2020-21 Trade Rumors and Speculation

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Please take Joki and Cozens off of the list. There are going to be a number of desirable players on the market. So the Sabres will have options as to not only who they might acquire but also who they will have to deal in order to make the acquisitions. I'm very open to trading our #1 pick; I'm not open to trading the two aforementioned players.  

 

25 minutes ago, Weave said:

I feel like I’m the only one that doesn’t see Joki as untouchable.  I don’t WANT to move him, but you have to give value to get value, and I don’t see Joki as one of those guys whose value to the team makes him off the move for a legit 2C list.

For that matter, the only D I put on the do not trade list for a 2C is Dahlin.

He’s absolutely not untouchable. He was pretty good, not great, and also became more prone to giveaways as the season went on. 

I feel the same way - I obviously like him well enough and am definitely not seeking trade him. But these types of players should never be “untouchable”. Why should he be? It’s all about the return. 

13 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The only player on this whole team that is untouchable is Jack. I'd even trade Dahlin for the right return. 

As long as we don’t have the best player in the league, theoretically no one is untouchable for me. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Thorny

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with you about Joki. My opinion of him is off the charts. He is one of the most poised and consistent young defensemen that I have seen in a long time. He is smart and knows what his abilities are and doesn't stray beyond them. What impresses me the most is about him beyond his smooth skating is his intelligence on the ice. He rarely makes a wrong decision when he has the puck. (If Risto had his smarts he would be an all star.) Don't get caught up with a player being able to make dazzling plays and muscular hits. That's not who he is. This young guy is already a second pairing caliber of defenseman and quite possibly the most consistent defender on the unit. When Botterill traded Nylander to get him the GM should have been charged with felonious theft. In my unyielding view he is a no touch player!

It's funny how these narratives develop - Jokiharju's take away to give away ratio was dead last on our team. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Thorny

[Weave]

24 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The only player on this whole team that is untouchable is Jack. I'd even trade Dahlin for the right return. 

For a 2C was the qualifier I used.  The only 2C I’m trading Dahlin for is Draisaitl or Matthews.

[WildCard]

17 minutes ago, Weave said:

For a 2C was the qualifier I used.  The only 2C I’m trading Dahlin for is Draisaitl or Matthews.

Even then I'm keeping Dahlin

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It's funny how these narratives develop - Jokiharju's take away to give away ratio was dead last on our team. 

The recorded Giveaways/Takeaways stats are weird and I’m extremely skeptical of their accuracy 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

I feel like I’m the only one that doesn’t see Joki as untouchable.  I don’t WANT to move him, but you have to give value to get value, and I don’t see Joki as one of those guys whose value to the team makes him off the move for a legit 2C list.

For that matter, the only D I put on the do not trade list for a 2C is Dahlin.

I see a few others have stepped up and I’m glad.

I like Joki a lot and I’m glad people Seem to recognize and appreciate the subtleties of his game.

But he hasn’t shown much in the way of more flashy skills (offence or physicality) or the ability to dominate opponents yet utilizing what he does do well (puck sense, positioning, skating angles and passing) as a shutdown D.

Im like the rest of you, seeing the potential for Hjalmarsson there, but right now he’s Mark Pysyk, and Pysyk never progressed.

I don’t want to move him, but if he’s what it takes to get a 2C I’m not hanging up.

Edited July 16, 2020 by dudacek

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, Curt said:

The recorded Giveaways/Takeaways stats are weird and I’m extremely skeptical of their accuracy 

That’s fair. Personally, they line up with my eye test re: Jokiharju, particularly as the season went on, so they sync up well for me in my perception. 

[Curt]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That’s fair. Personally, they line up with my eye test re: Jokiharju, particularly as the season went on, so they sync up well for me in my perception. 

Yeah, I’m not challenging your position regarding Jokiharju.  I do think that he is overall very solid though, especially for his age.  I feel he might be on a trajectory to be a top pair defenseman.

[IKnowPhysics]

2 hours ago, spndnchz said:

A GM’s job is to do the best he can with he has. Botterill did a ***** job at that. He had all the money and resources he needed and failed. That’s why he’s not here anymore. 

The fan base is reallll angsty right now.  All of it stems from losing, but it's pointed in different directions.  Many, but not all, fans were calling for Botterill's job, but those folks don't seem to be expressing pleasure regarding what has occurred.  I can't remember of a time when fans called for a firing, got it, and then still weren't happy.

I don't know if that's because we hired Kevyn Adams, or because we hired a GM without a publicized search, or people wanted a different/better-known name (who would that have been??), or what.  Maybe it's because we have major holes in the roster that aren't yet addressed.  Maybe fans will be more excited if we make start making good roster moves.  But the post-Cup finals offseason doesn't start until potentially October 4th, the Draft is October 10th, and the next season start is December 1st, so we could be in for three to five more months of mopey dregs.

I wasn't screaming for Botterill's head, but I recognize the newly present opportunity to gain traction and move forward.  I still have some singed notion of hope.  I'm hoping some of the glaring roster issues get attention so we can ice a remotely competitive team come December.

I'm excited about some elements: Eichel, Dahlin, Cozens, and much more, but they need some help.

Edited July 16, 2020 by IKnowPhysics

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It's funny how these narratives develop - Jokiharju's take away to give away ratio was dead last on our team. 

Joki was 20 yrs old last year. How many defensemen that young can play as well as he did in this league? You can use stats in his rookie year to diminish his play. After watching him play last season it isn't a stretch to project that he is going to be better than a good player. His performance level is not static. In another couple to few years he is going to be an established second pairing player for us. For me he is a no touch player.  

[dudacek]

40 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Joki was 20 yrs old last year. How many defensemen that young can play as well as he did in this league? You can use stats in his rookie year to diminish his play. After watching him play last season it isn't a stretch to project that he is going to be better than a good player. His performance level is not static. In another couple to few years he is going to be an established second pairing player for us. For me he is a no touch player.  

Not sure why a 2nd pairing guy is a no-touch.

[JohnC]

27 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

The fan base is reallll angsty right now.  All of it stems from losing, but it's pointed in different directions.  Many, but not all, fans were calling for Botterill's job, but those folks don't seem to be expressing pleasure regarding what has occurred.  I can't remember of a time when fans called for a firing, got it, and then still weren't happy.

I don't know if that's because we hired Kevyn Adams, or because we hired a GM without a publicized search, or people wanted a different/better-known name (who would that have been??), or what.  Maybe it's because we have major holes in the roster that aren't yet addressed.  Maybe fans will be more excited if we make start making good roster moves.  But the post-Cup finals offseason doesn't start until potentially October 4th, the Draft is October 10th, and the next season start is December 1st, so we could be in for three to five more months of mopey dregs.

I wasn't screaming for Botterill's head, but I recognize the newly present opportunity to gain traction and move forward.  I still have some singed notion of hope.  I'm hoping some of the glaring roster issues get attention so we can ice a remotely competitive team come December.

I'm excited about some elements: Eichel, Dahlin, Cozens, and much more, but they need some help.

Your response captures what must of us feel about this team. Many of us are both skeptical and hopeful. That's an unsettling mix. Will the Sabres make a few smart moves that will better balance out the roster and make it more competitive? Will the younger players make the expected/hopeful progression? 

I wasn't as harsh a critic as most of the former GM with the drab personality. I thought he put the team in a good position with its cap situation and number of UFAs on the roster to be in a favorable position this offseason to make some deals to upgrade the roster? Now that he is gone will the younger and inexperienced replacement GM take the mantel and make enough smart moves to make this team a genuine playoff team? 

I'm offering up a lot of questions because it would be foolish to make positive assumptions that this organization will be smart about the decisions it will make this offseason. I may be gullible but I am hopeful. 

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Not sure why a 2nd pairing guy is a no-touch.

We do have players on the defensive unit such as Montour and Risto that could be assets to bring back a return. Joki is a 20 year old player with upside that I believe will be at worst a second pairing caliber of player. Can he be a first pairing caliber of player? Maybe in another year or two??? I just don't see him being moved. This is going to be a very long offseason for the Sabres. Let's see how prominently his name gets mentioned in proposed deals. I just don't see it. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, IKnowPhysics said:

The fan base is reallll angsty right now.  All of it stems from losing, but it's pointed in different directions.  Many, but not all, fans were calling for Botterill's job, but those folks don't seem to be expressing pleasure regarding what has occurred.  I can't remember of a time when fans called for a firing, got it, and then still weren't happy.

I don't know if that's because we hired Kevyn Adams, or because we hired a GM without a publicized search, or people wanted a different/better-known name (who would that have been??), or what.  Maybe it's because we have major holes in the roster that aren't yet addressed.  Maybe fans will be more excited if we make start making good roster moves.  But the post-Cup finals offseason doesn't start until potentially October 4th, the Draft is October 10th, and the next season start is December 1st, so we could be in for three to five more months of mopey dregs.

I wasn't screaming for Botterill's head, but I recognize the newly present opportunity to gain traction and move forward.  I still have some singed notion of hope.  I'm hoping some of the glaring roster issues get attention so we can ice a remotely competitive team come December.

I'm excited about some elements: Eichel, Dahlin, Cozens, and much more, but they need some help.

What people want is the Sabres to be good.

As much as most wanted Botterill gone, they still don’t trust the Pegulas to hire that right guy to fix it, and hiring a neophyte while gutting the hockey department fed those fears.

But we all hope Adams will surprise us, which wasn’t the case with most for Botterill.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, JohnC said:

We do have players on the defensive unit such as Montour and Risto that could be assets to bring back a return. Joki is a 20 year old player with upside that I believe will be at worst a second pairing caliber of player. Can he be a first pairing caliber of player? Maybe in another year or two??? I just don't see him being moved. This is going to be a very long offseason for the Sabres. Let's see how prominently his name gets mentioned in proposed deals. I just don't see it. 

There is no way you’d trade a package a 1st rounder (this year is or next) and Henri Jokiharju for a 2C: Monahan, Johansson, Strome, Nugent-Hopkins? How about Joki a sweetener and #8 for Cirelli or Matt Barzal?

Edited July 16, 2020 by dudacek

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There is no way you’d trade a package a 1st rounder (this year is or next) and Henri Jokiharju for a 2C: Monahan, Johansson, Strome, Nugent-Hopkins? How about Joki a sweetener and #8 for Cirelli or Matt Barzal?

If your trade scenario for Cirelli or Barzal was offered I would quickly make the deal with one qualification. Both of those players would have to be signed for the long term. If not, then I'm not making the deal.  

[Andrew Amerk]

27 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There is no way you’d trade a package a 1st rounder (this year is or next) and Henri Jokiharju for a 2C: Monahan, Johansson, Strome, Nugent-Hopkins? How about Joki a sweetener and #8 for Cirelli or Matt Barzal?

We already have a few Johansson’s. 
 

I would give up #8, Mitts, and a Borgen or a Bryson or some other D prospect for Cirelli, but not Joki b

Edited July 16, 2020 by Andrew Amerk

[Curt]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There is no way you’d trade a package a 1st rounder (this year is or next) and Henri Jokiharju for a 2C: Monahan, Johansson, Strome, Nugent-Hopkins? How about Joki a sweetener and #8 for Cirelli or Matt Barzal?

I don’t think I would do those deals.  Definitely not for #8 and Jokiharju for one of those first group.

[dudacek]

I’d give up 8 and Joki for Cirelli so fast the trade agreement would be singed.

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

Yeah, I’m not challenging your position regarding Jokiharju.  I do think that he is overall very solid though, especially for his age.  I feel he might be on a trajectory to be a top pair defenseman.

Agree - and I said as much. No desire to trade him, as I stated. 

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Joki was 20 yrs old last year. How many defensemen that young can play as well as he did in this league? You can use stats in his rookie year to diminish his play. After watching him play last season it isn't a stretch to project that he is going to be better than a good player. His performance level is not static. In another couple to few years he is going to be an established second pairing player for us. For me he is a no touch player.  

Confusing. I didn't take issue with anything in your post. I said he was good, not great - I obviously understand that young players improve. 

I wasn't trying to diminish his play, I was alluding to how interesting it is that Joki gets a rep for being this incredibly sound decision maker, and Dahlin a turnover mistake prone fiend, when in reality Joki had the worse turnover to take away ratio. 

---

You are arguing as if my position is anti-jokiharju and then, after proclaiming him to be good, stating that's why he's untouchable. 

My argument that you bypassed was about how I view the "untouchable" designation as a whole. Which went unadressed.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Thorny

[sabremike]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I’d give up 8 and Joki for Cirelli so fast the trade agreement would be singed.

Seriously. Same for the Barzilla.

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, IKnowPhysics said:

The fan base is reallll angsty right now.  All of it stems from losing, but it's pointed in different directions.  Many, but not all, fans were calling for Botterill's job, but those folks don't seem to be expressing pleasure regarding what has occurred.  I can't remember of a time when fans called for a firing, got it, and then still weren't happy.

I don't know if that's because we hired Kevyn Adams, or because we hired a GM without a publicized search, or people wanted a different/better-known name (who would that have been??), or what.  Maybe it's because we have major holes in the roster that aren't yet addressed.  Maybe fans will be more excited if we make start making good roster moves.  But the post-Cup finals offseason doesn't start until potentially October 4th, the Draft is October 10th, and the next season start is December 1st, so we could be in for three to five more months of mopey dregs.

I wasn't screaming for Botterill's head, but I recognize the newly present opportunity to gain traction and move forward.  I still have some singed notion of hope.  I'm hoping some of the glaring roster issues get attention so we can ice a remotely competitive team come December.

I'm excited about some elements: Eichel, Dahlin, Cozens, and much more, but they need some help.

Good post. The bolded, though, I definitely felt and have expressed optimism merely from the departure of Botterill.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

I don’t think I would do those deals.  Definitely not for #8 and Jokiharju for one of those first group.

 

26 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Seriously. Same for the Barzilla.

Definitely. Joki and 8 for Monahan or RNH is also a no brainer for me. Absolute no brainer. RNH is a 70 point player. 

Maybe maybe maybe if we are really quite lucky, one day, the guy we pick at 8 becomes that good. Hard maybe. The price, to convert that hard maybe to a certainty, and not only that but immediately, without sacrificing the 3-5 years while Jack needs help, is a second pair RHD where we are deep? 

Yes, my answer is yes. It's more likely we are trading the equivalent of Casey Mittelstadt/Alex Nylander and a 2nd pair D for a statistical 1st line C, than it is we are trading a future RNH/Monahan. I take my chances. 

People absolutely overrate the Mystery Box. I understand the need to build through the draft, but the reason it's that way is because, generally, teams aren't lining up to trade you the current version of what you'd HOPE your picks develops into. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Thorny

[thewookie1]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Definitely. Joki and 8 for Monahan or RNH is also a no brainer for me. Absolute no brainer. RNH is a 70 point player. 

Maybe maybe maybe if we are really quite lucky, one day, the guy we pick at 8 becomes that good. Hard maybe. The price, to convert that hard maybe to a certainty, and not only that but immediately, without sacrificing the 3-5 years while Jack needs help, is a second pair RHD where we are deep? 

Yes, my answer is yes. It's more likely than not we are trading the equivalent of Casey Mittelstadt and a 2nd pair D for a statistical 1st line C. I take my chances. 

I disagree wholeheartedly, to me Joki is borderline untouchable. He's literally our only young RHD who has a lick of defensive ability.

I'd certainly trade 8 and a prospect outside of Cozens to acquire a 2C but I'm not robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

RNH really isn't a great choice due to his contract ending at the end of 20-21. He's a good player but I'm not buying what could be a rental. He's also more of a 60 pt player based on his career statistics.

Monahan isn't what we need for a 2C. He doesn't create much offense on his own but rather is a triggerman. If he were with Olofsson or Skinner I doubt much would get accomplished as you would have two shooters without a catalyst. Johnny Hockey is what makes Monahan a 1C/2C. Just watch all his goals from the past few years and watch how many are him actually bringing the puck in or running the play before scoring versus where Gudreau dances around before shuttling pass to Monahan who shovels it or guns it home. 

To be honest I would rather go after a slightly cheaper option in Henrique than either since he''s under contract and can personally score a goal without needing everyone to facilitate him.

[Curt]

35 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Definitely. Joki and 8 for Monahan or RNH is also a no brainer for me 

RNH is under contract one more season, then is a UFA.  I wouldn’t.

Monahan is tougher, for sure.