Sabre trend no one is talking about

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

Again, I’m not disputing any of this. My only contention is that whatever trends are happening in the draft process, it not yet impacted the league’s mean height and weight for skaters. Maybe that changes in the coming years.

This may be true for sure. Players drafted in the last 3 years not in the NHL yet. The trend might not be showing up yet in the stats. Maybe many of these "tall" guys won't make it either. Have to wait and see.

In any event the Sabres are certainly not too small or short on D (lor forward for that matter). Strength is the greater issue I'd say. Let's face it, what happens with Power over the next few years determines a lot of how this D goes. 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Gradual change can be hard to recognize.

Doan and Danforth will get 12 to 15 minutes a night and are very good at forechecking and getting to the net. Along with Tuch, Benson Zucker Greenway and Malenstyn they represent 7 of your 9 wingers.

Pure perimeter guys like Peterka, Olofsson, Skinner and Mittelstadt don’t play for the Sabres any more.

You’re right to say show me, but the push over the last year or two has been consistently in the direction of getting better in this area of the game

They didn’t show it last season.  That youtube video showcased it.  In theory we got 2 new guys for the bottom 6.  JJP is gone, but Quinn is gonna eat most of those minutes on the 2nd line.

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Someone in the last 24hrs posted a youtube video discussing why this team hasn’t been successful recently.  I watched it just a few hrs before it was posted here.  The analysis the youtube poster suggested is that this team is built for scoring on the rush, and taking shots from further out when not on the rush.  It has been their MO since at least Granato and continued last season.  So what you are suggesting isn’t a new path.  It is status quo.  We all know this team does not routinely go to the net.  I am not convinced Doan and Danforth, both bottom 6 guys, are making a dent in this teams “go to the net quotient “.

I saw that video and thought he did a good job with the breakdowns and agree the Sabres were and will continue to be dangerous on the rush.  I still think the changes I highlighted did more to address the lack sustained pressure in the offense zone, willingness to drive the net, and much needed support in their own end than what they were able to do last year.  A big part of the issue last season was there were still guys in key roles that didn't buy into that strategy and impacted the entire team.  

Even without Peterka I think this lineup is more aligned with the game this team needs to play to be more successful in this conference. I also see a lot more real competition for spots and roles than we've had in a while.  Bryson is the 8th dman on my list but I don't expect him to go away quitely, and we might see 10-20 games from Ryan Johnson if he comes to camp ready to prove something.  I'd love to watch some fights breakout in training camp this year when guys aren't giving it a full effort and get called out by the real ones on the team.  

[LGR4GM]

Florida forechecks hard and reloads in the natural zone. It's very effective. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

They didn’t show it last season.  That youtube video showcased it.  In theory we got 2 new guys for the bottom 6.  JJP is gone, but Quinn is gonna eat most of those minutes on the 2nd line.

I realize 'the board' isn't a entity unto itself and I'm not saying this is you.

But it's bizarre to me that "the board" complains consistently that the Sabres don't backcheck and don't get to the net while at the same time wants no part of Doan or Benson in the top 6 and wants to bury Greenway on the 4th line.

It's a fallacy to say this is the same forward group. Doan, Danforth, Greenway and Norris —1/3 of the starting lineup — combined for 37 games last year for the Sabres.

Maybe there is a problem with how they are being coached to play, but the player personnel up front is much better suited for they type of game they need to play than it was.

Edited Monday at 09:24 PM by dudacek

[Weave]

22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I realize 'the board' isn't a entity unto itself and I'm not saying this is you.

But it's bizarre to me that "the board" complains consistently that the Sabres don't backcheck and don't get to the net while at the same time wants no part of Doan or Benson in the top 6 and wants to bury Greenway on the 4th line.

It's a fallacy to say this is the same forward group. Doan, Danforth, Greenway and Norris —1/3 of the starting lineup — combined for 37 games last year for the Sabres.

Maybe there is a problem with how they are being coached to play, but the player personnel up front is much better suited for they type of game they need to play than it was.

What “the board” wants is someone who goes to the net that has proven they can be effective in a top 6 role on a good team doing it, not a couple of kids that are still finding their way towards it.

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Weave said:

What “the board” wants is someone who goes to the net that has proven they can be effective in a top 6 role on a good team doing it, not a couple of kids that are still finding their way towards it.

Exactly. It's not that we "don't want Benson" in the top 6, we just don't think we should keep playing kids in top 6 roles.  Benson may very well become a true top 6 player but he really is just a kid. 

[LGR4GM]

I trust Zach Benson in a top 6 role a hell of lot more than Casey Mittelstadt. 

[JP51]

18 hours ago, dudacek said:

Lafferty and Aubé-Kubel were failures, but I think it’s fair to say they were attempts.

It will be interesting to see how Lindy allots ice time: is the 9 or 10 minutes the 4th liners got down the stretch the way Lindy likes it, or is a reflection of the available players being those guys as well as Östlund Kozak and Rosen.

Danforth got 14:23 and Doan 13:31 last year with their previous clubs

I agree here, I was at least grateful that KA acknowledged that play between the dots and the crease were actually a part of the game... failure yes... wrong idea no. 

[That Aud Smell]

16 hours ago, Weave said:

What “the board” wants is someone who goes to the net that has proven they can be effective in a top 6 role on a good team doing it, not a couple of kids that are still finding their way towards it.

yo whodat, though?

[Thorny]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

Gradual change can be hard to recognize.

Doan and Danforth will get 12 to 15 minutes a night and are very good at forechecking and getting to the net. Along with Tuch, Benson Zucker Greenway and Malenstyn they represent 7 of your 9 wingers.

Pure perimeter guys like Peterka, Olofsson, Skinner and Mittelstadt don’t play for the Sabres any more.

You’re right to say show me, but the push over the last year or two has been consistently in the direction of getting better in this area of the game

Danforth 15 minutes a night dudacek why do you hate the fans? 

[Jorcus]

On 8/17/2025 at 10:29 PM, PerreaultForever said:

It's not hard to understand. With the way the league has gone you want D men with long reach. That doesn't mean you can't build a good team with shorter guys (and shorter guys often have other skills) but that longer reach is useful and advantageous around the net. 

Florida proves it's about strength, not size, as I said. Speed and strength that's what you want. That's how you win. 

 

I don't know if you ment to imply that Florida is a fast team. They are strong and disciplined but about average when it comes to team speed. Certainly not as fast as the Oilers. Just wonder if the the goaltenders were swapped would the narrative be different where people pointing toward speed and skill is the formula and not puck possession teams who just grind on you. I think either or can work. We just can't under estimate how good Bobrovsky has been when it has mattered the most.

   

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Jorcus said:

 

I don't know if you ment to imply that Florida is a fast team. They are strong and disciplined but about average when it comes to team speed. Certainly not as fast as the Oilers. Just wonder if the the goaltenders were swapped would the narrative be different where people pointing toward speed and skill is the formula and not puck possession teams who just grind on you. I think either or can work. We just can't under estimate how good Bobrovsky has been when it has mattered the most.

   

Yep.

The only set piece to the formula is you have to be getting at least above average goaltending when playing the top teams to be able to move on.  Whether it's because you truly have a world class goalie (Bobrovsky, Vasilievsky (sp?)) or just a tandem that plays like them for 20 or so games (Ward & Gerber); you have to have very good goaltending to truly succeed.

[mjd1001]

There is one single thing I think size/height helps you with....without regard to any other talent or ability:  Penalty Killing.

In all the years I have watched hockey, the #1 issue when killing penalties for the guys on the ice (not counting goaltending) is when they 'break the box' and start chasing.  If you maintain discipline, you are likely to have a very good penalty killing unit..

Being tall with a good reach allows these guys to stand in the same spot and cover a lot of ground...get in the passing lanes with just their reach without having to move too much.

A Tall guy with a big-time reach, with just a little bit of basic coaching and discipline, is likely to be a good penalty killer.

[dudacek]

26 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

There is one single thing I think size/height helps you with....without regard to any other talent or ability:  Penalty Killing.

In all the years I have watched hockey, the #1 issue when killing penalties for the guys on the ice (not counting goaltending) is when they 'break the box' and start chasing.  If you maintain discipline, you are likely to have a very good penalty killing unit..

Being tall with a good reach allows these guys to stand in the same spot and cover a lot of ground...get in the passing lanes with just their reach without having to move too much.

A Tall guy with a big-time reach, with just a little bit of basic coaching and discipline, is likely to be a good penalty killer.

Oddly enough (and probably surprising to some) the most effective PKer of the Sabres regulars last year was Owen Power.

He allowed 6.18 PP goals against per 60

Clifton 8.08

Byram 9.68

Samuelsson 11.83

were the other guys with over 100 minutes.

Timmins had more then 100 minutes at 6.92 Kesselring didn’t qualify.

League median would be about 7.8

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Jorcus said:

 

I don't know if you ment to imply that Florida is a fast team. They are strong and disciplined but about average when it comes to team speed. Certainly not as fast as the Oilers. Just wonder if the the goaltenders were swapped would the narrative be different where people pointing toward speed and skill is the formula and not puck possession teams who just grind on you. I think either or can work. We just can't under estimate how good Bobrovsky has been when it has mattered the most.

   

Not true at all.

Florida is very fast but they play a controlled game. They are most definitely NOT a grinding puck possession team. The D is mobile and attacks because the forwards drop. The forwards shoot it in and then accelerate into an aggressive forecheck. They stop the skill offense of the other team before it starts. They are relentless. 

You look at these skill guys like McJesus and they carry it from their end and you think how fast they are, and they are fast, but Florida turns it off and on at the right moments and plays a structured positional game. Without speed their system fails miserably. 

Sabres should play that system. They have the size and speed. They need the will and tenacity. 

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Oddly enough (and probably surprising to some) the most effective PKer of the Sabres regulars last year was Owen Power.

He allowed 6.18 PP goals against per 60

Clifton 8.08

Byram 9.68

Samuelsson 11.83

were the other guys with over 100 minutes.

Timmins had more then 100 minutes at 6.92 Kesselring didn’t qualify.

League median would be about 7.8

 

Not all that surprising.  Jokiharju was a better PKer by the eye test than he was at 5v5 too.  And a lot of why Power and Henri are good at the PK are some of the same reasons that they both stink at 5v5 defensively.

When down a man, you have to play to an area and not lock onto an individual attacker.  You try to move them to the sides, but if not, you're still trying to take up space keeping the attacker from the puck and using an active stick to take away the passing lanes.  They don't change how they play when they're not outmanned.

So, when what you ALWAYS do is the right thing to do in a specialized situation, it makes sense that they're actually better than average in the specialized situation.  And what that's a dumb way to play in general, it makes sense that they're actually worse than they should be for their skill level.

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not all that surprising.  Jokiharju was a better PKer by the eye test than he was at 5v5 too.  And a lot of why Power and Henri are good at the PK are some of the same reasons that they both stink at 5v5 defensively.

When down a man, you have to play to an area and not lock onto an individual attacker.  You try to move them to the sides, but if not, you're still trying to take up space keeping the attacker from the puck and using an active stick to take away the passing lanes.  They don't change how they play when they're not outmanned.

So, when what you ALWAYS do is the right thing to do in a specialized situation, it makes sense that they're actually better than average in the specialized situation.  And what that's a dumb way to play in general, it makes sense that they're actually worse than they should be for their skill level.

Pet game day thread peeve of mine:

The guy who rips the defence man after other team scores on the PP with a “left the guy wide open”

Like WTF man, it’s a PK, did you think he was playing man-to-man?

[bob_sauve28]

https://thehockeywriters.com/sabres-blue-line-could-quietly-be-one-of-the-nhls-best/

 

The Sabres’ blue line can be one of the better units in the league; it’s just a matter of health and the new additions clicking with the returning players. There are a lot of “If’s” with this unit, though. “If” they stay healthy, “If” everything pans out, and so on. I expect big things from the defense this season. We’ll see if they meet my expectations, which is that they help the Sabres get into the playoffs for the first time since 2011.

[Weave]

20 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

https://thehockeywriters.com/sabres-blue-line-could-quietly-be-one-of-the-nhls-best/

 

The Sabres’ blue line can be one of the better units in the league; it’s just a matter of health and the new additions clicking with the returning players. There are a lot of “If’s” with this unit, though. “If” they stay healthy, “If” everything pans out, and so on. I expect big things from the defense this season. We’ll see if they meet my expectations, which is that they help the Sabres get into the playoffs for the first time since 2011.

 It does seem to be a talented top 6.  Coaching is the biggest limiter, and will almost surely hold back any claims of “one of the better units in the league”.

*sigh*

[JP51]

24 minutes ago, Weave said:

 It does seem to be a talented top 6.  Coaching is the biggest limiter, and will almost surely hold back any claims of “one of the better units in the league”.

*sigh*

I dont disagree on the coaching, I was kinda glad to get Lindy back initially because... well I am nostalgic... last year I was left wondering if the game passed him by... I will clearly look to this year to make a definitive call on that... but color me highly suspicious...  I agree that the D is quite talented... its translating that into effective results...  we are talented.. but are we balanced... are we effective... I did not see that, I did not see D man who were able to control the puck and play with the physicality required on a consistent basis to be a top unit in this league, combined with very suspect goaltending (although I am wondering if there is a chicken/egg thing going on here)...  Our hope is that Kesselring brings out some physicality in power, maybe Timmins can be the quy we wanted Clifton to be... and we start to see some balance...  if I am honest, I have no real hope for Muel or Bryson...  Byram is the wild card... I am assuming he gets paired with Dahlin... can he match Dahlin's physicality which is not off the charts, but does actually exist in his play.. if he can do that in a pairing that could be highly effective... so there is hope, but there needs to be fundamental change. 

[dudacek]

Jokiharju was a square peg last year. He’s gone.

Clifton was objectively terrible last year. He’s gone.

The biggest need was a physical RHD who could play 2nd pair minutes. Kesselring appears to be exactly that.

The Sabres sucked at xGoals last year. They added 2 D in Kess and Timmins who measured very well in that stat.

Dahlin is elite and he and Byram were analytically an elite first pair.

Power should have better partners supporting him.

Byram and Power are very talented and now have enough experience where it should start to show through.

Samuelsson can and should be better, will be playing in a lesser role, and is coming in with a lot to prove.

The defence corps is among the league’s biggest and can skate very well.

The pieces seem to fit together in a way they never did with Bryson, Jokiharju and Clifton.

Johnson and Novikov are close and might be ready to be better depth options than Bryson.

I realize there remains projection involved and the coaching could be an obstacle, but I am more bullish on this D corps than any other aspect of the team.

It could be legitimately good.

Edited 2 hours ago by dudacek

[GoPuckYourself]

On 8/16/2025 at 12:01 PM, dudacek said:

Not sure there is a bigger collection of defencemen in the league right now than what the Sabres have, both on the ice and in the pipeline.
 

• Power 6’6”
• Kesselring 6’5”
• Samuelsson 6’4”
• Timmins 6’3”
• Dahlin 6’3”
• Byram 6’1”
•  
• Mrtka 6’6”
• Kleber 6’6”
• Bedkowski 6’5”
• Novikov 6’4”
• Komarov 6’4”
• McCarthy 6’3”
• Strbak 6’2”

 

Is this intentional? Does it matter?

I mean if all of them had a mean streak I’d say it would matter but Power, Samuelsson, Byram and Timmons (from what I read) are all cupcakes. The bottom tier haven’t made it to the NHL yet so until they do I won’t get excited about them. The fact that they keep bringing up Bryson over Novikov is a bit concerning also, is he still not ready yet? He can’t beat out an average player like Bryson?

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Jokiharju was a square peg last year. He’s gone.

Clifton was objectively terrible last year. He’s gone.

The biggest need was a physical RHD who could play 2nd pair minutes. Kesselring appears to be exactly that.

The Sabres sucked at xGoals last year. They added 2 D in Kess and Timmins who measured very well in that stat.

Dahlin is elite and he and Byram were analytically an elite first pair.

Power should have better partners supporting him.

Byram and Power are very talented and now have enough experience where it should start to show through.

Samuelsson can and should be better, will be playing in a lesser role, and is coming in with a lot to prove.

The defence corps is among the league’s biggest and can skate very well.

The pieces seem to fit together in a way they never did with Bryson, Jokiharju and Clifton.

Johnson and Novikov are close and might be ready to be better depth options than Bryson.

I realize there remains projection involved and the coaching could be an obstacle, but I am more bullish on this D corps than any other aspect of the team.

It could be legitimately good.

Dahlin: 509games, experienced veteran defender

Bryson: 254games, moderately experienced defender

Byram: 246games, moderately experienced defender

Power: 242games, moderately experienced defender

Samuelsson: 212games, moderately low experienced defender

Timmins: 159games, low experienced defender

Kesselring: 156games, low experienced defender

Jones: 115games, barely experienced defender

There is one veteran defender in that room and it is Dahlin. I would say that 350-400 games on defense makes you a veteran experienced defender. 200-250 games brings you to at least a level of "knows some stuff" and below 200 you are still somewhat unknown and still learning. The fact the Sabres are entering the year with Jacob Bryson as their 2nd most experienced defender is insane. I suppose we could argue that Byram is that because this isn't counting playoff games (273 total games). Power is right in that mix too but basically Power, Samuelsson are all 1-2 years away from getting into that veteran savvy level of player. Timmins and Kesselring are 3 years from that level of player. 

Also the only guys with playoff experience are Byram and Timmins. I think the defense core has talent but I think it is very raw in terms of experience and it is lead by subpar coaching. I would love to be higher on them and might be next offseason when Byram is in the 300game zone, Power is in the 300 game zone, Kesselring and Timmins are in that mid 200 zone. Samuelsson is traded to IDC where and Bryson isn't on the roster. 

[LGR4GM]

Here is Florida's defenders:

Kulikov: 1018

Petry: 981

Jones: 860

Ekblad: 732

Forsling: 477

Mikkola: 328

Bjornfot: 134

4,530 games played (Sabres have 1,893 games played or only 41.8% of the experience of Florida's D)

Here is Edmonton's defenders:

Ekholm: 884

Nurse: 761

Kulak: 580

Stecher: 560

Bouchard: 347

Walman: 267

Emberson: 106

3,505 games played  (Sabres have 1,893 games played or only 54% of the experience of Edmonton's D)

Edited 1 hour ago by LGR4GM