Player drop offs & inconsistencies under Ruff- here are the stats

[Happy Days]

Over half the teams make the playoffs every year in the NHL. Many of which struggle to keep their head above water and spend near the cap floor. The Sabres have spent mostly near the middle of the road. The Sabres have missed the playoffs 6 out of the last 10 years. That is a problem.

[Eleven]

Why did Danny Briere suck in Phoenix only to become a superstar in Buffalo?

 

Why was JP Dumont barely able to crack Chicago's roster?

 

How did Miro Satan go from 40-goal-scorer to a complete bust so quickly?

 

How come Jay McKee never caught on as a star defenseman in Saint Louis?

 

Where is Brian Campbell now?

 

What happened to Chris Drury?

 

Etc.

[Happy Days]

 

 

Well, he did score 32 goals just two seasons prior to coming to Buffalo, and that was in the low scoring NHL, and 32 goals is the most he ever scored with the Sabres. Drury was a 65+ point player twice with Colorado.

 

Good point. I never even checked that.

 

Danny Briere scored 32 goals in Pheonix. The most he ever scored here was also 32 goals.

Chris Drury had 67 & 65 (in 71 games) in Colorodo before coming hear where his best seasons were 67& 69 points.

 

It's not like Ruff took these guys from nowhere and made them great out of nothing. Those guys actually had some similar numbers before they got here to after they were here.

[carpandean]

Superhero listed some of the stats that I was going to show as I was typing.

 

Briere had a great year in 2001-02, then a "down" year in 2002-03, in which he was still on pace for 21G and 35A. The "Briere sucked in Phoenix" argument is way overblown.

[LastPommerFan]

Superhero listed some of the stats that I was going to show as I was typing.

 

Briere had a great year in 2001-02, then a "down" year in 2002-03, in which he was still on pace for 21G and 35A. The "Briere sucked in Phoenix" argument is way overblown.

 

But you have to compare the whole body of work to a standard, right? how many coaches get better performances out of their acquisitions? That is the key. I think there may be several, we just need to see them.

[PASabreFan]

Like the Miller Elite debate, this one never gets old. It just never gets old. It is timeless. An infinity of this debate awaits us. We have truly died and gone to Hockey Heaven.

 

Players always decline on new teams. Lindy Ruff has always been the caretaker of the Overlook Hotel. We've always been at war with Eurasia.

 

Some things are comforting.

[Happy Days]

Why did Danny Briere suck in Phoenix only to become a superstar in Buffalo?

 

Why was JP Dumont barely able to crack Chicago's roster?

 

How did Miro Satan go from 40-goal-scorer to a complete bust so quickly?

 

How come Jay McKee never caught on as a star defenseman in Saint Louis?

 

Where is Brian Campbell now?

 

What happened to Chris Drury?

 

Etc.

 

Danny Briere high in goals was 32 with Pheonix. His high in goals was 32 in Buffalo his high in Philly was 34.

Jp Dumont best goal season in Buffalo was 23. His best goal season in Nashville after he left was 29. He had A 9 goal season In 25 games as a young player in Chicago ( do the math on a full season of that)

Miro had a 35 goal season after leaving the Sabres. How is that a bust after he left?

Jay McKee was a 1st round pick who was never a star defenseman here. The most points he ever had in his career was 17

Brian Campbell is doing just fine in Florida.

Chris Drury had a career ending injury in New York.

What points are you really trying to make?

 

What has Ruff done with his players lately (over the last 5 seasons)? What about the players who are currently on the roster?

[LGR4GM]

Danny Briere high in goals was 32 with Pheonix. His high in goals was 32 in Buffalo his high in Philly was 34.

Jp Dumont best goal season in Buffalo was 23. His best goal season in Nashville after he left was 29. He had A 9 goal season In 25 games as a young player in Chicago ( do the math on a full season of that)

Miro had a 35 goal season after leaving the Sabres. How is that a bust after he left?

Jay McKee was a 1st round pick who was never a star defenseman here. The most points he ever had in his career was 17

Brian Campbell is doing just fine in Florida.

Chris Drury had a career ending injury in New York.

What points are you really trying to make?

 

What has Ruff done with his players lately (over the last 5 seasons)? What about the players who are currently on the roster?

never use goals and points to rank defencemen... its a major reason I don't think Karlsson should have won what he did. Jay McKee lead in blockshots and was a rock on our blueline.

 

Campbell is doing fine in Florida... so you could argue that since Ruff coached him when he was young that that is a result of Ruff teaching him correctly and helping a young player develop.

 

Think of this entire argument this way: Benedict arnold was a traitor, but he is only a traitor because America won the revolution, if we had lost he would be a british hero, wnning is everything. There will be examples that ruff is a great coach and a crap coach. There is no real way to prove it either way. If he wins a Cup then never wins another does that make him crap? Probably not, these days most coaches never win more than 1

[Eleven]

Hell with it. Go ahead and fire him and let him move on to a real team with a real roster. Watch as the real problem isn't fixed by the band-aid solution.

 

The offspring of a three-way among Scotty Bowman, Al Arbour, and Toe Blake couldn't coach this current roster to a title.

[SwampD]

Hell with it. Go ahead and fire him and let him move on to a real team with a real roster. Watch as the real problem isn't fixed by the band-aid solution.

 

The offspring of a three-way among Scotty Bowman, Al Arbour, and Toe Blake couldn't coach this current roster to a title.

I like Angry Eleven. He's fun.

[PASabreFan]

I like Angry Eleven. He's fun.

Quite contrived. I think he has to realize Sheriff Andy is back from the sanitarium. He can put his bullet back in his pocket.

[Eleven]

Quite contrived. I think he has to realize Sheriff Andy is back from the sanitarium. He can put his bullet back in his pocket.

 

No, quite legitimately pissed.

 

Who is Sheriff Andy?

[Weave]

No, quite legitimately pissed.

 

Who is Sheriff Andy?

 

Andy Griffith you silly boy.

[Eleven]

Andy Griffith you silly boy.

 

Oh. Matlock. Didn't he just kick it?

[Weave]

Oh. Matlock. Didn't he just kick it?

 

yep.

[Happy Days]

It's just frustrating to see so many players who come from other teams numbers drop when they get here. Then we see promise in young players that never seem to get to the level of production that we think they could become. Then throw in the inconsistencies of other players where we see there potential yet they don't play play at a quality consistent level.

I know that all teams have these problems to some degree but why is it that there is more of these problems here in Buffalo?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Superhero,

 

I was thinking that this thread would be opening up a huge can of worms, but it has brought some good discussion, so far.

 

I'm glad you took my advice concerning your avatar ... ;) .

[Iron Crotch]

Some of these suggested statistical anomalies are easy to explain. Ville played on a line with Briere and Hartnell in Philly. So, of course his stats went down without playing with top players here. Boyes played with Paul Kariya and Keith Tkachuk when he put up the big number in St. Louis. And he got regular power play time there. Not so in Buffalo. In general scoring has dropped (almost) every year since the post-lockout season. So you can't compare stats from, say, 2005-2006 (6.17 goals per game average) with stats from 2011-2012 (5.47 goals per game). In other cases you're citing a deadline acquisition and pointing out the he didn't tear it up with his new team. But, very few do IMHO, since it takes 1/2 a season or so to adjust to a new system, earn ice time, etc.

 

To me, the only real stat to look at is won-loss record. And, obviously we haven't won a playoff series post-Briere/Drury. Huge pressure on Ruff/Darcy to get the team to the playoffs this year and win a playoff series.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Some of these suggested statistical anomalies are easy to explain. Ville played on a line with Briere and Hartnell in Philly. So, of course his stats went down without playing with top players here. Boyes played with Paul Kariya and Keith Tkachuk when he put up the big number in St. Louis. And he got regular power play time there. Not so in Buffalo. In general scoring has dropped (almost) every year since the post-lockout season. So you can't compare stats from, say, 2005-2006 (6.17 goals per game average) with stats from 2011-2012 (5.47 goals per game). In other cases you're citing a deadline acquisition and pointing out the he didn't tear it up with his new team. But, very few do IMHO, since it takes 1/2 a season or so to adjust to a new system, earn ice time, etc.

 

To me, the only real stat to look at is won-loss record. And, obviously we haven't won a playoff series post-Briere/Drury. Huge pressure on Ruff/Darcy to get the team to the playoffs this year and win a playoff series.

 

Great post.

 

I agree with all you said, especially the last point concerning the playoffs this season.

 

I don't see how DR and LR could stick around if they were not to make the playoffs this year. I can't see Black and Pegula keeping them and still spount off about the ultimate goal of winning the cup, if the Sabres don't at least make the playoffs next season. I can see them sticking around if they do not win a playoff series next spring though.

[Happy Days]

Superhero,

 

I was thinking that this thread would be opening up a huge can of worms, but it has brought some good discussion, so far.

 

I'm glad you took my advice concerning your avatar ... ;) .

 

Thanks. For some reason when I signed up a Connolly avatar was automatically assigned to me. I figured that Megan Fox would be more appealing to the eye.

[carpandean]

I figured that Megan Fox would be more appealing to the eye.

 

Michael J. Fox would have been more appealing than Timmy ...

 

... well, as long he wasn't wearing the Supergirl outfit ...

 

... your choice was better.

[Happy Days]

Ville Lieno had issues with Ruffs coaching

 

 

His comments suggest coach Lindy Ruff misused him and other players.

"There was a lot of pieces that were kind of out of place," Leino said. "Also, they've got to work with what they were given. We have a lot of good players and we're a good team, which we proved at the end. We just didn't get that chemistry and all that right away at the start, and it was probably too late.

 

"Coaches do most of the work, and obviously players want to be better, too. I think we've just got to get more out of everybody, which we did at the end. It doesn't matter who plays if you don't get their talents out. You've got to try to use everybody with what they're best at."

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sa...icle822146.ece

 

[Happy Days]

More Leino quotes

 

Leino's suggested that Ruff misused players, mentioning "a lot of pieces that were kind of out of place" early in the season. He questioned the team's flow, the puck movement from "D" to forwards, the line shuffling, and the lack of team chemistry.

 

The most damning quote, though, was Leino saying he had "to think too much" at times. That sounds like an indictment of Ruff's "system," which often has players overthinking instead of trusting their hockey instincts

 

http://www.buffalone...ticle823322.ece

 

“It took me a really long time to get used to all the stuff,” Leino said. “Sometimes the flow in our game wasn’t the way that it should be. We didn’t get the puck. Our defense didn’t get the pucks to forwards. We didn’t make enough plays. We didn’t have the puck enough. The flow of the game, it wasn’t quite there.

“Sometimes when you go out there and play, it’s easy. It’s just hockey. You go. But sometimes this season I felt like it was a different game. I wasn’t feeling comfortable. I wasn’t feeling like I was just playing hockey. Sometimes I had to think too much or it just was not coming naturally.”

 

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/22/ville-leino-seems-pretty-critical-of-everyone-in-buffalo/

[K-9]

It's just frustrating to see so many players who come from other teams numbers drop when they get here. Then we see promise in young players that never seem to get to the level of production that we think they could become. Then throw in the inconsistencies of other players where we see there potential yet they don't play play at a quality consistent level.

I know that all teams have these problems to some degree but why is it that there is more of these problems here in Buffalo?

 

I think it may seem like Buffalo has more simply because we're so close to our own situation. But I'd be interested in seeing how each team breaks down along the same lines. I'd bet we aren't that radically different one way or the other. For instance, Brad Richards scored 11 LESS points in 10 MORE games with the Rangers this year vs. the Stars last season and with better talent around him to boot. I don't think that reflects on Torts at all as a coach.

 

Welcome to the board, btw.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Thanks. For some reason when I signed up a Connolly avatar was automatically assigned to me. I figured that Megan Fox would be more appealing to the eye.

 

In the latest upgrade to the software process our fearless leader (SDS) set up that Connolly photo as the default avatar. The hope was that it would encourage members to upload a photo as their avatar. Most regular contributors have changed their avatar and, again, I am glad you did.