GDT: Capitals @ Sabres 12/11 @7 pm

[klos1963]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

But you know that it’s not a given.

And that it’s harder to sustain when you aren’t good enough, and when you don’t trust your goalie.

still not going to praise players for working hard.

[Digger]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Pre Olympic break Dahlin is going to be vastly different than post Olympic break Dahlin IMPO.

To clarify your point are you thinking that Dahlin playing for Sweden will help him with his confidence coming back to the Sabres?

[Scottysabres]

UPL played another good game, making a couple of high reel worthy saves. It's a good sign were seeing some improvement in his pro game. This kid shows some promise.

[Broken Ankles]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

I got the same sensation about this game as you did. If you combine the Ranger game with this game that also included good goaltending and sustained effort those are positive takeaways. In both games it was evident that the opposition was more talented. And in both games it never seemed that we were overmatched. That in itself is encouraging. Of course there is still a long way to go before this team becomes a serious team. However, the trajectory is up and the entertainment value is there. Baby steps forward is better than baby steps back.  

I’m not trying to equate on ice performance with the off ice stuff, but to me it speaks volumes about what is deemed acceptable by the organization (I.e Terry).  And that could be applied to other parts of the Sabres if true. What are other teams doing as part of game day prep should be reviewed and compared?  If it were not for Marty Biron between periods analysis there is zero chance I would tune in to the Sabres broadcast. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Broken Ankles

[Thorny]

17 hours ago, Brawndo said:

What a difference a goalie makes 

At what point in the 17 losses in the last 20 am I supposed to see this “difference”? 

[Thorny]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m sticking with my earlier opinion: the Sabres arent talented enough, but work hard enough to be competitive when they get goaltending.

A big part of why they are “getting” the goaltending is because of a renewed team wide commitment to D. Is it a coincidence the goals for have dried up under UPL? Of course not.

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, klos1963 said:

Most teams(all teams) are expected and in fact do work hard, this is no special accomplishment. They gave up 40 shots, it was goaltending, hard work or not, that kept them in this game. Let's not be happy that the team works hard, that should be a given.

I should have finished the thread before posting, myself. “Read the room” would be advice I should follow. The room reads more like we’ve just won our 17th of 20, tbh haha

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, klos1963 said:

Most teams(all teams) are expected and in fact do work hard, this is no special accomplishment. They gave up 40 shots, it was goaltending, hard work or not, that kept them in this game. Let's not be happy that the team works hard, that should be a given.

There is a demonstrable difference in the play under Krueger than under Granato. Should there be a celebration in the better play under the replacement coach? No. But there is nothing wrong in acknowledging the reality that a less talented team consistently has kept up against more talented teams which didn't happen at the end of the prior coach's tenure. And as you stated it was exceptional goaltending by a young goalie that many people are unsure of that played at a high level and kept us in the game. That should be a reason for positivity. And it shouldn't be surprising that the team with more firepower outshot the team with less talented offensive players. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by JohnC

[bunomatic]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is a demonstrable difference in the play under Krueger than under Granato. Should there be a celebration in the better play under the replacement coach? No. But there is nothing wrong in acknowledging the reality that a less talented team consistently has kept up against more talented team which didn't happen at the end of the prior coach's tenure. And as you stated it was exceptional goaltending by a young goalie that many people are unsure of that played at a high level and kept us in the game. That should be a reason for positivity. And it shouldn't be surprising that the team with more firepower outshot the team with less talented offensive players. 

And I’ll add that in a year that has the mantra of ‘ learning ‘ and ‘ growth ‘ rather than winning , seeing a glimmer of that from a young player or players should be applauded. I still believe that winning should always be a priority but it was nice to see UPL have even a small victory personally even though it wasn’t in the win column.

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I should have finished the thread before posting, myself. “Read the room” would be advice I should follow. The room reads more like we’ve just won our 17th of 20, tbh haha

The reason that I and some others are more upbeat about this team after watching the Ranger and Capital games is not the outcomes. It is the stellar play of a young goaltender who many people were wary of. Most people who follow the Sabres recognize that this is a very incomplete team. That's not a surprise. But also, most people understand that even with an incomplete roster the biggest weakness of this team is its goaltending. In the past two games against a couple of the better teams in the league the Sabres held their own primarily because of the play of the goaltender. Considering how our goaltenders have been playing that should be a reason to be happy about. I understand where the Sabres stand in their rebuild. But that doesn't mean that being pleasantly surprised by the play of UPL isn't a reason to be encouraged. 

[klos1963]

11 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is a demonstrable difference in the play under Krueger than under Granato. Should there be a celebration in the better play under the replacement coach? No. But there is nothing wrong in acknowledging the reality that a less talented team consistently has kept up against more talented team which didn't happen at the end of the prior coach's tenure. And as you stated it was exceptional goaltending by a young goalie that many people are unsure of that played at a high level and kept us in the game. That should be a reason for positivity. And it shouldn't be surprising that the team with more firepower outshot the team with less talented offensive players. 

I have no issue with being positive about the play of UPL, my whole issue is the ' hard working' praise. It's unnecessary.  But we are still losing the vast majority of our games and we have the 5 fewest points in the league.

[JohnC]

Just now, klos1963 said:

I have no issue with being positive about the play of UPL, my whole issue is the ' hard working' praise. It's unnecessary.  But we are still losing the vast majority of our games and we have the 5 fewest points in the league.

There is a plausible explanation why the Sabres are losing a majority of its games. It's not a mystery. Most of the teams we are playing are more talented than this rebuilding team. A person can be a devoted Sabre fan and still recognize that uncomfortable truth. You don't have to be analytical wiz to recognize that. All you have to have is a penny's worth of objectivity  when watching the games. Right now, the Sabres don't have enough talent to be a serious team. It may an uncomfortable fact to acknowledge but it is an obvious reality. 

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The reason that I and some others are more upbeat about this team after watching the Ranger and Capital games is not the outcomes. It is the stellar play of a young goaltender who many people were wary of. Most people who follow the Sabres recognize that this is a very incomplete team. That's not a surprise. But also, most people understand that even with an incomplete roster the biggest weakness of this team is its goaltending. In the past two games against a couple of the better teams in the league the Sabres held their own primarily because of the play of the goaltender. Considering how our goaltenders have been playing that should be a reason to be happy about. I understand where the Sabres stand in their rebuild. But that doesn't mean that being pleasantly surprised by the play of UPL isn't a reason to be encouraged. 

Yes, the “play of UPL” that has directly coincided with the offence drying up 

Coincidence, I’m sure 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

53 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is a plausible explanation why the Sabres are losing a majority of its games. It's not a mystery. Most of the teams we are playing are more talented than this rebuilding team. A person can be a devoted Sabre fan and still recognize that uncomfortable truth. You don't have to be analytical wiz to recognize that. All you have to have is a penny's worth of objectivity  when watching the games. Right now, the Sabres don't have enough talent to be a serious team. It may an uncomfortable fact to acknowledge but it is an obvious reality. 

This is becoming a favourite of Mike Harrington, coincidentally. “You should have known they’d be bad, of course they would be, so it’s on you if you don’t like it”. 

Haha. On the one hand - it’s true. It’s just kinda funny it’s fallen that far, where expression of disappointment at a truly bad team is sort of the “hey you, get real!” opinion 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Thorny

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

At what point in the 17 losses in the last 20 am I supposed to see this “difference”? 

If wins aren't the qualitative measure of success, just create the ambiguous metric of "effort" to demonstrate improvement.  Hard to say things are going well when they were 9-16-3 to finish 2020-21 and 8-15-4 to begin 2021-22.  

Only difference is that different players are on the team and...some holdovers are playing better (Thompson).  

 

[Thorny]

25 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

If wins aren't the qualitative measure of success, just create the ambiguous metric of "effort" to demonstrate improvement.  Hard to say things are going well when they were 9-16-3 to finish 2020-21 and 8-15-4 to begin 2021-22.  

Only difference is that different players are on the team and...some holdovers are playing better (Thompson).  

 

I suppose it’s just hard for me to look another place otherwise than the actual results, when so many of the things that have been pointed to as looming, inevitable agents for change over the years have proved fruitless. 

Yes, Quinn and Peterka - the pillars for Adams right now. They do look really good. But we were supposed to improve when Olofsson and Jokijarhju (and Casey) got back to the lineup - end result remains the same. In a league where other teams also have good prospects on the way, at the end of the day I suppose I’d just be more encouraged if the team we did have right now was amounting to a little more than constant losing. 

People look to the prospects, I’d be a little more hopeful if I didn’t think we were counting on them to bridge so vast a chasm. 

Still lots of season left for that perception to change, though 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Thorny

[sabresparaavida]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I suppose it’s just hard for me to look another place otherwise than the actual results, when so many of the things that have been pointed to as looming, inevitable agents for change over the years have proved fruitless. 

Yes, Quinn and Peterka - the pillars for Adams right now. They do look really good. But we were supposed to improve when Olofsson and Jokijarhju (and Casey) got back to the lineup - end result remains the same. In a league where other teams also have good prospects on the way, at the end of the day I suppose I’d just be more encouraged if the team we did have right now was amounting to a little more than constant losing. 

People look to the prospects, I’d be a little more encouraged if I thought we weren’t counting on them to bridge not so vast a chasm. 

It might help when the team has less JAGs, which the prospects should be replacing. Last night we had Hayden, Bjork, Hinistroza, butcher, and several other Players playing above their role. Moving those players out should help, along with continued development. Cozens has been playing better as the season has gone on, and if he continues his progression he should be fully ready for a 2nd line center role next season and perform well in it. Tage has been much better this season, and belongs at center. Mittelstadt is still a question mark. Oloffson, Tuch, Okposo (if he plays like he has been this season) can play as top 6 wings. The forward group should be significantly better next year, through development, getting rid of the jags, as well as infusion of more young talent. If we could add another top 6 player for a year or two, I think our forward group should be about set. 
 

Our defense will need some work next offseason, Samuelson and Power should be ready to join the team, but we’ll still need to add on the right side.

Goalie is a big Ol’ ? for next year. If UPL keeps playing like this or a slightly worse  level, I would want a 1b goalie added on a 2 year deal. Even if he plays like this for the rest of the year, there’s no saying he wouldn’t regress, having more insurance is necessary. 

 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

It might help when the team has less JAGs, which the prospects should be replacing. Last night we had Hayden, Bjork, Hinistroza, butcher, and several other Players playing above their role. Moving those players out should help, along with continued development. Cozens has been playing better as the season has gone on, and if he continues his progression he should be fully ready for a 2nd line center role next season and perform well in it. Tage has been much better this season, and belongs at center. Mittelstadt is still a question mark. Oloffson, Tuch, Okposo (if he plays like he has been this season) can play as top 6 wings. The forward group should be significantly better next year, through development, getting rid of the jags, as well as infusion of more young talent. If we could add another top 6 player for a year or two, I think our forward group should be about set. 
 

Our defense will need some work next offseason, Samuelson and Power should be ready to join the team, but we’ll still need to add on the right side.

Goalie is a big Ol’ ? for next year. If UPL keeps playing like this or a slightly worse  level, I would want a 1b goalie added on a 2 year deal. Even if he plays like this for the rest of the year, there’s no saying he wouldn’t regress, having more insurance is necessary. 

 

Ya, the coming off-season is really key for me. Replacing JAGs with rooks won’t make us a good team - we’ll need some work on the roster like some of the things you mention 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Thorny

[klos1963]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

There is a plausible explanation why the Sabres are losing a majority of its games. It's not a mystery. Most of the teams we are playing are more talented than this rebuilding team. A person can be a devoted Sabre fan and still recognize that uncomfortable truth. You don't have to be analytical wiz to recognize that. All you have to have is a penny's worth of objectivity  when watching the games. Right now, the Sabres don't have enough talent to be a serious team. It may an uncomfortable fact to acknowledge but it is an obvious reality. 

Who won't acknowledge we don't have the talent? I think that's obvious to everyone. Nothing to do with my post.

[kas23]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Yes, the “play of UPL” that has directly coincided with the offence drying up 

Coincidence, I’m sure 

If this is indeed the case, and it may be, but how can you explain Dell or Subban? Shouldn’t they have been getting the kid gloves treatment as well? Instead, it was blow out after blow out. What about losing two 3-goal leads in a row. Shouldn’t they have played this type of defense in those 3rd periods?
 

And lastly, let’s say for sake of argument that the Sabres are indeed providing a more sturdy defense in front of UPL, isn’t this how the game is intended to be played? Do the top teams in the league not do this as well? Seems like a winning formula to me once we have a little bit more talent on the team. 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, kas23 said:

If this is indeed the case, and it may be, but how can you explain Dell or Subban? Shouldn’t they have been getting the kid gloves treatment as well? Instead, it was blow out after blow out. What about losing two 3-goal leads in a row. Shouldn’t they have played this type of defense in those 3rd periods?
 

And lastly, let’s say for sake of argument that the Sabres are indeed providing a more sturdy defense in front of UPL, isn’t this how the game is intended to be played? Do the top teams in the league not do this as well? Seems like a winning formula to me once we have a little bit more talent on the team. 

I think it’s pretty clear the organization thinks very highly of UPL, and that they were reluctant to get him in there until he was ready. I feel like they are determined to help him out in a way they weren’t with guys like Subban and Dell, who as of now don’t factor in to the long term plans of the organization 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Thorny

[JohnC]

16 hours ago, Thorny said:

This is becoming a favourite of Mike Harrington, coincidentally. “You should have known they’d be bad, of course they would be, so it’s on you if you don’t like it”. 

Haha. On the one hand - it’s true. It’s just kinda funny it’s fallen that far, where expression of disappointment at a truly bad team is sort of the “hey you, get real!” opinion 

The manner one reacts to how this season is unfolding is an individual decision. If one views this season simply from a standing and points perspective then the sensation is going to be deep disappointment. That's now how I am evaluating this season. The GM has been candid about what the direction of this franchise is before the season started. He explicitly has stated that this is a rebuild. Not a partial rebuild but a full blown tear it down rebuild that revolves around the young players. That was demonstrated by his public desire to trade our best players before the season started. The Jack trade saga was visible for everyone to see. There were no behind the scene whispers about the GM's determination to trade Jack for future assets. It was openly declared and known by everyone inside and outside the building what was eventually going to transpire. 

So when I watch Tage, as a center, play beyond my expectation then I am going to appreciate it. When I see UPL, who has had some recent struggles, play two consecutive stellar NHL games against superior opponents then I am going to put it in the plus column, especially considering that the overall goalie play has been dismal for us. (I still realize the position has to be addressed.)

Sometime this season Tuch is going to be cleared to play. And the hope is that Krebs, Peterka, Quinn, Power and Samulsson will be added to the roster next season moving out some of the bland JAGs on this roster. So what we are looking at is the roster being injected with at least half a dozen players that will reshape and bolster the roster within a year or so. 

It's maddening to observe how this franchise has been mismanaged over the past decade. It didn't have to be this way. The chorus of criticism that this franchise has received is well deserved. But if you only focus on what has been done wrong and not what is happening to repair the damage, you end up being angry and frustrated. I'm just not going to do that to the degree that many others are. I prefer to look forward and not backward. What's behind us is a self-made catastrophe manufactured by gross ineptitude. However, what's in front of us looks more appealing to me. That's where I am coming from. 

 

[That Aud Smell]

Watched some of the Friday game and most of the Saturday game. I liked how they played in both. And I think they actually deserved a better outcome in the Saturday game, at least.

I can recall fans (myself?) saying things like: "I could tolerate the team losing tons of games, so long as they were enjoyable to watch." Or something to that effect. That's what's going on right now. I see a lot of honest effort and pretty good hockey. The results just aren't there -- yet.

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

The manner one reacts to how this season is unfolding is an individual decision. If one views this season simply from a standing and points perspective then the sensation is going to be deep disappointment. That's now how I am evaluating this season. The GM has been candid about what the direction of this franchise is before the season started. He explicitly has stated that this is a rebuild. Not a partial rebuild but a full blown tear it down rebuild that revolves around the young players. That was demonstrated by his public desire to trade our best players before the season started. The Jack trade saga was visible for everyone to see. There were no behind the scene whispers about the GM's determination to trade Jack for future assets. It was openly declared and known by everyone inside and outside the building what was eventually going to transpire. 

So when I watch Tage, as a center, play beyond my expectation then I am going to appreciate it. When I see UPL, who has had some recent struggles, play two consecutive stellar NHL games against superior opponents then I am going to put it in the plus column, especially considering that the overall goalie play has been dismal for us. (I still realize the position has to be addressed.)

Sometime this season Tuch is going to be cleared to play. And the hope is that Krebs, Peterka, Quinn, Power and Samulsson will be added to the roster next season moving out some of the bland JAGs on this roster. So what we are looking at is the roster being injected with at least half a dozen players that will reshape and bolster the roster within a year or so. 

It's maddening to observe how this franchise has been mismanaged over the past decade. It didn't have to be this way. The chorus of criticism that this franchise has received is well deserved. But if you only focus on what has been done wrong and not what is happening to repair the damage, you end up being angry and frustrated. I'm just not going to do that to the degree that many others are. I prefer to look forward and not backward. What's behind us is a self-made catastrophe manufactured by gross ineptitude. However, what's in front of us looks more appealing to me. That's where I am coming from. 

 

That's a lot of words.

There's reasonable expectations, and there's losing 17 of 20.

I'm growing weary of the "it's your fault if you expected any kind of winning" argument. I understand that winning wasn't the priority this year. I was talking about it not being a priority before anyone else was. Just because winning, clearly, isn't a priority doesn't mean eliminating them nearly entirely from the repertoire is beneficial or dismissable or non-indicative of things that may be issues going forward.

Losing 17 or 20 deserves more discussion than, "well, they tried hard, and tage is on a 45 point pace!! Winning doesn't matter!". So I'm going to see to that for balance. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Thorny

[That Aud Smell]

^^
YOU PLAY. TO WIN. THE GAME.