Trade : Conor Timmins and Isaac Belliveau from the Pittsburgh Penguins in exchange for Connor Clifton and the 39th overall pick in the 2025 NHL Draft.

[7+6=13]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

We see this differently but there's no real reason to keep arguing it. 

For me it's a simpler equation. You take the roster that started last season and then you take the roster that starts this season. Compare and contrast all pieces together.

You've been arguing against the very thing you just posted.  Last years roster didn't include Norris, so let's factor that in with the loss of Pererka's production, etc.

I knew you would agree in the end.

[Dr. Who]

7 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

You've been arguing against the very thing you just posted.  Last years roster didn't include Norris, so let's factor that in with the loss of Pererka's production, etc.

I knew you would agree in the end.

I think the Cozens Norris comparison is a more logical and cleaner one. Regardless, the holdover with subpar coaching is the constant that is hard to explain in terms that do not reflect badly on ownership. Ostensibly, an upgrade on the blue line at the cost of gambling you can replace Peterka's offense with the growth of young players is less favorable if the fella coaching the D is terrible at his job.

[dudacek]

Reimer -> Lyon

Clifton ->Timmins

Jokiharju -> Kesselring 

Peterka -> Doan

Cozens -> Norris

Lafferty -> Danforth

[JP51]

15 hours ago, JohnC said:

Don’t forget the Doan add in the deal. It also addresses the roster construction issue by adding a more physical and less finesse style of player to the roster.

Lol actually I am holding out hope he ends up being the best player in the deal literally for no other reason than I loved his Dad... unreasonable expectation for sure but one can hope he plays a similar game... and that... to your point would clearly help this team... but moreover his dad was a leader and we could use a leader with more alpha game upfront.  I am hoping in two years time we look back at this trade and laugh like how could we have shed so much angst .... but we haven't done much of that lately so its a hope ... 

[Cityo'Rasmii]

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, JP51 said:

Lol actually I am holding out hope he ends up being the best player in the deal literally for no other reason than I loved his Dad... unreasonable expectation for sure but one can hope he plays a similar game... and that... to your point would clearly help this team... but moreover his dad was a leader and we could use a leader with more alpha game upfront.  I am hoping in two years time we look back at this trade and laugh like how could we have shed so much angst .... but we haven't done much of that lately so its a hope ... 

I'm sure that Doan will be a good addition. On the other hand, I'm hoping/expecting that Kesseiring will be the more impactful addition in this trade. If he can become the suitable partner for Power, it will benefit the unit a lot by allowing the other defenders to be more properly slotted. 

[Turbo44]

53 minutes ago, JP51 said:

Lol actually I am holding out hope he ends up being the best player in the deal literally for no other reason than I loved his Dad... unreasonable expectation for sure but one can hope he plays a similar game... and that... to your point would clearly help this team... but moreover his dad was a leader and we could use a leader with more alpha game upfront.  I am hoping in two years time we look back at this trade and laugh like how could we have shed so much angst .... but we haven't done much of that lately so its a hope ... 

analytically he’s one of the top forcheckers in the game + he has very good size. A very late bloomer (went undrafted in his first year of eligibility which is shocking given his name) so let’s hope he develops as a decent scorer. I don’t expect him to approach Peterka’s numbers but if he can get to 70% of peterka’s offense that would be a huge win

[DarthEbriate]

18 hours ago, steveoath said:

Not sure if this goes here or not:

But sure seems like being able to defend would put sabres in a good spot. 

But now we need to post the goals allowed at 5-on-5 the last three seasons combined. 

[7+6=13]

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I think the Cozens Norris comparison is a more logical and cleaner one. Regardless, the holdover with subpar coaching is the constant that is hard to explain in terms that do not reflect badly on ownership. Ostensibly, an upgrade on the blue line at the cost of gambling you can replace Peterka's offense with the growth of young players is less favorable if the fella coaching the D is terrible at his job.

We already experienced not having Cozens and the metrics that I saw show we got better.  His removal has already been at min partially consumed. We wouldn't have to attach Norris to his play from last year.  It's much more logical and clean to compare Norris being added, to the loss of Peterka.  It's the clearer one for one.  

 

 

 

Edited July 26 by 7+6=13

[Dr. Who]

34 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

We already experienced not having Cozens and the metrics that I saw show we got better.  His removal has already been at min partially consumed. We wouldn't have to attach Norris to his play from last year.  It's much more logical and clean to compare Norris being added, to the loss of Peterka.  It's the clearer one for one.  

 

 

 

Well, Cozens and Norris are both centers. If one looks at positional symmetry, Josh Doan is the replacement for Peterka, though he isn't a top six. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, 7+6=13 said:

You've been arguing against the very thing you just posted.  Last years roster didn't include Norris, so let's factor that in with the loss of Pererka's production, etc.

I knew you would agree in the end.

No. You're twisting the words. You include Cozens as well then. You can then make the argument that Cozens production was crap (which it was) but then also Norris was injured and didn't produce much for them. So last year they expected Cozens to step up. This year they expect Norris to stay healthy. There's always a hope and pray aspect and a young guy stepping up aspect to the Sabres. They don't build with established veterans. So if Benson and Kulich step up or Quinn re-emerges then I guess your forwards aren't terrible but as usual we are relying on a bunch of kids to leap forward and the one kid who did leap forward is gone. 

[shrader]

Another thrilling offseason conversation. All that matters is the sum of the parts. 

[JP51]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm sure that Doan will be a good addition. On the other hand, I'm hoping/expecting that Kesseiring will be the more impactful addition in this trade. If he can become the suitable partner for Power, it will benefit the unit a lot by allowing the other defenders to be more properly slotted. 

I am not sure i have a feeling about Doan... I just do... 

7 hours ago, Turbo44 said:

analytically he’s one of the top forcheckers in the game + he has very good size. A very late bloomer (went undrafted in his first year of eligibility which is shocking given his name) so let’s hope he develops as a decent scorer. I don’t expect him to approach Peterka’s numbers but if he can get to 70% of peterka’s offense that would be a huge win

If he is the anti Peterka with 70% of his numbers you have a guy that plays two ways produces maybe at a 20 goal 45pt pace has size and grit we need 4 more of that 

[PerreaultForever]

22 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I am not sure i have a feeling about Doan... I just do... 

If he is the anti Peterka with 70% of his numbers you have a guy that plays two ways produces maybe at a 20 goal 45pt pace has size and grit we need 4 more of that 

You're just wishing and hoping. It's all they leave us with every year. If this guy if that guy maybe him maybe maybe maybe. Rarely doe much of it come to fruition though. Utah obviously didn't feel this way about Doan or they wouldn't have made the deal. 

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're just wishing and hoping. It's all they leave us with every year. If this guy if that guy maybe him maybe maybe maybe. Rarely doe much of it come to fruition though. Utah obviously didn't feel this way about Doan or they wouldn't have made the deal. 

My understanding is that KA wouldn't accept a one for one (JJP for Keisseiring) deal. So Doan was added to the deal to satisfy KA. How good will each of our new acquisitions play for us? TBD. For me, this was a fair deal for both sides.  

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're just wishing and hoping. It's all they leave us with every year. If this guy if that guy maybe him maybe maybe maybe. Rarely doe much of it come to fruition though. Utah obviously didn't feel this way about Doan or they wouldn't have made the deal. 

Vancouver didn’t have high regard for Michael Peca when they included him in the Mogilny deal. 

[7+6=13]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

No. You're twisting the words. You include Cozens as well then. You can then make the argument that Cozens production was crap (which it was) but then also Norris was injured and didn't produce much for them. So last year they expected Cozens to step up. This year they expect Norris to stay healthy. There's always a hope and pray aspect and a young guy stepping up aspect to the Sabres. They don't build with established veterans. So if Benson and Kulich step up or Quinn re-emerges then I guess your forwards aren't terrible but as usual we are relying on a bunch of kids to leap forward and the one kid who did leap forward is gone. 

I don't think so, you've shifted the conversation multiple times.  The off season isn't summed up as JJ out Kesselring in.  You've admitted as such.

8 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, Cozens and Norris are both centers. If one looks at positional symmetry, Josh Doan is the replacement for Peterka, though he isn't a top six. 

So then you disagree with PF that the comparison is losing JJ for Kesselring.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

My understanding is that KA wouldn't accept a one for one (JJP for Keisseiring) deal. So Doan was added to the deal to satisfy KA. How good will each of our new acquisitions play for us? TBD. For me, this was a fair deal for both sides.  

Well that's kind of my point. They threw him in as an extra. They saw him as a replaceable bottom end player. People here are talking like he's going to be a top line power forward. It's a little far fetched to say the least. Doan could be an upgrade from our bottom 3 of last year but I really don't see him above Krebs level. 

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

Vancouver didn’t have high regard for Michael Peca when they included him in the Mogilny deal. 

Don't remember the details or perceptions at that time so I can't really say. 

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

I don't think so, you've shifted the conversation multiple times.  The off season isn't summed up as JJ out Kesselring in.  You've admitted as such.

So then you disagree with PF that the comparison is losing JJ for Kesselring.

Those are the MAIN PIECES. The other bigger change is Cozens/Norris as I've said repeatedly. The rest is non consequential. 

[Dr. Who]

5 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

So then you disagree with PF that the comparison is losing JJ for Kesselring.

Sometimes it is semantics. I think Kesselring was the main piece in the trade, but I don't think Doan was a throw in, and positionally, Peterka is a RW subtraction and Doan is an addition, though obviously not of equal value. 

And this is going outside this specific question, but while I agree that the overall performance of the team is ultimately what matters, that is almost axiomatic, I still think there is value in analyzing the parts. In terms of the latter, I think positional comparison the more straight forward. If others find other ways of analysis more helpful or interesting, naturally, that is an individual prerogative.

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that's kind of my point. They threw him in as an extra. They saw him as a replaceable bottom end player. People here are talking like he's going to be a top line power forward. It's a little far fetched to say the least. Doan could be an upgrade from our bottom 3 of last year but I really don't see him above Krebs level. 

Don't remember the details or perceptions at that time so I can't really say. 

That's debatable. Highly debatable based on what we know. 

[dudacek]

Change is never non-consequential.

Every piece In and out resets the chemistry and creates opportunity.

Chychrun for Jensen helped both teams.

Adding Steven Stamkos for nothing helped torpedo the Predators.

St Louis signed 6-goal scorer Dylan Holloway and got 60-point scorer Dylan Holloway.

People don’t know if the Sabres got better. And their view of the changes won’t matter. But they will continue to expect they haven’t until they do.

Edited July 27 by dudacek

[That Aud Smell]

On 7/23/2025 at 5:20 PM, Thorny said:

If Adams was actually building by the principles dudacek is outlining we’d be a playoff team 

Preach

[dudacek]

Here’s something I have not seen posted about:

If you had to identify the most frustrated Sabres last year would any of Cozens, Lafferty. Clifton, Peterka and Jokiharju not be on the list?

I wonder how many of square pegs with Ruff are left?

Who did they miss? Quinn maybe?  Samuelsson?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that's kind of my point. They threw him in as an extra. They saw him as a replaceable bottom end player. People here are talking like he's going to be a top line power forward. It's a little far fetched to say the least. Doan could be an upgrade from our bottom 3 of last year but I really don't see him above Krebs level. 

Don't remember the details or perceptions at that time so I can't really say. 

Few people are categorizing him as a top line forward. He’s a lower line forward who plays a hard style of game.