LGR4GM Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I've always been critical of Pommer on this board because IMHO you have to judge every player based on value. By cap hit, Pommer is the 5th highest paid right winger in the game... behind Iginla, Briere, Kane, and Corey Perry and ahead of guys like guys like St. Louis, Hossa, Dustin Brown, Bobby Ryan, and Doan. Would you take Pommer over any of the guys I just listed? I think Pommer is a nice 2nd line player who is responsible defensively. But, Darcy somehow saw fit to pay him like an elite player, which he clearly is not. Unfortunately, we're stuck with him for the next few years because no team will be willing to pick up that salary. Pommers is actually #7 behind Semin, gaborik, kessel, Iginla, Perry, Kane, Briere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Pommers is actually #7 behind Semin, gaborik, kessel, Iginla, Perry, Kane, Briere 8th sorry not 7th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 . His days as center in St. Louis were limited due to the absurd center depth the Blues have. Would you say that playing the pivot is his natural position or is he better off the right wing? I didn’t understand why the Blues didn’t try him out at center more often. We like having the big bodies down the middle, evident when we moved McDonald to wing and Backes to center and having Berglund as our second line center. For the last two seasons, I thought we should try Boyes in the center lane. He’s solid on the draw, and he’s quick up and down the rink, something you have to be when you’re playing the center position. Many people claim that you have to be a great two way player to play center, as a lot of the time, you’re the one who sits back if a defender jumps up in the rush, but looking around the league, there are many centers who are lackadaisical is moving from offense to defense, and Brad Boyes isn’t one of them. He’s underrated defensively and isn’t as much of a pushover as many claim him to be. I think playing him at center could be a big benifit to the Sabres if he can click with Vanek and Stafford. So CLearly people who have watched him play also advocate playing him at center. http://blackbluegold.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/scouting-brad-boyes-chatting-with-a-blues-blogger/#more-2191 This is where it came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I agree generally with this, but I'd put his ideal salary at closer to $2.5MM. He's probably going to settle in at about the 22-32-54 range for the rest of his career, and he, like the rest of the "top 6" other than Vanek, was invisible in the playoffs last year. In his first playoffs as a team leader, he (and Roy, TC, Stafford, etc.) completely dropped the ball. That's not a $3.5MM player, IMHO. My bottom line on Pommer: good 2-way player, good skills (but not great), good hockey IQ, some leadership (but not that much). Very happy with him at $2.5MM on the 3rd line, could live with him at $3.0MM on the 2nd line, detest him at $5.3MM on the 1st line. (BTW this is similar to how I feel about Roy in terms of which line I'd like to see him on, although I'm fine with Roy's contract.) While we are normally on the same page, I think you are way off here. Before this year he had been over 62 points each year and in the playoffs last year he was 2 goals and 2 assists, not great, but hardly invisible. In my opinion he is a "good" 5 or 6 forward, a "great" 7 or 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I don't know if "slides by" is correct......but give him a center that drives net, and he would look like the sniper he is again. A good center would help Pominville and Vanek for sure. There are so many times in a game you can see Vanek looking for someone to pass the puck to; just waiting for someone to get open for the shot or crash the net. But usually they are on the side of the net or behind the play or turning away from the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I've always been critical of Pommer on this board because IMHO you have to judge every player based on value. By cap hit, Pommer is the 5th highest paid right winger in the game... behind Iginla, Briere, Kane, and Corey Perry and ahead of guys like guys like St. Louis, Hossa, Dustin Brown, Bobby Ryan, and Doan. Would you take Pommer over any of the guys I just listed? I think Pommer is a nice 2nd line player who is responsible defensively. But, Darcy somehow saw fit to pay him like an elite player, which he clearly is not. Unfortunately, we're stuck with him for the next few years because no team will be willing to pick up that salary. Well said. While we are normally on the same page, I think you are way off here. Before this year he had been over 62 points each year and in the playoffs last year he was 2 goals and 2 assists, not great, but hardly invisible. In my opinion he is a "good" 5 or 6 forward, a "great" 7 or 8. One of Pommer goals (or maybe it was an, assist) in the playoffs last year was an ENG. He was also a big part of the power play that went 0-fer-the-series. When the Sabres really needed something, he (like the rest of the top 6) was nowhere to be found. EDIT: To be specific, in the playoffs last year, he had one important point: a goal late in the 2nd period of game 2 to give the Sabres a 3-2 lead (unfortunately, the Sabres gave up 3 in the 3rd period and lost that game -- and Pommer was a minus-3 in the game). That was his only point in the first 4 games of the series. So, when the Sabres were watching their 1-0 series lead turn into a 3-1 deficit -- i.e. when they REALLY needed him -- Pommer had 1 point. Then, when the Sabres won game 5 in an easy 4-1 win, Pommer had a goal and an assist (the assist was on the ENG when the Sabres were up by 2). Then, Pommer's last point came on an assist with a minute left in game 6 when the Sabres were trailing by 2 and essentially out of it. So, when the series was hanging in the balance, Pommer had 1 point in 5 games. BTW, Pommer has 2 points in the Sabres' last 8 games -- during the critical playoff stretch. I realize that none of the rest of the top 6 (other than Vanek) did any better vs the Bruins, but I really do think that he was essentially invisible in that series during the times when it mattered. IMHO, like TC, that makes him a good complementary player who should be paid as such -- not a guy that the team can rely on and certainly not a guy who should be paid anywhere near what he's making. I don't begrudge him his money -- I just want the Sabres to spend that money on a guy who does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Well said. One of Pommer goals (or maybe it was an, assist) in the playoffs last year was an ENG. He was also a big part of the power play that went 0-fer-the-series. When the Sabres really needed something, he (like the rest of the top 6) was nowhere to be found. EDIT: To be specific, in the playoffs last year, he had one important point: a goal late in the 2nd period of game 2 to give the Sabres a 3-2 lead (unfortunately, the Sabres gave up 3 in the 3rd period and lost that game -- and Pommer was a minus-3 in the game). That was his only point in the first 4 games of the series. So, when the Sabres were watching their 1-0 series lead turn into a 3-1 deficit -- i.e. when they REALLY needed him -- Pommer had 1 point. Then, when the Sabres won game 5 in an easy 4-1 win, Pommer had a goal and an assist (the assist was on the ENG when the Sabres were up by 2). Then, Pommer's last point came on an assist with a minute left in game 6 when the Sabres were trailing by 2 and essentially out of it. So, when the series was hanging in the balance, Pommer had 1 point in 5 games. BTW, Pommer has 2 points in the Sabres' last 8 games -- during the critical playoff stretch. I realize that none of the rest of the top 6 (other than Vanek) did any better vs the Bruins, but I really do think that he was essentially invisible in that series during the times when it mattered. IMHO, like TC, that makes him a good complementary player who should be paid as such -- not a guy that the team can rely on and certainly not a guy who should be paid anywhere near what he's making. I don't begrudge him his money -- I just want the Sabres to spend that money on a guy who does make a difference. Nailed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Wow, I knew he was iffy in the playoffs but... wow. Pommers could be worth that money again provided he gets a good center for his line, and we all cant forget his Ottawa OT goal in the playoffs either. I think that this year was pommers off year because of the talent hes been surrounded with. He probably shouldnt be in the top 10 of rw wingers but he should be in the top 20 and I think we should hope they either trade him or he finds his form. Its curious now at RW with the addition of BOYES because that gives us Stafford whose shown some signs of greatness, Pommers whose had better years, and Boyes who has looked good in his first two games here... I feel that one of those three wont be on the team on October 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I constantly shake my head at what constitutes first-, second- and third-line players in people's minds. You understand this is a 30-team league? All things being equal, the best number six forward in the league would be the 151st-best forward overall. Assuming an elite team's number six could be top three on some bad teams, let's upgrade that to the 100th-best forward. Do you really think Pominville is, at best, the 100th-best forward in the league? He's a consistent 60-plus point scorer. He's durable. He can skate, pass and shoot. He's good defensively. He's responsible. He can play the point on the power player and kill penalties. He's disciplined and smart. He will not punish anyone and he does not have the ability to dominate. But he does have the ability to play with the league's dominant players — put him with Crosby he's getting 80 points year after year. Guys like that play on the first lines of virtually every team in the league. You let GMs draft from scratch, I guarantee Pominville will be among the top 90 forwards taken. It would not surprise me if he is in the top 50. He is not an elite player. He is overpaid. But he is also, by any reasonable definition a first-liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Still want to call him a center KTM? He has NEVER played center in the NHL. Don't let that stop you from making things up, though. Just watched Boyes play center on the Sabres... so yup never in the nhl and I gotta stop making sh*t up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Just watched Boyes play center on the Sabres... so yup never in the nhl and I gotta stop making sh*t up... In fairness to korab, though....playing out of position on a Lindy Ruff team is not exactly an earth-shattering thing. Sometimes I think draws names out of a hat to come up with his lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 In fairness to korab, though....playing out of position on a Lindy Ruff team is not exactly an earth-shattering thing. Sometimes I think draws names out of a hat to come up with his lines. Fair enough. I started a topic to legitimately discuss whether Boyes should continue as center on this team or not and any opinion is welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 GWG by Pominville tonight. Do we need more threads like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 GWG by Pominville tonight. Do we need more threads like this? Funny thing is He was not voted as any of the three stars of the game. Poor guy cant catch a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 the $5.3 million shadow scored the game winner today. He has been the least of the Sabres problems this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 I think Pominville needs a guy like vanek to feed him pucks because he is only in the scoring position for a split second. Pommers in the last 30 days has 5g, 4a, +2. Now with boyes and stafford both at wing I wonder if they move stafford out via a trade for a center because why do you need to waste salary on that many right wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 I constantly shake my head at what constitutes first-, second- and third-line players in people's minds. You understand this is a 30-team league? All things being equal, the best number six forward in the league would be the 151st-best forward overall. Assuming an elite team's number six could be top three on some bad teams, let's upgrade that to the 100th-best forward. Do you really think Pominville is, at best, the 100th-best forward in the league? He's a consistent 60-plus point scorer. He's durable. He can skate, pass and shoot. He's good defensively. He's responsible. He can play the point on the power player and kill penalties. He's disciplined and smart. He will not punish anyone and he does not have the ability to dominate. But he does have the ability to play with the league's dominant players — put him with Crosby he's getting 80 points year after year. Guys like that play on the first lines of virtually every team in the league. You let GMs draft from scratch, I guarantee Pominville will be among the top 90 forwards taken. It would not surprise me if he is in the top 50. He is not an elite player. He is overpaid. But he is also, by any reasonable definition a first-liner. While he may be in the top 90 forwards in the NHL, he's not in the top 45 -- so by your calculations he's not a first-liner on a top-15 NHL team, which is what we all want the Sabres to be. For that matter, if we want to keep using that methodology, he's not in the top 42 forwards in the NHL, so he wouldn't be in the top 6 of a top-7 NHL team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 While he may be in the top 90 forwards in the NHL, he's not in the top 45 -- so by your calculations he's not a first-liner on a top-15 NHL team, which is what we all want the Sabres to be. For that matter, if we want to keep using that methodology, he's not in the top 42 forwards in the NHL, so he wouldn't be in the top 6 of a top-7 NHL team. Give me 50 forwards that have been better than him since the lockout. I don't mean 50 guys you like better, I mean 50 guys who have clearly performed better. Point wise, you'd be lucky find 30. He'd be as good or better than half of those guys defensively. To turn this around, there is not a team in the league where Pominville is not a top-three winger. And only a handful where he would not be top-two. You don't know what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkempatheticJAF Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 If you had to carry around an additional "M" everywhere you went, you would be tired too... ha! point taken, I don't know why I spelled his name that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 ha! point taken, I don't know why I spelled his name that way... It's better than no m's as in Poinville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Free, by your logic, the top 15 teams would have to have all 45 of the top forwards and somehow not one slipped down to any of the lower 15. You made a compelling argument about last years playoff but by any objective analysis, he is a legitimate 5 or 6 paid like a 2 or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Who knows what evil lurks? The shadow knows! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Free, by your logic, the top 15 teams would have to have all 45 of the top forwards and somehow not one slipped down to any of the lower 15. You made a compelling argument about last years playoff but by any objective analysis, he is a legitimate 5 or 6 paid like a 2 or 3. Again, legitimate five or six puts him outside the top 100 forwards. You can probably look at the Caps, Pens, Lightning, Vancouver, Chicago, Anaheim and San Jose and say they each have three better forwards than Pominville But It would be tough to argue he's not a top three forward on Ottawa, Dallas, Toronto, St. Louis, Phoenix, NYR, Nashville, Florida, Edmonton, C-bus, Colorado, Carolina, Calgary, LA, Minnesota, Atlanta and Buffalo You can debate some of these and the half-dozen teams I haven't mentioned. But by any objective analysis, he's a legitimate three or four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Vanek, Roy and Pominville can by a two-three-four on a cup-winner. It's the one we are lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 I agree with that but I think Stafford will overtake and Pominville could actually end up on a very good third line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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