Erik Johnson sends a clear message postgame "until we have a commitment to team defense, we won’t accomplish much"

[Thorny]

35 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So there's a guy from outside the organization coming in and saying what some of us have been saying all off season so the question is why has the coaching staff not made that their priority in training camp? Ultimately this falls on the coach.

Ultimately falls on the GM, not the coach

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ultimately falls on the GM, not the coach

Now this, I agree with. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Thorny

I'll take your analogy a step further.  I think in hockey you can get too defensive-oriented and take the creativity away from your skill players.   NJ did this with their trap heavy D, but it did win a couple of Cups for them because their D and goaltending was also outstanding.  Trotz found the right balance during his brief stay in Washington and they also won a Cup.  

DG's task is to find the right balance.  We aren't close to that goal yet, but I do believe Donnie can get them to buy in on defense.  Getting Johnson's leadership in the room will help and as I posted earlier, I am seeing TNT and Skinner come back more in the 1st 4 games than last year.

[Curt]

47 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So there's a guy from outside the organization coming in and saying what some of us have been saying all off season so the question is why has the coaching staff not made that their priority in training camp? Ultimately this falls on the coach.

My guess would be that Granato is trying, but he has the youngest roster in the league.

I think it’s just taking some time.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Thorny

I'll take your analogy a step further.  I think in hockey you can get too defensive-oriented and take the creativity away from your skill players.   NJ did this with their trap heavy D, but it did win a couple of Cups for them because their D and goaltending was also outstanding.  Trotz found the right balance during his brief stay in Washington and they also won a Cup.  

DG's task is to find the right balance.  We aren't close to that goal yet, but I do believe Donnie can get them to buy in on defense.  Getting Johnson's leadership in the room will help and as I posted earlier, I am seeing TNT and Skinner come back more in the 1st 4 games than last year.

“I'm an artist, and if you give me a tuba, I'll bring you something out of it.” - John Lennon 

I like Granato. I just pray Adams didn’t leave him with merely a cowbell 

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

My guess would be that Granato is trying, but he has the youngest roster in the league.

I think it’s just taking some time.

Simultaneously a good excuse for Granato, and following my point on chain of command: no excuse at all for Kevyn Adams 

[matter2003]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

“I'm an artist, and if you give me a tuba, I'll bring you something out of it.” - John Lennon 

I like Granato. I just pray Adams didn’t leave him with merely a cowbell 

Simultaneously a good excuse for Granato, and following my point on chain of command: no excuse at all for Kevyn Adams 

More cowbell!

[Zamboni]

Sooooo today, now it WAS a good move by KA to bring EJ in? I’m just trying to catch up with the latest news. 😂

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

You are broken record. A smug broken record. 

For years I've been saying this and you've insulted me and mocked me. You always have to add your snarky memes and your disagree emojis and YOU have constantly said I knew nothing and YOU and they were right. So am I a little smug now that a stanley cup winner comes to the team and says the same thing? Damn right I am. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

Training camp isn't even close to enough time to have something like that take hold...needs to be game in game out for half a season or more before it is really going to become second nature to players.  Players are not robots.

But it has to start somewhere and there has to be a coaching commitment to it. It has to be. We should have been doing it since Granato got hired, but "offense first" was the mantra. Once a season starts it's too late. 

We did it backwards plain and simple. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

No you see if we had Peca or Torts or whoever is the flavor of the week, they would understand. But since Granato doesn't say the "right" things in front of the cameras, he's apparently oblivious. 

If it's NOT on the coaching then it's on the players, so your argument then is that these players can't/don't/won't do it. It's not like it's Granato's first season here (or there's). 

1 hour ago, Curt said:

My guess would be that Granato is trying, but he has the youngest roster in the league.

I think it’s just taking some time.

Too young. That part falls on KA. Building an all kid team. Folly from the start. 

[Second Line Center]

True but I think they are.  
 

It’s the top line that isn’t producing that’s the problem.   2 goals in 4 games.  3 total points.  
 

Not sure what is going on.  
 

[Marvin]

This is the flaw in developing talent by preaching offence first.  In particular, the forwards look like they know there are defencive assignments, but they have not internalised their basic positioning yet, let alone executing the system.  If they had been taught defence first, we might be here wondering if they could score.

[Jävə Keith]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

More cowbell!

[Archie Lee]

52 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

If it's NOT on the coaching then it's on the players, so your argument then is that these players can't/don't/won't do it. It's not like it's Granato's first season here (or there's). 

Too young. That part falls on KA. Building an all kid team. Folly from the start. 

So, no possibility that they just haven't fully figured it out yet? 

The Sabres are not the first NHL team that needed a "come to defense" moment. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

If it's NOT on the coaching then it's on the players, so your argument then is that these players can't/don't/won't do it. It's not like it's Granato's first season here (or there's). 

Too young. That part falls on KA. Building an all kid team. Folly from the start. 

I mean, I don’t have a problem with building an all kid team and giving all the young guys a chance during a rebuild/retool, but at some point you need to bolster them with some vets when you want to compete.  I fear that Adams didn’t add enough good veterans.

Not that the rebuild is doomed because of it, but it may take them longer to figure it out with fewer veterans to help them along.  And it might negatively impact the chances for playoffs this season.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Curt

[Zamboni]

As much as veteran presence is important…. Why do some think Dahlin, Joker, Tuch, Skinner, TNT, Greenway, Jost, Mitts, Olofsson, Clifton, Comrie aren’t vets?

EJ, Girgs, and Okposo aren’t the only vets with varying degrees of experience in the league.

Or do only the vets who won a cup count? 🤔

[FrenchConnection44]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

So there's a guy from outside the organization coming in and saying what some of us have been saying all off season so the question is why has the coaching staff not made that their priority in training camp? Ultimately this falls on the coach.

I agree. Some are saying talent. But Clifton certainly performed better in Boston with their system. Funny how you get criticism from some simply because they think the problem lies elsewhere. The fact is, it’s a problem and it’s undeniable. If we had better defense, a better defensive system, or greater emphasis on positioning (by defensemen and forwards), we’d do better and I think our goaltending would also improve. We don’t have to become a defensive system itself as some teams are, but still room for much improved coaching  

 

[Weave]

12 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

As much as veteran presence is important…. Why do some think Dahlin, Joker, Tuch, Skinner, TNT, Greenway, Jost, Mitts, Olofsson, Clifton, Comrie aren’t vets?

EJ, Girgs, and Okposo aren’t the only vets with varying degrees of experience in the league.

Or do only the vets who won a cup count? 🤔

They aren’t vets in the been there, done that mold.  They are vets in the never been there mold. This team should have stocked up on playoff tested vets when Eichel was drafted.  They haven’t improved the veteran content enough in the Cozens/Power/Quinn era either.

It is reassuring that Johnson is stepping up.  Not sure he’s enough.  Hopefully Clifton steps up as well.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Weave

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

But it has to start somewhere and there has to be a coaching commitment to it. It has to be. We should have been doing it since Granato got hired, but "offense first" was the mantra. Once a season starts it's too late. 

We did it backwards plain and simple. 

I don’t think we did it backwards. I can think of examples of young players and teams that needed to embrace defensive play to take the next step. I can’t think of a team that was great defensively that then added offense by committing to a more offensive game. Offensive is typically added by adding offensively gifted players. Defense is something you can get better at through commitment. That the results aren’t showing does not mean it is not being stressed or worked towards. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

So, no possibility that they just haven't fully figured it out yet? 

The Sabres are not the first NHL team that needed a "come to defense" moment. 

Oh there's always a possibility, but this isn't a new problem. 

[...]

Wasn't the knock on Lindy at the time he stifled the offense by forcing the forwards to commit to defense? 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I mean, I don’t have a problem with building an all kid team and giving all the young guys a chance during a rebuild/retool, but at some point you need to bolster them with some vets when you want to compete.  I fear that Adams didn’t add enough good veterans.

Not that the rebuild is doomed because of it, but it may take them longer to figure it out with fewer veterans to help them along.  And it might negatively impact the chances for playoffs this season.

My fear is that since Adams didn't do enough in this off season we will burn yet another year. Rather than "win now" in the end they will end up saying some things like "learning experience". When the problems are so glaring and obvious it's frustrating not to see them addressed. 

[PerreaultForever]

13 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I don’t think we did it backwards. I can think of examples of young players and teams that needed to embrace defensive play to take the next step. I can’t think of a team that was great defensively that then added offense by committing to a more offensive game. Offensive is typically added by adding offensively gifted players. Defense is something you can get better at through commitment. That the results aren’t showing does not mean it is not being stressed or worked towards. 

This is part of why I say "backwards". When have you seen this team exercise that sort of continual commitment? You have to build the team with these types of things first, not as an afterthought. 

[Archie Lee]

41 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is part of why I say "backwards". When have you seen this team exercise that sort of continual commitment? You have to build the team with these types of things first, not as an afterthought. 

Just my view, but you have reached a number of conclusions without much evidence. I’m not making excuses. They have not been good through 4 games and need to be better in all phases. But I’m not ready to conclude at this early stage of the season that the youngest team in the league is incapable of committing to growth in any particular area. 

[PerreaultForever]

47 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Just my view, but you have reached a number of conclusions without much evidence. I’m not making excuses. They have not been good through 4 games and need to be better in all phases. But I’m not ready to conclude at this early stage of the season that the youngest team in the league is incapable of committing to growth in any particular area. 

No, you just haven't been here long enough. These "conclusions" are based on years of their play not 4 games. The disappointment is that this year doesn't seem any different and I really wanted them to get it right this time.