How badly did the tank fail?

[Jacque Richard]

5 years later were last in the league watching as an expansion team is being seriously considered a Stanley Cup Contender and Donald Trump is president.

 

This is truly the worst timeline.

no kidding, I have doubts after 47 yrs

[apuszczalowski]

But did they tank TO GET CROSBY ( N S' wording)? I don't see how they could have, as there wasn't a season before the Crosby draft. The Sabres had the same odds of getting Sid. If they had, would you say the Sabres tanked to get him?

Everyone confuse (or associates) being bad or rebuilding as tanking.

Teams are bad, and those teams usually sell off assetts to help rebuild, but today thats always called tanking

Tanking is when a team goes into the season without intending to compete and intentionally tries to be the worst in order to obtain the #1 overall pick.

 

The Pens being in poor financial position and selling off assetts to avoid bankruptcy does not mean they were tanking, and as you said, no one tanked for Crosby because it wasn't possible since the lockout occured that year.

[Billznut]

I think the biggest difference we will see going forward between TM and Botterill is that TM was more than willing to trade away 1st and 2nd round picks. In retrospect, that was a huge mistake as Lehner, O’Reilly and the Kane trade hasn’t made us close to being a good team. I will be shocked if Botterill trades a 1st round pick at any point in the next 3-4 years. Maybe more.

[GASabresIUFAN]

They were so bad they made the playoffs in 2013 and were an epic 3rd period collapse away from knocking out the Bruins.........

 

 

So you consider one playoff appearance in 11 years succeeding?  By your definition the Sabres are fantastic with 4 appearances including a President's Trophy and 2 conference final appearances during the same 11 year period.  

[nfreeman]

They didn’t make the playoffs in 2013. They made the playoffs in 2010 and 2011. They were beating Philly 3-2 in 2011, with the chance to close out the series in game 6 at home, and were leading in the 3rd period, but lost that game in OT on a goal by Ville Freaking Leino and then went to pieces in game 7 and the entire next season.

 

That reaction in crunch time was emblematic of that team post Black Sunday and is why there is some truth to Robvy’s assertions about that team and how most fans felt about them — ie no heart.

 

But that team didn’t need a tear down IMHO. It needed more guts in the top 6. But they hid under the bed in 2012 and missed the playoffs, then started poorly in 2013, Darcy and/or TP panicked and fired Lindy, and then they decided to tank.

[GASabresIUFAN]

They didn’t make the playoffs in 2013. They made the playoffs in 2010 and 2011. They were beating Philly 3-2 in 2011, with the chance to close out the series in game 6 at home, and were leading in the 3rd period, but lost that game in OT on a goal by Ville Freaking Leino and then went to pieces in game 7 and the entire next season.

 

That reaction in crunch time was emblematic of that team post Black Sunday and is why there is some truth to Robvy’s assertions about that team and how most fans felt about them — ie no heart.

 

But that team didn’t need a tear down IMHO. It needed more guts in the top 6. But they hid under the bed in 2012 and missed the playoffs, then started poorly in 2013, Darcy and/or TP panicked and fired Lindy, and then they decided to tank.

He was talking about Toronto.

[Taro T]

They were so bad they made the playoffs in 2013 and were an epic 3rd period collapse away from knocking out the Bruins.........

 

Theres nothing wrong with speeding up a rebuild and using picks to obtain good players

The problem is that they lost out on the reason for the Tank (McDavid), and TMs drafts weren't able to obtain anything of real value. The prospects he drafted (along with most he traded away) really aren't all that awe inspiring or special

 

TMs biggest problem, was that he didn't know how to trade from a position of power. When he saw something shiney he gave whatever they wanted to get it. Lehner was no where near worth a 1st, Ottawa was in a position where they needed to move someone. He should have been able to obtain what he did in the Kane trade for half of what he gave up. The entire NHL knew kane was done in Winnepeg and the Sabres were the only team that would take him of their hands while he was out for the remainder of the season. O'Reilly was also known to be out in Colorado, but that deal was atleast a little closer to being a reasonable deal. He overpaid for FAs (although that may have had more to do with getting them to Buffalo) and failed to really obtain any diamonds in the rough.

 

And in poor coaching hires and its why they are in the mess they are in.

The ONLY reason they made the playoffs was the season was too short for their ANNUAL post-game 50 collapse to knock them out of a playoff spot.

 

So, rather than miss the playoffs, their collapse was more spectacular, which is nice, but propelled the Bruins into the Finals, which is not so good.

[erickompositör72]

But that team didn’t need a tear down IMHO.

 

I felt the exact same way. The concept alone of replacing Ryan Miller would be daunting for any GM, and we entrusted it to a trigger-happy rookie GM. We're still paying for that one.

[Jsixspd]

In 2 years the Sabres will not be a bottom 5 team. So in 2019/2020.

Weren't we saying this two years ago?  The year we start to get 'good' always gets pushed further and further off.   

 

I'm still in "No light at end of tunnel" mode.   I don't think the Pegula "System" for want of a better term, their 'corporate culture' at the top, makes a good foundation for a winning major league team.  

 

I'm beginning to think "It's never going to be much better" with this ownership.   I'd love to be wrong, but 7 years+ and counting, and the Sabres appear to be entrenched as a solid cellar-dweller.  

[Weave]

Weren't we saying this two years ago?  The year we start to get 'good' always gets pushed further and further off.   

 

I'm still in "No light at end of tunnel" mode.   I don't think the Pegula "System" for want of a better term, their 'corporate culture' at the top, makes a good foundation for a winning major league team.  

 

I'm beginning to think "It's never going to be much better" with this ownership.   I'd love to be wrong, but 7 years+ and counting, and the Sabres appear to be entrenched as a solid cellar-dweller.  

 

I'm sensing 80's style mediocrity for a bit.  Hopefully not a decades worth.

[nucci]

Weren't we saying this two years ago?  The year we start to get 'good' always gets pushed further and further off.   

 

I'm still in "No light at end of tunnel" mode.   I don't think the Pegula "System" for want of a better term, their 'corporate culture' at the top, makes a good foundation for a winning major league team.  

 

I'm beginning to think "It's never going to be much better" with this ownership.   I'd love to be wrong, but 7 years+ and counting, and the Sabres appear to be entrenched as a solid cellar-dweller.  

It's like the stories every off-season that the Sabres have the best prospects coming up. I guess we're still waiting for this as well

[Marvelo]

Weren't we saying this two years ago?  The year we start to get 'good' always gets pushed further and further off.   

 

I'm still in "No light at end of tunnel" mode.   I don't think the Pegula "System" for want of a better term, their 'corporate culture' at the top, makes a good foundation for a winning major league team.  

 

I'm beginning to think "It's never going to be much better" with this ownership.   I'd love to be wrong, but 7 years+ and counting, and the Sabres appear to be entrenched as a solid cellar-dweller.  

 

I have to agree with you about the Peglegula System. Interference from the top hobbles any management team they put in. It's gotten so bad that 

Buffalo can't recognize good talent anymore unless they stick a fat #1 overall (or close)  draft choice in front of them.

[nfreeman]

For those blaming ownership: does the state of the Bills, who appear to be finally improving and a real NFL franchise, affect your thinking?

[GASabresIUFAN]

For those blaming ownership: does the state of the Bills, who appear to be finally improving and a real NFL franchise, affect your thinking?

I have never blamed ownership other then saying the Pegula's were fans first and the mistakes they made were from inexperience.  Keeping Regier was mistake 1.  Hiring Patty was fanboy mistake 1 and mistake 2.  This lead to TM, who looked good on paper but turned out to be incompetent, but based on his resume hiring TM wasn't a mistake.  Now he finally cleaned house and hired the guy I thought he should hire instead of TM and that is JBot.  I'm expecting similar competence from Jbot and we are seeing from the Bills.  Same methodical approach.  Same intelligent use of cap space.  

[nfreeman]

I have never blamed ownership other then saying the Pegula's were fans first and the mistakes they made were from inexperience. Keeping Regier was mistake 1. Hiring Patty was fanboy mistake 1 and mistake 2. This lead to TM, who looked good on paper but turned out to be incompetent, but based on his resume hiring TM wasn't a mistake. Now he finally cleaned house and hired the guy I thought he should hire instead of TM and that is JBot. I'm expecting similar competence from Jbot and we are seeing from the Bills. Same methodical approach. Same intelligent use of cap space.

This is pretty much my view as well.

[Crusader1969]

I realize this post was written at a really dark time but winning is now tainted because of the "Tank"?  Do "anti tankers" still believe that the losing culture will "haunt" the team for years?

I'm probably coming across as a pompous jerk but there has to be a little bit of vindication for us "pro tankers" who took so much abuse over the years. Then again, maybe its way too early to be saying "told you so" as its only 20 games in to the season?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

 

6 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I realize this post was written at a really dark time but winning is now tainted because of the "Tank"?  Do "anti tankers" still believe that the losing culture will "haunt" the team for years?

I'm probably coming across as a pompous jerk but there has to be a little bit of vindication for us "pro tankers" who took so much abuse over the years. Then again, maybe its way too early to be saying "told you so" as its only 20 games in to the season?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus, how much effort did you put into resurrecting this?

[matter2003]

On 3/15/2018 at 1:05 PM, New Scotland (NS) said:

The tank was a desperate plan to get top talent in a good draft year and then was continued in an attempt to land a generational talent with a very good consolation prize.  It was a terrible idea and was compounded by an ill advised scheme to try to speed up a rebuild.  

 

As for Babcock.  I am convinced that when he left Detroit there was only one place he would end up and he did.  Thinking / planning / hoping that he would come to Buffalo was not reality.

 

The tank will haunt the Sabres for a long time, IMO.  Possibly forever.  I am a fan of the team, but hated management for tanking.  For me, a Stanley Cup, if it ever happens, with Eichel and Samson on the roster (the two players directly resulting from tanking for 2+ years) will be tainted.

Want to revise this post?

[Crusader1969]

On 11/19/2018 at 11:49 AM, Hoss said:

Reinhart’s draft was considered weak top to bottom.

It produced:

Aaron Ekblad

Samson Reinhart

Leon Draisaitl

Jake Virtanen

William Nylander

Nikolaj Ehlers

Kevin Fiala

Dylan Larkin

Alex Tuch

Nick Schmaltz

Kasperi Kapanen

David Pastrnak

Brandon Montour

Christian Dvorak

Brayden Point

Viktor Arvidsson

That’s just a list of guys who have had an impact or are off to great starts this year. It’s worth noting it’s deep (that’s all your doing, so this isn’t a post against you really) but I always feel like those statements are kinda useless. Especially this far out. The draft truly is a wildcard nobody will ever conquer with any sort of confidence.

 

On 3/15/2018 at 1:05 PM, New Scotland (NS) said:

The tank was a desperate plan to get top talent in a good draft year and then was continued in an attempt to land a generational talent with a very good consolation prize.  It was a terrible idea and was compounded by an ill advised scheme to try to speed up a rebuild.  

 

As for Babcock.  I am convinced that when he left Detroit there was only one place he would end up and he did.  Thinking / planning / hoping that he would come to Buffalo was not reality.

 

The tank will haunt the Sabres for a long time, IMO.  Possibly forever.  I am a fan of the team, but hated management for tanking.  For me, a Stanley Cup, if it ever happens, with Eichel and Samson on the roster (the two players directly resulting from tanking for 2+ years) will be tainted.

 

7 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I won't say great minds ...

But, old geezers think alike.  I was just about to post that this team reminds me of the 72-73 edition.  Young stars just starting to come into their own.  Erned their fist playoff appearance in jsut their 3rd season.  Some vets around to settle things down.  Really started playing as a team.  And just two season later ... well, let's hope that one of these days the Sabres will have a better result in the Finals.

 

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

Jesus, how much effort did you put into resurrecting this?

after 5-6 years of being told how bad the idea of tanking was/is - it didn't seem like too much work at all.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Just now, matter2003 said:

Want to revise this post?

No.

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

 

 

 

after 5-6 years of being told how bad the idea of tanking was/is - it didn't seem like too much work at all.

My post in this thread and the one you quoted above do not contradict each other.

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, Crusader1969 said:

 

 

 

after 5-6 years of being told how bad the idea of tanking was/is - it didn't seem like too much work at all.

We lost the tank, unless McDavid is hiding out somewhere in the locker room. Last years last place was one of the worst teams in NHL history trying their very best not to be.  Dahlin was the reward for that. The Tank netted us Reinhart and Eichel, neither of which were able to pull the Sabres out of the basement until Skinner and Hutton got here. This team was fixed through FA, not the draft.

[Crusader1969]

so if the team is haunted, how are they now winning?

[Thorny]

Tank succeeded. We remained bad enough for long enough to get Botterill and Dahlin, too, and the turn-around ensued. 

Half in jest, half not. The point is, even the wisest cannot see all ends. There are so many variables to consider, there is no telling where the Sabres would be sitting right now had they not tanked, tanked somehow even harder, or tanked less. 

It's the prophecy in Star Wars. Things may eventually unfolded in the way it was ordained, but in a much different way than was predicted, over a different time frame. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

the point is that the Tank did not haunt the team.. losing wasnt because of culture and there will be no asterisk next to the Sabres name if they happen to win the cup with Eichel on the roster.

The Tank was to ensure they replaced the rotten core with young highly skilled players. I'll be the first to admit that I thought they would have been good by last season but I also wanted them to tank in 15-16 season rather than win a few useless games down the stretch. 

I would also say that I would go through it again. In the 5 drafts of the Tank it netted 2 elite players (one may go down as one of the top players at his position in history), 2 very good, if not excellent players in Reinhart and Mittlestadt and a still unproven prospect (Nylander). It also gave us enough ammo (draft picks and prospects) to bring in Skinner. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Crusader1969