The $5.3 Mil Shadow?

[LGR4GM]

I thought I recalled reading that Boyes played some center in StL. Who was the center on that Kariya-Boyes-Tkachuck line when Boyes had his best year stats-wise?

Yes I do think he was a center that year. The only reason I advocate it is because Hes better than hecht or connolly and has played center. Also I am not sure what his skill set is other than good puck control. I can understand though why people do not think he can or should play center but I would like to see him get a chance to in a period just to see.

[nfreeman]

The only thing wrong with Pominville is his contract. If he was making 3.5/4, he would be considered a valuable member of this team. He has been a consistent top 50 scorer and is as responsible defensively as any forward on this team and a part of a penalty killing unit that until this year consistently ranked as one of the league's best.

 

I agree generally with this, but I'd put his ideal salary at closer to $2.5MM. He's probably going to settle in at about the 22-32-54 range for the rest of his career, and he, like the rest of the "top 6" other than Vanek, was invisible in the playoffs last year. In his first playoffs as a team leader, he (and Roy, TC, Stafford, etc.) completely dropped the ball. That's not a $3.5MM player, IMHO.

 

My bottom line on Pommer: good 2-way player, good skills (but not great), good hockey IQ, some leadership (but not that much). Very happy with him at $2.5MM on the 3rd line, could live with him at $3.0MM on the 2nd line, detest him at $5.3MM on the 1st line. (BTW this is similar to how I feel about Roy in terms of which line I'd like to see him on, although I'm fine with Roy's contract.)

[LabattBlue]

I agree generally with this, but I'd put his ideal salary at closer to $2.5MM. He's probably going to settle in at about the 22-32-54 range for the rest of his career, and he, like the rest of the "top 6" other than Vanek, was invisible in the playoffs last year. In his first playoffs as a team leader, he (and Roy, TC, Stafford, etc.) completely dropped the ball. That's not a $3.5MM player, IMHO.

 

My bottom line on Pommer: good 2-way player, good skills (but not great), good hockey IQ, some leadership (but not that much). Very happy with him at $2.5MM on the 3rd line, could live with him at $3.0MM on the 2nd line, detest him at $5.3MM on the 1st line. (BTW this is similar to how I feel about Roy in terms of which line I'd like to see him on, although I'm fine with Roy's contract.)

You think you're going to get a guy with Pominville's offensive skills for 2.5, when an offensively(and I mean OFFENSIVE!) challenged guy like Gaustad is getting that much?

[korab rules]

I thought I recalled reading that Boyes played some center in StL. Who was the center on that Kariya-Boyes-Tkachuck line when Boyes had his best year stats-wise?

 

The only place I've heard it is from a certain poster on here - where can you find career faceoff statistics? Can't find them anywhere!

 

Edit - had to search by team and year

2010-2011 135FO 41.5 WP in 62 games.

2009-2010 311 FO 44.4 WP in 82 games

2008-2009 315 FO 49.2 WP in 82 games

2007-2008 236 FO 44.5 WP in 82 games

2006-2007 93 FO 58.1 WP in 19 games in STL

2006-2007 220 FO 44.1 WP in 62 games in Bos

2005-2006 265 FO 53.6 WP in 82 games

 

Still want to call him a center KTM? He has NEVER played center in the NHL. Don't let that stop you from making things up, though.

[spndnchz]

The only place I've heard it is from a certain poster on here - where can you find career faceoff statistics? Can't find them anywhere!

 

The last three-four years he's taken about 350 face offs on aaverage, not in the top 4 or 5 faceoff 'takers' for the Blues. His FO% is 44.4% those three years. So I'd say he wasn't used as a center. Maybe more Jochen'esque than anything.

[korab rules]

The last three-four years he's taken about 350 face offs on aaverage, not in the top 4 or 5 faceoff 'takers' for the Blues. His FO% is 44.4% those three years. So I'd say he wasn't used as a center. Maybe more Jochen'esque than anything.

 

Over his career he has average 3-4 faceoffs per game - that is indicative of a winger who takes the faceoff when the center gets thrown out. And his winning percentage sucks. We already have actual centers on the team who can't win a draw, we don't need to involve wings who are even worse at it.

[spndnchz]

Over his career he has average 3-4 faceoffs per game - that is indicative of a winger who takes the faceoff when the center gets thrown out.

 

ding ding ding :thumbsup:

[carpandean]

where can you find career faceoff statistics? Can't find them anywhere!

You can find them on NHL.com, but to get them more quickly, I search for the player's name and "SHTOI". The first two or three links will be CBS Sports, which has a lot of good stats, including faceoffs. Here's Boyes' page (same info, different format.)

[korab rules]

You can find them on NHL.com, but to get them more quickly, I search for the player's name and "SHTOI". The first two or three links will be CBS Sports, which has a lot of good stats, including faceoffs. Here's Boyes' page (same info, different format.)

 

Thanks Carp!

[Kristian]

Will you donate 40% of yours?

 

Nope, and I'm not saying he should either.

 

I'm just pointing out that we're not talking about a 3.5 mill. guy.

 

He's making 5.3, and at that price I don't consider him a valuable member of this team, but a rather costly member of this team.

[korab rules]

Nope, and I'm not saying he should either.

 

I'm just pointing out that we're not talking about a 3.5 mill. guy.

 

He's making 5.3, and at that price I don't consider him a valuable member of this team, but a rather costly member of this team.

Maybe we should move him to center.

[X. Benedict]

Maybe we should move him to center.

:lol:

 

 

 

As far as right handed wingers go, I wonder if Brett Hull scores over 100 goals his last 3 years if Gaustad and Hecht are dishing to him instead of Pavel Datsyuk.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Personally, I think he just fell victim to the "core" syndrome.

 

A batch of young players, who came into the NHL from the AHL, to support a veteran contigent of forwards like Briere, Drury, Grier, Hecht and Dumont

 

Also, they came up when the league was strictly enforcing it's "no touch new NHL policy", which along with Briere and Drury, made it a lot easier for these kids to succeed right off the bat. They went to two straight ECF's, and won a Presidents Trophy in the process.

 

During their first two seasons in the NHL, guys like Roy, Pominville and Vanek learned nothing, except how to succeed, and that working hard to succeed wasn't always necessary, as the "no touch" years made it easier for a team like the Sabres to turn on the jets for parts of the game, and still win.

 

Remember how many times the Presidents Trophy team came back from a 2 goal deficit? Wasn't hard to do for a fast, skilled team like the Sabres, because clamping down in the regular season in those days was impossible. Only when getting reasonably deep in the playoffs did the ref's swallows their whistles and revert to something looking like pre-lockout rules, and the more the game changed, the more the Sabres offense suffered.

 

Grier and Dumont left in 06, and the next year Drury and Briere was goners as well. All of the sudden, our no. 1 center was called Tim Connolly. A guy who spent more time on IR than on the ice, and when he did play, contributed nothing at all. This, however, didn't mean anything and Timmy is still here, playing in all situations, and even got a 50% raise in the process.

 

Once the Sabres started losing, the same group of players suddenly learned that it didn't really matter whether or not they won or lost. They were still getting resigned to big contracts, got as much icetime as they wanted, and even got to keep hanging out with their Rochester frat buddies.

 

Also, he gets to learn from a coach who doesn't know the meaning of accountability, as he's in his thirteenth year of his first headcoaching job.

 

To sum up, I believe Pominville has learned the following things in Buffalo :

 

1. You can win without working hard.

2. Losing is of no real consequence, nobody is accountable.

3. You don't have to succeed to land the big contract.

4. You don't even have to play half the time, to land the big contract.

5. You don't have to play well, or even work hard, to get top line icetime.

6. You don't have to play well to be on the PP.

7. You won't be scratched. Ever.

8. You won't be traded. Ever.

 

We can't blame Pominville for being the player he is. He's exactly what the Sabres taught him to be.

 

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

[korab rules]

Personally, I think he just fell victim to the "core" syndrome.

 

A batch of young players, who came into the NHL from the AHL, to support a veteran contigent of forwards like Briere, Drury, Grier, Hecht and Dumont

 

Also, they came up when the league was strictly enforcing it's "no touch new NHL policy", which along with Briere and Drury, made it a lot easier for these kids to succeed right off the bat. They went to two straight ECF's, and won a Presidents Trophy in the process.

 

During their first two seasons in the NHL, guys like Roy, Pominville and Vanek learned nothing, except how to succeed, and that working hard to succeed wasn't always necessary, as the "no touch" years made it easier for a team like the Sabres to turn on the jets for parts of the game, and still win.

 

Remember how many times the Presidents Trophy team came back from a 2 goal deficit? Wasn't hard to do for a fast, skilled team like the Sabres, because clamping down in the regular season in those days was impossible. Only when getting reasonably deep in the playoffs did the ref's swallows their whistles and revert to something looking like pre-lockout rules, and the more the game changed, the more the Sabres offense suffered.

 

Grier and Dumont left in 06, and the next year Drury and Briere was goners as well. All of the sudden, our no. 1 center was called Tim Connolly. A guy who spent more time on IR than on the ice, and when he did play, contributed nothing at all. This, however, didn't mean anything and Timmy is still here, playing in all situations, and even got a 50% raise in the process.

 

Once the Sabres started losing, the same group of players suddenly learned that it didn't really matter whether or not they won or lost. They were still getting resigned to big contracts, got as much icetime as they wanted, and even got to keep hanging out with their Rochester frat buddies.

 

Also, he gets to learn from a coach who doesn't know the meaning of accountability, as he's in his thirteenth year of his first headcoaching job.

 

To sum up, I believe Pominville has learned the following things in Buffalo :

 

1. You can win without working hard.

2. Losing is of no real consequence, nobody is accountable.

3. You don't have to succeed to land the big contract.

4. You don't even have to play half the time, to land the big contract.

5. You don't have to play well, or even work hard, to get top line icetime.

6. You don't have to play well to be on the PP.

7. You won't be scratched. Ever.

8. You won't be traded. Ever.

 

We can't blame Pominville for being the player he is. He's exactly what the Sabres taught him to be.

 

I have to admit that I missed this post - not a surprise considering the timing of the post and the number of posts since then. Thanks to DD for bringing it to my attention.

 

How do you make this much sense at 3:19 in the morning?

[LGR4GM]

 

Still want to call him a center KTM? He has NEVER played center in the NHL. Don't let that stop you from making things up, though.

I am not calling him a center. He is not a genuine center but he does have some experience at center and maybe the sabres should explore that option. "Expect Berglund to start the season centering one of the top two lines. McDonald could serve as the other pivot in the top six, but Oshie and Boyes have experience in the middle as well."http://blues.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=539399 So as someone else posted hes more like a hecht than an actual center but maybe he could help a guy like pommers if he was centering his line is all I mean. If they ever tried it and it didnt work than back to the wing he should go and stay. Just an option to explore.

[nfreeman]

You think you're going to get a guy with Pominville's offensive skills for 2.5, when an offensively(and I mean OFFENSIVE!) challenged guy like Gaustad is getting that much?

Pommer's production has declined steadily for 4 years. He's going to end up this year with about 45 points. That production, plus invisibility in the playoffs, equals a $2.5MM player.

 

Do you think another team would give the Sabres a 2nd-round pick for Pommer? He's a consistent 20-goal scorer. I don't think another team would make that trade, because they'd have to carry that albatross of a deal for THREE more seasons after this one. If that assumption is right, it means Pommer is overpaid not by just a million or so -- it's more like $2MM - $2.5MM.

 

As for Gaustad, he's a bit overpaid, but only by $500K or so, and his role on the team isn't to contribute offensive production the same way Pommer is supposed to.

[LastPommerFan]

ok, as the name may indicate, I like pominville. I agree he is paid $1M - 1.5M too much for his offensive production, but he resigned a contract when the sabres were desparately trying to stop the bleeding. He, like Vanek, may a good payday as a result of the Briere-Drury-Campbell Fiasco. Take out the missed games and slow return from the concussion this year, and he's on pace to score 25+ on an 82 game season. Which, considering how terrible the Sabres were for the first 3 months, is pretty good. I would much rather have him at $4M, but he's not a terrible waste at $5.3M.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Ok after reading this whole thread ...

I understand the thought that he is overpaid ... it WOULD be nice if he was a bargain but he was coming off of an 80-point season when he got the deal and his timing was great considering what went down the year before..

 

I guess I just do not understand the venom for his play ... his contract, a little, but he shows up. Before going pointless in the last 4 games, he had 31 points in 35 games going back to November 27, when he started coming out of the fog of the concussion. He is a HUGE reason this team did not go in the tank when Roy went down. And for those saying Briere made him, he had the 80-point season AFTER Briere was gone. He can be trusted in any situation ... his center has generally not been not a center, it's been Jochen Hecht (if we want to talk about bad contracts) and now it is Gaustad ... he's never going to live up to that salary scoring-wise playing with those guys.

 

Kristian, sorry, not trying to pick a fight, but this ,...

1. You can win without working hard.

2. Losing is of no real consequence, nobody is accountable.

3. You don't have to succeed to land the big contract.

4. You don't even have to play half the time, to land the big contract.

5. You don't have to play well, or even work hard, to get top line icetime.

6. You don't have to play well to be on the PP.

7. You won't be scratched. Ever.

8. You won't be traded. Ever.

 

We can't blame Pominville for being the player he is. He's exactly what the Sabres taught him to be.

... just has no place when talking about Pominville. I am not saying these things do not apply to a LOT of guys who have been or still are on the team, but to say Pominville "learned" these things is just wrong.

He does work hard, he stands up and talks to the media after EVERY game and practice, making himself accountable, which is more than some can say. He played 335 straight games ... again, he may be a little overpaid but his actual presence on the team is way way way down their list of problems.

 

Save it for the Connolly thread and I will agree with you 100%.

[Iron Crotch]

I've always been critical of Pommer on this board because IMHO you have to judge every player based on value. By cap hit, Pommer is the 5th highest paid right winger in the game... behind Iginla, Briere, Kane, and Corey Perry and ahead of guys like guys like St. Louis, Hossa, Dustin Brown, Bobby Ryan, and Doan. Would you take Pommer over any of the guys I just listed?

 

I think Pommer is a nice 2nd line player who is responsible defensively. But, Darcy somehow saw fit to pay him like an elite player, which he clearly is not. Unfortunately, we're stuck with him for the next few years because no team will be willing to pick up that salary.

[Weave]

I've always been critical of Pommer on this board because IMHO you have to judge every player based on value. By cap hit, Pommer is the 5th highest paid right winger in the game... behind Iginla, Briere, Kane, and Corey Perry and ahead of guys like guys like St. Louis, Hossa, Dustin Brown, Bobby Ryan, and Doan. Would you take Pommer over any of the guys I just listed?

 

I think Pommer is a nice 2nd line player who is responsible defensively. But, Darcy somehow saw fit to pay him like an elite player, which he clearly is not. Unfortunately, we're stuck with him for the next few years because no team will be willing to pick up that salary.

 

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

[X. Benedict]

I've always been critical of Pommer on this board because IMHO you have to judge every player based on value. By cap hit, Pommer is the 5th highest paid right winger in the game... behind Iginla, Briere, Kane, and Corey Perry and ahead of guys like guys like St. Louis, Hossa, Dustin Brown, Bobby Ryan, and Doan. Would you take Pommer over any of the guys I just listed?

 

I think Pommer is a nice 2nd line player who is responsible defensively. But, Darcy somehow saw fit to pay him like an elite player, which he clearly is not. Unfortunately, we're stuck with him for the next few years because no team will be willing to pick up that salary.

 

Just curious. What do you think Pommers numbers would look like if he played the last three years on a line with Ryan Getzlaf instead of Joachim Hecht, another wing, trying to center him?

[LGR4GM]

I think pommers on a line with a good center can get back to the 70-80pt range but this season for him was bad. I like him though and think we should trade him for a center so he can prosper on a team that hed be better suited for.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Just curious. What do you think Pommers numbers would look like if he played the last three years on a line with Ryan Getzlaf instead of Joachim Hecht, another wing, trying to center him?

 

Considering Pominville, Connolly and Hecht make on average only $700K less than Getzlaff, Ryan and Perry.....I would assume the numbers would be comparable, no?

 

That Darcy......when are they going to take the shackles off of him so he can show us just how brilliant he is?

[Kristian]

 

Kristian, sorry, not trying to pick a fight, but this ,...

 

... just has no place when talking about Pominville. I am not saying these things do not apply to a LOT of guys who have been or still are on the team, but to say Pominville "learned" these things is just wrong.

He does work hard, he stands up and talks to the media after EVERY game and practice, making himself accountable, which is more than some can say. He played 335 straight games ... again, he may be a little overpaid but his actual presence on the team is way way way down their list of problems.

 

Save it for the Connolly thread and I will agree with you 100%.

 

No offense taken, we'll just agree to disagree.

 

But just to clarify, I'm not saying Pominville necessarily learned these things purely from personal experience, I'm saying all he had to do to learn, was take a look around the locker room. The 8 points I described is exactly how things work with this team, from the top down.

 

And I'm certainly not blaming him for any of it. I think he's a victim more than anything, as I believe he could've been much more than he is today, just like Vanek should be more than he is today.

[heffmd07]

He doesn't have the look of a center in my opinion. He's got very good vision, but I don't think he's the answer for zone entries, or play behind the net.

 

So he's neither a possession type center, or dump and grind it out center.

 

Survey sez: Not a center.

 

. His days as center in St. Louis were limited due to the absurd center depth the Blues have. Would you say that playing the pivot is his natural position or is he better off the right wing?

 

I didn’t understand why the Blues didn’t try him out at center more often. We like having the big bodies down the middle, evident when we moved McDonald to wing and Backes to center and having Berglund as our second line center.

 

For the last two seasons, I thought we should try Boyes in the center lane. He’s solid on the draw, and he’s quick up and down the rink, something you have to be when you’re playing the center position. Many people claim that you have to be a great two way player to play center, as a lot of the time, you’re the one who sits back if a defender jumps up in the rush, but looking around the league, there are many centers who are lackadaisical is moving from offense to defense, and Brad Boyes isn’t one of them.

 

He’s underrated defensively and isn’t as much of a pushover as many claim him to be. I think playing him at center could be a big benifit to the Sabres if he can click with Vanek and Stafford.

 

So CLearly people who have watched him play also advocate playing him at center.