Sabres and Concussions

[LGR4GM]

I decided this deserved a new thread.

 

John Vogl wrote a story and it covers Robin Lehner's concussion and the fallout from that going into the 2015/16 season. Also talks with Ennis.

http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2016/06/22/giving-up-the-game-a-difficult-choice-for-concussed-nhl-players/

 

“The concussion, it changes a lot of things in your head. I had a hard time waking up in the mornings. I had a hard time finding energy in my life. It’s just so many different symptoms.”

Lehner has suffered just one concussion, but it was a life-changing moment. While playing for Ottawa in February 2015, Lehner slid to his left while leaning down toward the ice. Swift-skating teammate Clarke MacArthur barreled into the goalie, striking him under the chin to propel Lehner’s head and helmet backward.

For the next five months, Lehner was a prisoner to brain trauma.

“It was a few months where it was really, really tough for me and my family,” he said. “During the summer it got better, then I started to get symptoms again through the summer when I started working out.

Edited June 22, 2016 by LGR4GM

[SwampD]

I don't know what the pro helmets are like, but the helmets we beer leaguers get are a joke. The difference in the padding from football helmets to hockey helmets is remarkable. It must be a cost or weight thing, because I've always wondered why it wasn't the same tech in the two.

 

Football helmets have all these air pockets that can be custom inflated and adjusted. Hockey helmets basically have cut-up pieces of workshop flooring jammed in as padding. I really think they are just meant to protect against the puck, not contact with another player.

[FLYNNSanity]

I don't know what the pro helmets are like, but the helmets we beer leaguers get are a joke. The difference in the padding from football helmets to hockey helmets is remarkable. It must be a cost or weight thing, because I've always wondered why it wasn't the same tech in the two.

 

Football helmets have all these air pockets that can be custom inflated and adjusted. Hockey helmets basically have cut-up pieces of workshop flooring jammed in as padding. I really think they are just meant to protect against the puck, not contact with another player.

Exactly. Its a joke that the NHL has such helmets. There is no reason why they cant mass produce safer helmets.

[darksabre]

The NHL doesn't have safer helmets because safer helmets would look stupid. It's all about aesthetics.

 

The most popular helmet in the NHL is still the Bauer 4500. Bauer keeps trying to kill it, but the players don't want to. Neither do us beer league guys. I wear one too. It's a classic helmet with low tech white foam.

 

I also think most of the modern helmet safety tech for helmets is BS anyway. I've seen studies that show my crappy 4500 actually does better than a lot of the fancier helmets out there.

 

But really, nothing protects well. It probably never will. Not if it can't do it without looking stupid.

[Norcal]

With all the tech nowadays, why can't they fit better protection into the current design?

[darksabre]

With all the tech nowadays, why can't they fit better protection into the current design?

 

You need space. Look at football helmets. They've gotten much larger to accommodate added protection. Hockey helmets can't do that without looking ridiculous. 

[Norcal]

 

I remember Lafontaines battles and Connoly. Recently Ennis and Gionta. The Lafontaine situation was so serious the Sabres basically wouldn't clear him anymore and he forced a trade to NYR.

 

Only recently have people started to come out and talk about the conditions later on in life. I feel bad for the ones who never verbalized it and suffered in silence.

You need space. Look at football helmets. They've gotten much larger to accommodate added protection. Hockey helmets can't do that without looking ridiculous.

 

So no air pads or memory foam kevlar protected type stuff? I know the designs have changed in the NFL, i haven't noticed a real increse in size. I'd be interested to know just how much bigger they are?

[darksabre]

I remember Lafontaines battles and Connoly. Recently Ennis and Gionta. The Lafontaine situation was so serious the Sabres basically wouldn't clear him anymore and he forced a trade to NYR.

 

Only recently have people started to come out and talk about the conditions later on in life. I feel bad for the ones who never verbalized it and suffered in silence.

So no air pads or memory foam kevlar protected type stuff? I know the designs have changed in the NFL, i haven't noticed a real increse in size. I'd be interested to know just how much bigger they are?

 

NFL helmets were already bigger to begin with, so the size change is less noticeable. But if we were to go from hockey helmet to football helmet, that's a huge size difference. 

 

[Norcal]

I hate making typos

Oh , I agree the helmets would look ridiculous no doubt. I just wonder if the NHL needs the same type of protection as the NFL. The collisions are not head to head every play, its more for stray elbows, sticks, pucks and the boards/glass.

[dudacek]

The Lafontaine case is an interesting one.

It seems to be acknowledged that he still has issues. Some say they contributed to his departure from our front office.

Should Buffalo doctors have shut him down before the Pittsburgh hit?

Were the Rangers recklessly irresponsible allowing him to play after the Sabres shut him down?

[Kristian]

The Lafontaine case is an interesting one.

It seems to be acknowledged that he still has issues. Some say they contributed to his departure from our front office.

Should Buffalo doctors have shut him down before the Pittsburgh hit?

Were the Rangers recklessly irresponsible allowing him to play after the Sabres shut him down?

The fact that the concussion that utimately *did* end his career was an accidental collision with Mike Keane, that would certainly make it appear so.

 

Only problem was, the Sabres doctors wouldn't clear Patty, because Larry Quinn wanted an injury prone star player off the books, not because they feared for his health so it's tough to blame the Rangers in this case.

 

They had no reason to believe Buffalo was playing fair with Lafontaine.

[ubkev]

Hockey helmets are borderline useless. Stick taps and little dings are about all they protect against.

 

http://www.beam.vt.edu/helmet/helmets_hockey.php

 

Zero helmets out of over 30 get 4 or 5 stars. Hockey helmets reduce concussions exactly 0%.

[darksabre]

Hockey helmets are borderline useless. Stick taps and little dings are about all they protect against.

 

http://www.beam.vt.edu/helmet/helmets_hockey.php

 

Zero helmets out of over 30 get 4 or 5 stars. Hockey helmets reduce concussions exactly 0%.

Basically yes.

 

I think the protocol of handling concussions when they occur, and treating players effectively, is far more important than any helmet. These helmets are intended to prevent skull fractures and not much else.

[pi2000]

Unless you make the sport no-contact, you'll continue to have concussions.   Even no-contact, there will still be accidental collisions.    Any fast moving sport has a risk, and there's not getting around it.    Nobody is forcing these guys to play.   They choose to play, let them live the consequences.   I have no sympathy for guys like Ennis or LaFontaine.

[darksabre]

Unless you make the sport no-contact, you'll continue to have concussions. Even no-contact, there will still be accidental collisions. Any fast moving sport has a risk, and there's not getting around it. Nobody is forcing these guys to play. They choose to play, let them live the consequences. I have no sympathy for guys like Ennis or LaFontaine.

I'm honestly not too concerned about the pros.

 

Kids and younger players though. That's where I start wondering what more we can do.

[Drunkard]

I'm honestly not too concerned about the pros.

 

Kids and younger players though. That's where I start wondering what more we can do.

Get them started with big ugly helmets and gradually as the generations change everyone will be used to wearing them. Then eventually it ends up that you're just grandfathering in the dinosaurs and once the last one goes the way of the dodo you you make it mandatory. They did it with goalie masks and regular helmets back in the day. Edited June 23, 2016 by Drunkard

[darksabre]

Get them started with big ugly helmets and gradually as the generations change everyone will be used to wearing them. Then eventually it ends up that you're just grandfathering in the dinosaurs and once the last one goes the way of the dodo you you make it mandatory. They did it with goalie masks and regular helmets back in the day.

Goalie masks look good though. Even regular helmets look good now. Big wonky football helmets in hockey? Never happen. The aesthetics of hockey have a huge role to play in the game's appeal.

[Drunkard]

Goalie masks look good though. Even regular helmets look good now. Big wonky football helmets in hockey? Never happen. The aesthetics of hockey have a huge role to play in the game's appeal.

Just wait, it'll happen eventually. You may be a graybeard by the time it finally does but it will happen. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. I'm guessing it will happen when Chet and Muffy see one of their kids get their brains scrambled in Pee Wee or whatever they call the lttle kids leagues.

 

On a side note is midget league still a term or did the PC police run that moniker out of town? I live down south so we don't really have youth hockey leagues down here.

[darksabre]

Just wait, it'll happen eventually. You may be a graybeard by the time it finally does but it will happen. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. I'm guessing it will happen when Chet and Muffy see one of their kids get their brains scrambled in Pee Wee or whatever they call the lttle kids leagues.

 

On a side note is midget league still a term or did the PC police run that moniker out of town? I live down south so we don't really have youth hockey leagues down here.

Kids get paralyzed or die playing hockey every year. Doesn't seem to concern people too much.

 

I actually just saw something today about the level names going away. I think USA hockey just voted to get rid of them.

[Drunkard]

Kids get paralyzed or die playing hockey every year. Doesn't seem to concern people too much.

 

I actually just saw something today about the level names going away. I think USA hockey just voted to get rid of them.

I wasn't aware of that. Maybe you're right. Just seems inevitable to me.

 

Crazy that they are getting rid of the names though.

[dudacek]

Unless you make the sport no-contact, you'll continue to have concussions.   Even no-contact, there will still be accidental collisions.    Any fast moving sport has a risk, and there's not getting around it.    Nobody is forcing these guys to play.   They choose to play, let them live the consequences.   I have no sympathy for guys like Ennis or LaFontaine.

Robin Lehner used to feel that way. Some interesting quotes from him in the Vogl series.

Other interesting quotes from Ennis, who sadly seems to fooling himself (and also reflecting the mindset of pretty much every 20-something elite athlete.

[Thorny]

Robin Lehner used to feel that way. Some interesting quotes from him in the Vogl series.

Other interesting quotes from Ennis, who sadly seems to fooling himself (and also reflecting the mindset of pretty much every 20-something elite athlete.

What did Ennis say that made it seem like that?

[MattPie]

Maybe we could put foam on the outside of the helmet. :ph34r:

 

Helmets are really just a physics problem dealing with taking a mass (the head) and slowing from whatever velocity it's going to match the velocity of the object it impacts. There's no perfect solution as a helmet that's designed to slow a head from 20 MPH to 0 at less than 100G average acceleration won't help much if the head is going 30MPH. If the head is going 10 MPH, it'll slow the head down but not as gently as it could have if it were designed for that velocity. You have to estimate what most of the impacts will be and design it to work there, but there will always by outliers (a head hitting a knee, a deliberate elbow). The bigger the helmet the easier it is to meet the design requirements, but as d4rk mentions, people don't want to be a spaceman. (well, most; my previous motorcycle helmet was on the big side but got great test numbers which is why I bought it).

[pi2000]

Just wait, it'll happen eventually. You may be a graybeard by the time it finally does but it will happen. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. I'm guessing it will happen when Chet and Muffy see one of their kids get their brains scrambled in Pee Wee or whatever they call the lttle kids leagues.

 

On a side note is midget league still a term or did the PC police run that moniker out of town? I live down south so we don't really have youth hockey leagues down here.

I have a kid who just finished PeeWee, he's moving up to Bantam next season. I also have a kids in Squirts. They dont have "midget" anymore, at least not in soCal. They call it 16u.

 

They cannot check until Bantam 12-14yo. It used to be PeeWee 10-12yo. I hate it. The earlier you can learn to hit and most importantly take a hit, the better. The difference in size of the kids in Bantam is insane.

 

Better yet, instead of going from no check to full check, allow some checking in PeeWee, no open ice hits, only check in your own end or something where you gradually ease into it. So many kids leave the sport because it suddenly becomes very violent at Bantam.

[Taro T]

I have a kid who just finished PeeWee, he's moving up to Bantam next season. I also have a kids in Squirts. They dont have "midget" anymore, at least not in soCal. They call it 16u.

They cannot check until Bantam 12-14yo. It used to be PeeWee 10-12yo. I hate it. The earlier you can learn to hit and most importantly take a hit, the better. The difference in size of the kids in Bantam is insane.

Better yet, instead of going from no check to full check, allow some checking in PeeWee, no open ice hits, only check in your own end or something where you gradually ease into it. So many kids leave the sport because it suddenly becomes very violent at Bantam.

They're supposed to allow checking in practice @ PW, but it still is different once game situations allow it.

 

Not a fan of moving it up to Bantam to start. My younger 1 got to check his 1st year in PW & then it was gone the next year. That was strange. Even stranger is ending up in a midget tournament that goes no check so the Canadian teams can play.