In an ideal world the top 6 addition we make (that's still a thing, right?) is a centre, as I think we have the wings to fill it all out in that case (Johansson to wing). And it would allow us to bring along Cozens properly. 

It'll probably still be a winger, as I'd imagine it's easier to acquire. Johansson could reasonably fill the 2C role in that case, but I'd like his wingers to be quite strong. The RWer we bring in, along with Skinner getting back there, or the RWer we bring in being good enough to play with Eichel, giving us a second like that could feature Skinner and Reinhart on Mojo's wings.

Edited by Thorny

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11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The fact that Olofsson is legitimately entering this conversation is a Festivus miracle.

Over the past two weeks he has looked like a legitimate top 6 forward. First one we’ve developed since, what Roy/Pominville?

Noticed this too, the one he should have sent to Sheary for the Hattie tonight, notwithstanding.

He knew he screwed up on that. Sheary couldn't have been more open.

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6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I still think Skinner is more important than Mojo. We need his raw goals. That he generates on his own line, all at ES. He's working surprisingly well with Larsson, so as long as that continues...ya, I'm going with Principle Skinner. 

@dudacekbrings up a good point about how no one is ever on Skinner in a bad way, for the most part, yet conversely I also find that his importance is often undersold. It's almost like he's caught in a kind of "middle-ground". "He'll get his goals, it's gonna be about 30, and that's that." Taken for granted,  a bit.

They are very important goals. And he's actually been passing the puck noticeably lately. 

Maybe.  And Skinner IS important.  (Which is why he's getting $9MM/yr.). But I'd lean towards competent 2C play is slightly more important.  His play is allowing Vesey and Mittelstadt to make up 2/3's of a competent 2nd line and allowing Skinner to do his thing facing the opponents a 3rd line faces.  (Haven't seen a chart of who's faced who but it seemed that TO and NJ were treating Johansson 's line as the 2 and Larsson's as the 3 - if not, we'll as Emily Luella said "nevermind." )  Skinner is going to win those match ups every day and even Sheary seems to be playing like it's Pittsburgh day which also helps (and works against my case 😉 ) those match ups.

On a separate note.  Now that Krueger has come around to the realization that Botterill has given him relatively better talent at D than at F and has begun to embrace that; REALLY not looking forward to them inserting Okposo back into the lineup.  There isn't 1 of the 11 he's played better than and 7 D is working.  Would hate to see them put an NHL quality D-man on the bench for a 4th liner that isn't needed on STs.  (Not even getting into how screwed his post-playing life might be when he inevitably suffers that NEXT concussion.)

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8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Maybe.  And Skinner IS important.  (Which is why he's getting $9MM/yr.). But I'd lean towards competent 2C play is slightly more important.  His play is allowing Vesey and Mittelstadt to make up 2/3's of a competent 2nd line and allowing Skinner to do his thing facing the opponents a 3rd line faces.  (Haven't seen a chart of who's faced who but it seemed that TO and NJ were treating Johansson 's line as the 2 and Larsson's as the 3 - if not, we'll as Emily Luella said "nevermind." )  Skinner is going to win those match ups every day and even Sheary seems to be playing like it's Pittsburgh day which also helps (and works against my case 😉 ) those match ups.

On a separate note.  Now that Krueger has come around to the realization that Botterill has given him relatively better talent at D than at F and has begun to embrace that; REALLY not looking forward to them inserting Okposo back into the lineup.  There isn't 1 of the 11 he's played better than and 7 D is working.  Would hate to see them put an NHL quality D-man on the bench for a 4th liner that isn't needed on STs.  (Not even getting into how screwed his post-playing life might be when he inevitably suffers that NEXT concussion.)

I agree. They should utilize the D man in a move for a forward if they can, or continue playing it like they are with 7 dressed until they do. 

Edited by Thorny

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38 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Because, unlike every other player on the roster not named Eichel, he can competently fill the #2C role.

That doesn't make him the 2nd best player.  Heck, it doesn't even make him the 2nd most important player - that distinction at present goes to Ullmark.  (Would still put him behind (in no particular order) Reinhart and Skinner and would say Olofsson is nipping hard at his heels for the distinction of 2nd best player distinction.)

But, considering the lack of top 6 C's on this roster, he is the 2nd most important forward.

So since the question was who is the 2nd best forward, we agree.

No argument that Ullmark has been very good lately and definitely part of the reason, although Scandella and Bogo and the general competent play of the D has contributed. 

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14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So since the question was who is the 2nd best forward, we agree.

No argument that Ullmark has been very good lately and definitely part of the reason, although Scandella and Bogo and the general competent play of the D has contributed. 

We do agree that he is the 2nd most important forward.  As you pointed out however, the question was "who is the 2nd BEST forward.". Though those 2 can be the same, they aren't necessarily so and in this particular instance we disagree on who that 2nd best player is.

"Most valuable" and "best" are oftentimes misconstrued as being equivalent.  They aren't.  Pure talent in isolation is what makes someone better than his peers.  How that talent interacts with those of his teammates is what makes someone more valuable than his peers.

Reinhart is likely the 2nd best forward but if he isn't Skinner is.  IMHO, the team though likely could survive Reinhart's brief absence better than either Skinner or Johansson being out a handful of games as the sublime things he does can likely be replaced by committee briefly better than the more overt things that Jeff and Marcus do.

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I am going Reinhart or Olofsson. I was worried about Olofsson as November began but dear lord. You can't spell Victory without Victor. 

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23 hours ago, Taro T said:

We do agree that he is the 2nd most important forward.  As you pointed out however, the question was "who is the 2nd BEST forward.". Though those 2 can be the same, they aren't necessarily so and in this particular instance we disagree on who that 2nd best player is.

"Most valuable" and "best" are oftentimes misconstrued as being equivalent.  They aren't.  Pure talent in isolation is what makes someone better than his peers.  How that talent interacts with those of his teammates is what makes someone more valuable than his peers.

Reinhart is likely the 2nd best forward but if he isn't Skinner is.  IMHO, the team though likely could survive Reinhart's brief absence better than either Skinner or Johansson being out a handful of games as the sublime things he does can likely be replaced by committee briefly better than the more overt things that Jeff and Marcus do.

I see your distinction, but I wouldn't make it. To me "best" can mean too many things but "most important" is simply that, most important and thus for me best. 

If a team wins with less skilled players that somehow fit together or do the little things that matter, if it works as a better unit, they are the players you play imo, regardless of whether or not you have so called "better" or more "talented" players on the roster. 

Winning IS everything. 

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On 12/3/2019 at 8:20 AM, LGR4GM said:

I am going Reinhart or Olofsson. I was worried about Olofsson as November began but dear lord. You can't spell Victory without Victor. 

I like his game away from the puck.  He is great at finding creases in the defense to move through to get space.  As this season continue, Jack and Sam will continue to improve their awareness of where VO is and this should generate more offense.

 Asplund did something similar against NJ and was rewarded with his first goal.

As to Skinner, I don't get on him when he slumps some because I understood what we were getting when Jbot acquired him but in reality he is so much more then I thought he was.  He is the best edge skater I have ever seen.  Jack is faster, but no one is close to his ability on skates.  He also has a continuous motor.  We talk about Marchand and his mouth and motor.  Skinner isn’t really that much different.  Jeff isn't as obnoxious nor does he take Marchand's cheap shots, and isn't quite the high end player Marchand has developed into. However, I'm thrilled he is a Sabres. 

 

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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