The delusion fan provocation thread

[Thorny]

You didn't really just type that, did you? :lol:

 

GMTM didn't really trade away too much imho. He traded some young unknowns for some less young (but still young enough) less unknowns. I know that others got their panties in a bunch and think we gave away too much, but I don't really have a problem with what he's done so far in terms of trades.

 

I feel like I could see this posted and read it a million times, and I would be happy to do so every time. GMTM generally traded away unknowns for known commodities. I hesitate to even call the trades "calculated gambles" as a lot of what we acquired is proven talent. Far from being upset about futures we gave up, I found the deals to not only be good value, but can't miss. If you can acquire proven talent in the age early 20s range, you do it (Kane, O'Reilly).

 

We still have a TON of drafted prospects in the fold, as well as lots of draft picks going forward. We didn't undergo an incredible tear-down of massive proportions so that we could use and develop every single pick and prospect required as a result of said tear-down.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Thorny

[3putt]

That's quite the impassioned post, well done. But I haven't seen many people (if any) saying that we should be trading futures for assets now. I think most people here are at least a little uncomfortable with the number of futures the Sabres have shipped out (Murray was robbed!) even if the talent coming back has been solid. I certainly don't expect to see the Sabres in "win now" mode come February, as GMTM has said a few times that there's a timeline he's working.

In the OP's defense there was considerable talk of shipping prospects or trading the 2016  1st pick for a left handed D.  And that was trade the pick now talk.  I think X (Eggs?) summed up my thoughts, when he stated that his expectation for next year was that they would be better than last year.  That's it.  We are still rebuilding and I was firmly against the Lehner trade for what it cost.  Not because he is not a potential starter, but rather that is the least of our issues while we rebuild.  

[Neo]

 

"It is nothing short of infuriating to see people going on about trading the assets still remaining at this years deadline in hopes that if by some miracle we are in contention for 8th place. As if wasti"

 

Same post on Twitter.

 

Welcome, and well thought out. Shared view, here, on the SabresSpace vs WGR fan base. Dumping Fasching 3 points out on deadline day would lead to a revolt, here, as starved as we are.

 

I'd be interested in hearing more of your take on Kane.

[Thorny]

In the OP's defense there was considerable talk of shipping prospects or trading the 2016  1st pick for a left handed D.  And that was trade the pick now talk.  I think X (Eggs?) summed up my thoughts, when he stated that his expectation for next year was that they would be better than last year.  That's it.  We are still rebuilding and I was firmly against the Lehner trade for what it cost.  Not because he is not a potential starter, but rather that is the least of our issues while we rebuild.  

 

I respectfully disagree. Not so much as a commentary on Lehner (although I do think he has very good potential) but because if he is what Murray thinks he is/can be, I don't think he is addressing a need that could be considered the least of our issues at all. A quality goaltender can provide much confidence to young players on the roster, whether by masking the mistake of a young defenseman by making a timely save, or allowing the forwards to play their natural offensive game because they are confident in their man between the pipes.

 

Aside from all that, Lehner himself is a young goalie. He has an opportunity to grow with our young core and be a part of it. Better to get that guy in the crease now, when he was made available. If GMTM truly believes in him, which I'm sure he does, why wait and risk not being able to get your guy in the future.

 

To me, the premise of adding a young, potential starter for the crease at the current time, is a solid one. It comes down to whether or not you like the guy Tim chose.

[woods-racer]

 

 

To me, the premise of adding a young, potential starter for the crease at the current time, is a solid one. It comes down to whether or not you like the guy Tim chose.

 

 

All true, but you forgot the cost.

 

Was the goaltender worth a first and taking on an overpriced aging player?

 

We have only to trust in GMTM's judgment, because from the outside looking in this trade looks the most costly for the return.

[LGR4GM]

 

Lets Assume Sam Reinhart maxes out at his proper elite top 6 potential,

 

Sam Reinhart will be fine!!!

[Thorny]

All true, but you forgot the cost.

 

Was the goaltender worth a first and taking on an overpriced aging player?

 

We have only to trust in GMTM's judgment, because from the outside looking in this trade looks the most costly for the return.

 

I don't have the data on hand, but I believe the chances that a 21st overall pick plays as many games as Lehner has/will is something like 50/50. So it's a coin flip NHLer, probably 3 years away, for a goalie who while not exactly a proven commodity, has played games in the NHL as a starter and is regarded to have a good amount of potential. It's a risk worth taking.

 

I feel that draft picks are sometimes overvalued. The allure of the "surprise box" over the certain commodity.

 

As for the cap dump, it doesn't diminish the value of the trade. It's only a one year deal that is easily affordable for where we are in regards to the cap right now, and Legwand may even prove to be a serviceable 4th liner.

[WildCard]

Sam Reinhart will be fine!!!

It's been too long, glad to see this again  :beer:

[Weave]

I don't have the data on hand, but I believe the chances that a 21st overall pick plays as many games as Lehner has/will is something like 50/50. So it's a coin flip NHLer, probably 3 years away, for a goalie who while not exactly a proven commodity, has played games in the NHL as a starter and is regarded to have a good amount of potential. It's a risk worth taking.

 

I feel that draft picks are sometimes overvalued. The allure of the "surprise box" over the certain commodity.

 

As for the cap dump, it doesn't diminish the value of the trade. It's only a one year deal that is easily affordable for where we are in regards to the cap right now, and Legwand may even prove to be a serviceable 4th liner.

 

All of this.

[3putt]

I respectfully disagree. Not so much as a commentary on Lehner (although I do think he has very good potential) but because if he is what Murray thinks he is/can be, I don't think he is addressing a need that could be considered the least of our issues at all. A quality goaltender can provide much confidence to young players on the roster, whether by masking the mistake of a young defenseman by making a timely save, or allowing the forwards to play their natural offensive game because they are confident in their man between the pipes.

 

Aside from all that, Lehner himself is a young goalie. He has an opportunity to grow with our young core and be a part of it. Better to get that guy in the crease now, when he was made available. If GMTM truly believes in him, which I'm sure he does, why wait and risk not being able to get your guy in the future.

 

To me, the premise of adding a young, potential starter for the crease at the current time, is a solid one. It comes down to whether or not you like the guy Tim chose.

Your respect is appreciated. Nice to know some things don't change. My position is that gt is highly overrated. The Hawks made Niemi and not vice versa.  If you are loaded up front goaltending can be average and you still can win the prize. 

All of this.

Gt is overrated. Clap clap clap clap. 

[I am Defecting]

I did... more of a general idea to support my stupid pun  :ph34r:

 

Oh, Gurle, ne cheil mal han ono lul hangook mal i ya

 

I've been thinking of retiring.  You seem like the perfect replacement.

 

Stick with it for two weeks, buddy, while I phase out.  Then it's your show to run.

 

Got it?

[nobody]

Can we get back to this candy draft?  When did I miss this?

[Weave]

Your respect is appreciated. Nice to know some things don't change. My position is that gt is highly overrated. The Hawks made Niemi and not vice versa.  If you are loaded up front goaltending can be average and you still can win the prize. 

Gt is overrated. Clap clap clap clap. 

 

You know what else is overrated? 21st overall draft picks.  Look at the selections from the last 15 years.  Coin toss is being charitable.  That pick was the definition of a gamble.  We got a known commodity (an average goaltender no less, so you can sleep easy) for a pick with less than a 50/50 chance of developing into an NHL player.  I don't get the angst.

Edited August 5, 2015 by weave

[woods-racer]

I don't have the data on hand, but I believe the chances that a 21st overall pick plays as many games as Lehner has/will is something like 50/50. So it's a coin flip NHLer, probably 3 years away, for a goalie who while not exactly a proven commodity, has played games in the NHL as a starter and is regarded to have a good amount of potential. It's a risk worth taking.

 

I feel that draft picks are sometimes overvalued. The allure of the "surprise box" over the certain commodity.

 

As for the cap dump, it doesn't diminish the value of the trade. It's only a one year deal that is easily affordable for where we are in regards to the cap right now, and Legwand may even prove to be a serviceable 4th liner.

 

The flip to this is that a good goalie is often times had in late round pick ups. Using a 1st is a waste of the 50/50 chance on every other position, so your argument has more merit for every other position except goalie and especially a goalie with a head injury. 

 

The *certain commodity* is the not entirely truth full in this case with a total of 86 NHL games played, he ranks as certain of a commodity as Zadorov and Grigorenko .

Can we get back to this candy draft?  When did I miss this?

 

Nobody missed it.

You know what else is overrated? 21st overall draft picks.  Look at the selections from the last 15 years.  Coin toss is being charitable.  That pick was the definition of a gamble.  We got a known commodity (an average goaltender no less, so you can sleep easy) for a pick with less than a 50/50 chance of developing into an NHL player.  I don't get the angst.

 

No angst, just not as assured of a reasonable outcome as GMTM other moves.

[Thorny]

The flip to this is that a good goalie is often times had in late round pick ups. Using a 1st is a waste of the 50/50 chance on every other position, so your argument has more merit for every other position except goalie and especially a goalie with a head injury. 

 

The *certain commodity* is the not entirely truth full in this case with a total of 86 NHL games played, he ranks as certain of a commodity as Zadorov and Grigorenko .

 

Nobody missed it.

 

No angst, just not as assured of a reasonable outcome as GMTM other moves.

 

Your point about Lehner only playing 86 games is well taken. Although he has played more games than Zadorov and Grigorenko, and 80+ games for a netminder is more than 80+ for a skater, as often times with young skaters they are only playing a few minutes a game, while the goalie is usually in for all 60.

 

Lehner still is a much more proven commodity than a pick which will more likely not have a lasting impact in the NHL, and for that I am happy with the trade. It's all well and good to say you can get a goalie with a later pick, but the odds of that pick turning into a starter are much, much lower than Lehner lasting as the starter.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Thorny

[3putt]

You know what else is overrated? 21st overall draft picks.  Look at the selections from the last 15 years.  Coin toss is being charitable.  That pick was the definition of a gamble.  We got a known commodity (an average goaltender no less, so you can sleep easy) for a pick with less than a 50/50 chance of developing into an NHL player.  I don't get the angst.

At 21.we.could have gotten a left d. Will he make it who knows. Will Lehner make it? Who knows?  But I think gt is still moee overrated than selecting a prospect in a deep draft. To each his own. 

Edited August 5, 2015 by 3putt

[Thorny]

At 21.we.could have gotten a left d. Will he make it who knows. Will Lehner make it? Who knows?  But I think gt is still moee overrated than selecting a prospect in a deep draft. To each his own. 

 

It seems like Brendan Guhle is a LHD that Murray and Co. are very high on, perhaps he was the target all along, and they knew they could get him in round 2.

[Huckleberry]

You pointed out the stars, but their D is as weak if not weaker than ours.  And their goalie situation i wouldn't call better either.

 

As for compher being a piece to much, its probably what got us McGinn in return.    Rather have a proven NHL'r than a prospect.

Allthough the Lehner trade might be overpayment at the moment, if he is our #1 in 2 yrs with a Stanley cup it will make Murray look like a genious.

Our prospect pool was so good and big, people forget in the end 50 contracts is your max and you can't win it with 18-24 yr olds only.  I am happy about these trades if we didn't do them we would have to wait atleast 5 years before we take a run or even make the playoffs.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Heimdall

[deluca67]

Can we get back to this candy draft?  When did I miss this?

Hersey Bar with Almonds is the Jack Eichel of candy.  

You pointed out the stars, but their D is as weak if not weaker than ours.  And their goalie situation i wouldn't call better either.

 

As for compher being a piece to much, its probably what got us McGinn in return.    Rather have a proven NHL'r than a prospect.

Allthough the Lehner trade might be overpayment at the moment, if he is our #1 in 2 yrs with a Stanley cup it will make Murray look like a genious.

Our prospect pool was so good and big, people forget in the end 50 contracts is your max and you can't win it with 18-24 yr olds only.  I am happy about these trades if we didn't do them we would have to wait atleast 5 years before we take a run or even make the playoffs.

I'd take Lehtonen and Niemi over what the Sabres currently have. 

[Huckleberry]

Hersey Bar with Almonds is the Jack Eichel of candy.  

I'd take Lehtonen and Niemi over what the Sabres currently have. 

 

Niemi I can understand, lehtonen is often injured, goes on a good run for few games but to many highs and lows.

[deluca67]

Niemi I can understand, lehtonen is often injured, goes on a good run for few games but to many highs and lows.

Right now the Sabres have nothing in goal but hope and potential. As of today, the Stars have a level of goal-tending the Sabres can only hope for. It's like comparing the Bills QB's to that of Miami and Cincinnati. They may not have elite QB's, compared to the Bills they might as well be. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by DeLuca1967

[Thorny]

Right now the Sabres have nothing in goal but hope and potential. As of today, the Stars have a level of goal-tending the Sabres can only hope for. It's like comparing the Bills QB'

s to that of Miami and Cincinnati. They may not have elite QB's, compared to the Bills they might as well be. 

 

Great avatar and signature quote!

[thewookie1]

I agree we shouldn't decide to go all in this year and start mortgaging the future, but I think you are selling many Sabres short.

 

ROR is certainly a Top 6 forward, and would be on any team.

Eichel will almost certainly be one.

Moulson is a legit Top 6 if he returns to form this year. (The guy has 205 pts in the last 4 seasons)

Ennis has all the makings of a Top 6 guy, Gionta is a former Top 6 guy, Girgs is more or less a Top 9 guy varying where he ends up.

Kane is certainly Top line material if he returns to form as well.

 

I agree we shouldn't going and buy rental players at the deadline, but we didn't utterly doom ourselves this past few months. Drafting skilled players alone will never lead you to the Cup, just look at Edmonton. You need a good mix of vets to player alongside the youngsters. Plus ROR and Kane aren't ancient....

[MattPie]

I agree we shouldn't decide to go all in this year and start mortgaging the future, but I think you are selling many Sabres short.

 

ROR is certainly a Top 6 forward, and would be on any team.

Eichel will almost certainly be one.

Moulson is a legit Top 6 if he returns to form this year. (The guy has 205 pts in the last 4 seasons)

Ennis has all the makings of a Top 6 guy, Gionta is a former Top 6 guy, Girgs is more or less a Top 9 guy varying where he ends up.

Kane is certainly Top line material if he returns to form as well.

 

I agree we shouldn't going and buy rental players at the deadline, but we didn't utterly doom ourselves this past few months. Drafting skilled players alone will never lead you to the Cup, just look at Edmonton. You need a good mix of vets to player alongside the youngsters. Plus ROR and Kane aren't ancient....

 

I agree with most of what you said, other than Edmonton. IMHO, Edmonton isn't where they are because they keep drafting skill players, they're where they are because they keep drafting the exact same skill player. They really need to trade one or two of their top-skill guys for skilled, gritty, scoring forwards.and skilled D.

[Fidelio]

"It is nothing short of infuriating to see people going on about trading the assets still remaining at this years deadline in hopes that if by some miracle we are in contention for 8th place. As if wasti"

 

Same post on Twitter.

 

Welcome, and well thought out. Shared view, here, on the SabresSpace vs WGR fan base. Dumping Fasching 3 points out on deadline day would lead to a revolt, here, as starved as we are.

 

I'd be interested in hearing more of your take on Kane.

Kane obviously has brilliant physical tools. Watching him at ice level really gives you a sense of just how powerful a skater he is.  However, he has yet to pull together a full season, maxed out at 57 points for his career (and that was 2011-2012), has scored more than 20 goals only once, and seems to be a maverick in the locker room (you only need to look at his twitter account for 10 seconds to get a whiff of what hes putting out).  People cite lack of star line mates as a reason for his mediocre production, but he isn't going to get a massive upgrade with Ennis and O'reilly, at least in terms of scoring.  Last year he was demoted to the third line and still produced (22 points in 37 games, -1), but HE WAS STILL DEMOTED TO THE THIRD LINE on a team that can hardly be considered a contender.  I appreciate optimism, Sabres fans deserve to enjoy a little.  But at best, the book is still out on Kane.  Lets see how he performs when he is expected to be a top scoring presence on a young team night in and night out.