GDT: Sabres @ Maple Leafs: November4, 2023 @ 7:00PM, NHL Network, MSG-B, and NBCS-PH

[Second Line Center]

I knew losing Quinn was a bigger deal then we thought.  
 

Also KA - no team ever has drafted player after player and those guys with almost no changes to the roster go on to win the Cup.  
 

Believing you’ve drafted (Power, Dahlin, Cozens, Muel) or developed (Tage) 10 plus guys plus that are going to win you a Cup is not rational.

 

Muel’s injuries are a problem.  Best kind of reliability is availability.  Not saying to trade him - but it’s getting ridiculous.  
 

Trades are going to have to happen that are going to shake this roster up in ways we weren’t expecting.  

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I agree that TP has most likely decided that he trusts KA and that he's going to give KA plenty of time.  However:

- It's quite possible that TP doesn't have the same level of confidence in DG.

- We've seen TP get PO'd and fire people suddenly.

I would be pretty surprised if TP were to fire KA during the season -- or even next summer for that matter.  But could he get in KA's ear and pressure him to make a change at coach, especially if they keep pooping the bed at home for another 6 weeks or so and they are bottom-5 in the conference at Xmas?  Would anyone be shocked if that were to happen?

So which female intern are you having throw herself at Granato to make that happen?  Except for the relieving of Botterill of his duties for refusing to can the majority of the hockey department staff, can't think of an other "sudden" firing that wasn't precipitated by a bit of hanky panky.  (Didn't even the Racconia (sp?) departure have that same undertone?)

[nfreeman]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

So which female intern are you having throw herself at Granato to make that happen?  Except for the relieving of Botterill of his duties for refusing to can the majority of the hockey department staff, can't think of an other "sudden" firing that wasn't precipitated by a bit of hanky panky.  (Didn't even the Racconia (sp?) departure have that same undertone?)

I don't think there was hanky-panky with GMTM and DDB -- just incompetence (and some rumored poor behavior on GMTM's part that didn't include any removal of pants IIRC).

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Second Line Center said:

I knew losing Quinn was a bigger deal then we thought.  
 

Also KA - no team ever has drafted player after player and those guys with almost no changes to the roster go on to win the Cup.  
 

Believing you’ve drafted (Power, Dahlin, Cozens, Muel) or developed (Tage) 10 plus guys plus that are going to win you a Cup is not rational.

 

Muel’s injuries are a problem.  Best kind of reliability is availability.  Not saying to trade him - but it’s getting ridiculous.  
 

Trades are going to have to happen that are going to shake this roster up in ways we weren’t expecting.  

You sure about that?  What big FAs / Trades did the 80's Eulers make to get that team rolling?  Almost all that talent that was there when they joined the NHL was augmented by guys they drafted over the next 4 years.

Anderson, Kurri, Messier, Coffee, Fuhr - all added through the draft.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You sure about that?  What big FAs / Trades did the 80's Eulers make to get that team rolling?  Almost all that talent that was there when they joined the NHL was augmented by guys they drafted over the next 4 years.

Anderson, Kurri, Messier, Coffee, Fuhr - all added through the draft.

Honestly if we have to use the greatest team of all time as the example the argument is a pyrrhic victory

it’s not worth striving to emulate 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think there was hanky-panky with GMTM and DDB -- just incompetence (and some rumored poor behavior on GMTM's part that didn't include any removal of pants IIRC).

But those weren't "sudden" firings and those were very much due to incompetance.  The exception taken to your post was the "sudden" part, implying they were made impulsively.  Forgot LaFontaine, but am certain there was more to that departure than we've been made aware of.

Except for LaLa (which again, there's more to that story than we know about), ALL the firings were due to pure incompetence, were well warranted, and any other management was onboard with.  Can't see Adams getting on board with punting Granato before the end of this season at the absolute earliest and likely after 1 more unsuccessful season (should those in fact happen).

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But those weren't "sudden" firings and those were very much due to incompetance.  The exception taken to your post was the "sudden" part, implying they were made impulsively.  Forgot LaFontaine, but am certain there was more to that departure than we've been made aware of.

Except for LaLa (which again, there's more to that story than we know about), ALL the firings were due to pure incompetence, were well warranted, and any other management was onboard with.  Can't see Adams getting on board with punting Granato before the end of this season at the absolute earliest and likely after 1 more unsuccessful season (should those in fact happen).

That’s the biggest issue imo and what I mean by “uncomfortable” timeline. That scenario basically gives Adams a mulligan after 5 years of missing the playoffs (lol), another go of it with a new coach. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Honestly if we have to use the greatest team of all time as the example the argument is a pyrrhic victory

it’s not worth striving to emulate 

The '86 Habs were built primarily through the kids all coming up at the same time too.  There were players on that team that had come via trade, but the ones that pushed them all over the top had been in the AHL the prior year.

And, the point of both of these is, the claim was "nobody" had ever done it.  Not saying that it's a common occurance; merely that it can and has happened.  And, with all the high end talent that had been accumulated over the prior 6 years, that got converted into current assets and futures, this team has an unusually large influx of higher end talent that is all pretty much at the same age.  IF it is possible to "draft your way to the top" so to speak, this is the scenario where it would be possible.

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That’s the biggest issue imo and what I mean by “uncomfortable” timeline. That scenario basically gives Adams a mulligan after 5 years of missing the playoffs (lol), another go of it with a new coach. 

And you and I are on the same page on that issue.  If they miss the playoffs this year (they won't, but if they do), change needs to happen.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Taro T
Added to point of 2nd paragraph.

[Thorny]

Just now, Taro T said:

The '86 Habs were built primarily through the kids all coming up at the same time too.  There were players on that team that had come via trade, but the ones that pushed them all over the top had been in the AHL the prior year.

And, the point of both of these is, the claim was "nobody" had ever done it.  Not saying that it's a common occurance; merely that it can and has happened.

It’s just not something we see very much if at all in..any recent decade haha 

I respect the commitment to the nitty gritty though that’s so me 

[nfreeman]

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You sure about that?  What big FAs / Trades did the 80's Eulers make to get that team rolling?  Almost all that talent that was there when they joined the NHL was augmented by guys they drafted over the next 4 years.

Anderson, Kurri, Messier, Coffee, Fuhr - all added through the draft.

BTW, I recently did a re-watch of Season 1 of "Fargo" -- which is a solid A, for anyone who's interested -- and I love the fact that a fairly sleazy character has a personal security guy named "Semenko."

 

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But those weren't "sudden" firings and those were very much due to incompetance.  The exception taken to your post was the "sudden" part, implying they were made impulsively.  Forgot LaFontaine, but am certain there was more to that departure than we've been made aware of.

Except for LaLa (which again, there's more to that story than we know about), ALL the firings were due to pure incompetence, were well warranted, and any other management was onboard with.  Can't see Adams getting on board with punting Granato before the end of this season at the absolute earliest and likely after 1 more unsuccessful season (should those in fact happen).

I agree with most of this, but I think most of us were taken by surprise when the axe fell on GMTM and DDB.  (YMMV, of course.)  And in that regard, it's worth noting that KA has already had a longer tenure than GMTM had, and if DG lasts the entire season, he'll have been here longer than DDB was.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Serious question:  what if they come out in a coma again, get smoked by the Leafs, the only cheering in the building is by Leafs fans and the boos rain down again from the Sabres fans?  Does TP do something precipitous?

I don't think he will, but the likelihood is greater than zero.

This game is in Tronna for the record. 

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

Or a rookie that has looked completely overwhelmed minus the two tap in goals he had.  
 

I’ve kept my mouth shut about Biro but I never understood the orgs fascination with him.  The Penn St Pegula tie is looking sus.  He’s a good AHL player but I never saw a skill set that screamed NHLer.  People have mentioned his 200 ft game.  I haven’t see it.  He’s a good offensive player in the AHL.  Period.  Not to mention he’s been playing with world class prospects every game of his career.  

What fascination are you referring to?  He’s played 3 NHL games. The Sabres are giving him and Rousek looks to see if their games translate to a higher level. I think this is important. You might have a Derek Ryan in your midst. Also, you give such players, who are most likely career minor leaguers, some hope and something to keep aiming for. If they don’t rise to the occasion they will be back in Rochester. 

[Pimlach]

32 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

This game is in Tronna for the record. 

So we have a better chance.  
 

The team is very tight at home.  Don’t understand it but they like the crowd against them more than for them.  Never seen home play this much worse than road play for this many years.  Probably a sign of a losing team. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Serious question:  what if they come out in a coma again, get smoked by the Leafs, the only cheering in the building is by Leafs fans and the boos rain down again from the Sabres fans?  Does TP do something precipitous?

I don't think he will, but the likelihood is greater than zero.

I hope TP stays away. 
 

It’s too early to push panic button.  Let’s see what Santa brings first, evaluate everything at that time.  
 

That said, I am way more upset at the players for the last 6 periods of morbid hockey, much more than at the coaches.  There are 6-7 that are not good enough to be on playoff team right now.  Replacing them with rookies is not the answer.  As for the core, they better show up tonight big time.  

[Weave]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I hope TP stays away. 
 

It’s too early to push panic button.  Let’s see what Santa brings first, evaluate everything at that time.  
 

That said, I am way more upset at the players for the last 6 periods of morbid hockey, much more than at the coaches.  There are 6-7 that are not good enough to be on playoff team right now.  Replacing them with rookies is not the answer.  As for the core, they better show up tonight big time.  

Under .500 hockey through Christmas might be too much to overcome for a playoff ticket.

[Two or less]

Friend who is in Toronto says Ryan Johnson just got out of a car in Toronto. 
 

he says Biro has left in a car. 

[That Aud Smell]

Last night broke me a bit.

I’ll monitor the score tonight.

[Doohickie]

Meaningless weeds.

[Pimlach]

21 minutes ago, Weave said:

Under .500 hockey through Christmas might be too much to overcome for a playoff ticket.

True if they collapse.  I expect they will hover around .500 for awhile.  
 

But firing a coach is serious, and there is no one on his staff that should be running an NHL team.  I prefer they have someone that can continue DGs good work and yet bring better game day coaching. I doubt Adams has even thought about it.  

Edited November 4, 2023 by Pimlach

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Second Line Center said:

I knew losing Quinn was a bigger deal then we thought.  
 

Also KA - no team ever has drafted player after player and those guys with almost no changes to the roster go on to win the Cup.  
 

Believing you’ve drafted (Power, Dahlin, Cozens, Muel) or developed (Tage) 10 plus guys plus that are going to win you a Cup is not rational.

 

Muel’s injuries are a problem.  Best kind of reliability is availability.  Not saying to trade him - but it’s getting ridiculous.  
 

Trades are going to have to happen that are going to shake this roster up in ways we weren’t expecting.  

Nobody expects it.  We all wanted it.  Before the season.  

[inkman]

Don’t see it posted anywhere, RyJo called up for tonight’s game.  
 

 

9 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Meaningless weeds.

Not in my pipe 

12 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Last night broke me a bit.

That’s what she said 

[Randall Flagg]

25 minutes ago, Two or less said:

Friend who is in Toronto says Ryan Johnson just got out of a car in Toronto. 
 

he says Biro has left in a car. 

Is he hiding in the hotel bushes with binoculars?

[inkman]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

Is he hiding in the hotel bushes with binoculars?

[Pimlach]

Ryan Johnson’s shot came sooner than I thought it would/should.  

The last of the infamous ROR trade.  Maybe he has a good game?  Maybe Tage gets a Hattie? 

[Two or less]

Also friend says he did not see Cozens with the team.