kishoph Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 15 more years. :w00t: Good stuff Superhero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 More Leino quotes Not for nothing, but the guy is a bum on the ice, but his quotes are gospel off the ice? I don't even think Leino is a bum, really. Looking from the outside, Ruff's system would appear to be hard to learn, which would explain why more often than not, Buffalo is awful until December and then tears it up. The first couple months it takes awhile for Ruff to thru every permutation of forward lines possible and for players to get used to it. :) After the players 'get it', things start to take off. In Leino's case, he seems to be an even slower learner (based on his Detroit and Philly experience). Rental players (which really is what we're talking about with trade-deadline moves) never learn the system since they don't have time. Is the system difficult for good reason or not? Who knows. It does seem like Lindy's teams have the ability to tear it up for extended periods, despite what some call lackluster talent. I'm on the fence with Lindy, I don't think he's ruining people but I'm not sure they can put this system to good use in just one year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 I'm still waiting for stats to show up in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Over half the teams make the playoffs every year in the NHL. Many of which struggle to keep their head above water and spend near the cap floor. The Sabres have spent mostly near the middle of the road. The Sabres have missed the playoffs 6 out of the last 10 years. That is a problem. Since we really only need to be concerned about the Eastern conference, let's look at those teams. I immediately throw out the weakest division in hockey, the Southeast. But Washington did make the 7th spot last year... at one of the highest cap levels in the game. The Panthers made it, but they've been spending too. Still, they were a long shot, we'll see how long it lasts. The only team in there is Ottawa at 8th. The perennial losers? Islanders, Leafs, Carolina, Winnepeg(Atlanta)... Essentially in the East the teams that are pretty solid are the Bruins, Rangers, Flyers, Devils, Pens. The rest is a toss up. None of those teams fit your description. The last 3 spots rotate.. probably on about the same 6 of 10 you put out there. It's just frustrating to see so many players who come from other teams numbers drop when they get here. Then we see promise in young players that never seem to get to the level of production that we think they could become. Then throw in the inconsistencies of other players where we see there potential yet they don't play play at a quality consistent level. I know that all teams have these problems to some degree but why is it that there is more of these problems here in Buffalo? How do you know this? The Sabres just signed Kevin Porter, Hobey-Baker winner... Colorado couldn't make him a star. Hodgson was a top pick and Vancouver couldn't make him a star. McGinn was traded from San Jose to Colorado last year and suddenly became a force. My point is that you are speculating which is the furthest thing from statistics and then worse you are not even backing it up with any comparative reference. Go examine other teams and see what happens. I'm still waiting for stats to show up in this thread. Yup, me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Not for nothing, but the guy is a bum on the ice, but his quotes are gospel off the ice? I don't even think Leino is a bum, really. Looking from the outside, Ruff's system would appear to be hard to learn, which would explain why more often than not, Buffalo is awful until December and then tears it up. The first couple months it takes awhile for Ruff to thru every permutation of forward lines possible and for players to get used to it. :) After the players 'get it', things start to take off. In Leino's case, he seems to be an even slower learner (based on his Detroit and Philly experience). Rental players (which really is what we're talking about with trade-deadline moves) never learn the system since they don't have time. Is the system difficult for good reason or not? Who knows. It does seem like Lindy's teams have the ability to tear it up for extended periods, despite what some call lackluster talent. I'm on the fence with Lindy, I don't think he's ruining people but I'm not sure they can put this system to good use in just one year. I'll add to this. Leino complained of defense not able to get the puck to forwards. Not only is that a two way street (being in position and accustomed to playing with your D), but if our top puck-moving defensemen are injured (see: Ehrhoff, Myers), it's easy to guess what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChimp Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 All I know is this. If I went to some foriegn country and hopped into a sports bar, and the folks at the bar all bragged that their city had a sports team that had kept their coach and GM for 15+ years, the first thing I would do would be to turn around and scan the walls for championship posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yup, me too. Yup me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 I recall Lindy Ruff saying AHL rookies of the year usually become as top 6 forwards in the NHL. Nathan Gerbe, Tyler Ennis, and Luke Adam each won AHL rookie of the year. Ennis started off slow but finished last season well where he could be a top 6 guy. Gerbe had been used mostly as a 3rd and 4th liner but right now is behind Vanek, Foligno, Lieno, and Ott at LW which could put him as a depth forward this year. Luke Adam with the way he finished last season looks like he could struggle to be an NHL regular Why aren't these guys better? It doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Ville Lieno had issues with Ruffs coaching His comments suggest coach Lindy Ruff misused him and other players. "There was a lot of pieces that were kind of out of place," Leino said. "Also, they've got to work with what they were given. We have a lot of good players and we're a good team, which we proved at the end. We just didn't get that chemistry and all that right away at the start, and it was probably too late. "Coaches do most of the work, and obviously players want to be better, too. I think we've just got to get more out of everybody, which we did at the end. It doesn't matter who plays if you don't get their talents out. You've got to try to use everybody with what they're best at." http://www.buffalone....icle822146.ece If Regier and company had managed to actually sign a center, there wouldn't have been nearly as many players playing out of position. The problem lindy was faced with was you have to put four guys in the center position every game. Roy/Goose were the only experienced players at that position on the team. Adam worked out for a while, and we started the season 10-5. But yeah, if your NFL offence was all backs and tight ends, someone would be playing out of position at guard. As for the indictment of everyone trying to learn the system. Almost this entire board agreed that it would take about 20 games for all the new pieces to gel. Due to injuries, this team didn't hit that 20 game mark until February. And sure enough, after that, they looked great. I recall Lindy Ruff saying AHL rookies of the year usually become as top 6 forwards in the NHL. Nathan Gerbe, Tyler Ennis, and Luke Adam each won AHL rookie of the year. Ennis started off slow but finished last season well where he could be a top 6 guy. Gerbe had been used mostly as a 3rd and 4th liner but right now is behind Vanek, Foligno, Lieno, and Ott at LW which could put him as a depth forward this year. Luke Adam with the way he finished last season looks like he could struggle to be an NHL regular Why aren't these guys better? It doesn't make sense. Ennis played 6 games before getting hurt, then came back with 5 points in 8 games, then re-injured the ankle. Then he came back and lit the world on fire. I guess that could qualify as a slow start. But I'd like to see more than one 6 game drought before I call it a problem. Are you really blaming the coach for not making full use of a 5'2" winger at the NHL level? Adam is an enigma. I am as concerned as you. More datapoints like him, and we have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 but, but, Tim Connolly had his worst year last year with toronto.....based on your reasoning one could argue he flourished under ruff. Marc-Andre Gragnani wont be back with Vancouver...guess he misses ruff. Kassian disappeared in vancouver, guess only ruff can get the best out of him... etc... etc... maybe just maybe all those players who joined or left the sabres, got traded because their old team(s) saw their skills going down. does anyone think derek roy is going to have a breakout season with dallas ? you wanna blame someone....start with darcy for drafting too many midgets and medium sized guys who play like midgets that cant win simple one on one battles. i dont think any coach can win it all with heartless "star" players like vanek, stafford, roy, connolly and even tho i like Pommin ville , you can throw his soft azz in there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 It's just frustrating to see so many players who come from other teams numbers drop when they get here. Then we see promise in young players that never seem to get to the level of production that we think they could become. Then throw in the inconsistencies of other players where we see there potential yet they don't play play at a quality consistent level. I know that all teams have these problems to some degree but why is it that there is more of these problems here in Buffalo? A cynic might say the "system" is designed to limit production and curtail player costs in a small market. Those pesky goal scorers are expensive. All I know is this. If I went to some foriegn country and hopped into a sports bar, and the folks at the bar all bragged that their city had a sports team that had kept their coach and GM for 15+ years, the first thing I would do would be to turn around and scan the walls for championship posters. Excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 A cynic might say the "system" is designed to limit production and curtail player costs in a small market. Those pesky goal scorers are expensive. I'd expect a total loony to say this before I'd expect a cynic ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe it's the equipment managers fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe it's the equipment managers fault. You leave Rip out of this...although, he is the only person who could be blamed for all 41 years of failures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 This arguement would be much easier to make if the players left here and all went out and became great players. How many have went on to have better careers playing on different teams? You leave Rip out of this...although, he is the only person who could be blamed for all 41 years of failures... Just more status quo/refusal to change I bet all the goood teams fire their equipment managers if they don't win..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 I recall Lindy Ruff saying AHL rookies of the year usually become as top 6 forwards in the NHL. He may have said it, but that doesn't make it true. Looking at the list, it's around a 50% hit rate. The rest tend to be career AHLers. Teddy Purcell, who won it before those three, just started putting up top-6 numbers last season. Brett Sterling is a career AHLer. Patrick O'Sullivan had one good year and then fizzled out. René Bourque was the last proven top-6 forward, but he won it in the lockout year when the AHL was stacked with talent. Before that, again, it was hit or miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 He may have said it, but that doesn't make it true. Looking at the list, it's around a 50% hit rate. The rest tend to be career AHLers. Teddy Purcell, who won it before those three, just started putting up top-6 numbers last season. Brett Sterling is a career AHLer. Patrick O'Sullivan had one good year and then fizzled out. René Bourque was the last proven top-6 forward, but he won it in the lockout year when the AHL was stacked with talent. Before that, again, it was hit or miss. Hes also on his 3rd NHL team since '05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Hes also on his 3rd NHL team since '05 True. Plus, it wasn't until he went to Calgary that he really became a top-6 forward. Having Ennis look likely in his third year and Adam showing the potential his first year after before a step back puts the development of their AHL ROY winners at about par. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I'm sure it's been mentioned but you all do realise there are several articles concerning exactly this on WGR's web page? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I wanted to yell out to Lindy Ruff in Tuesdays session of rookie camp and ask him when was he going to hire a shooting coach to help the offense but missed my opportunity. He didn't come out for the afternoon session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 just so ppl are clear, Pominville doesn't hit, however I would argue he is not soft. He goes into the corners will go in front of the net and plays hard. Hits do not = touhness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Not relevant to your point, but your comment made me curious about hit stats... Regehr led the Sabres in hits at 172. Matt Martin led the NHL by far at 374, then Dustin Brown at 293. Ott rang in at 278, 4th in the NHL. Foligno laid out 44 in 14 games, which if he had played 82, would've given him 257, good enough for 9th most in the league. Buffalo finished 29th in the league in total hits with 1512. Add Ott's hits, subtract Roy's hits, and account for 82 games of Foligno, it gives us a ballpark of about 1968 hits, good enough to be ranked between 9th and 11th in the league. Get ready for a new brand of hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsrcursed Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Get ready for a new brand of hockey. Yes, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Not relevant to your point, but your comment made me curious about hit stats... Regehr led the Sabres in hits at 172. Matt Martin led the NHL by far at 374, then Dustin Brown at 293. Ott rang in at 278, 4th in the NHL. Foligno laid out 44 in 14 games, which if he had played 82, would've given him 257, good enough for 9th most in the league. Buffalo finished 29th in the league in total hits with 1512. Add Ott's hits, subtract Roy's hits, and account for 82 games of Foligno, it gives us a ballpark of about 1968 hits, good enough to be ranked between 9th and 11th in the league. Get ready for a new brand of hockey. Nice job. Good research. It would be cool if we could trade for Dustin Brown to go along with Ott and Foligno on the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 This arguement would be much easier to make if the players left here and all went out and became great players. How many have went on to have better careers playing on different teams? Just more status quo/refusal to change I bet all the goood teams fire their equipment managers if they don't win..... I can think of one, Paille seems to have found his niche in Beantown. Honorable Mention...Briere had a slow start in Philly but he's an important cog there now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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