Jack Eichel: Eliteness

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Couple of shower thoughts on eliteness.

If there's this much debate, he's probably not elite yet. If a hot stretch makes news, surprises people, is used as evidence of eliteness, he's probably not elite. Elite players produce; people expect it.

Finally: quick, name Perreault's biggest goal. Name Jack's. Open-ended thought, for now.

Who is surprised? If you read the Eichel thread on hfboards, other team's fans are like "well yeah he destroys us every time we play him so it's not surprising he's scoring a lot" 

Who is debating? This thread has simply shown me that some people define elite as top ~5 players in the game, which we all agree Jack isn't, while some widen that to ~20-25, which he certainly is. Which, like you said, is more semantics, and perhaps we can just call Jack "in the 98.5th percentille" to be rigorous about it.

True, but what was ROR's biggest goal when he was here? Does that say anything about his ability to play when it counts? Of course it didn't - the team never provided him an opportunity for a big moment. However, when placed on a team that had its ***** together, him doing the same stuff he did here also meant him doing it in the Stanley Cup Finals and winning a Smythe because of it. It's the same argument with Jack - the ability is obviously there for him to make a huge impact when it matters - a frantic back and forth game between a high-octane Habs team ended in success, a game with like 5 lead changes, Jack leading the way. Primary plays on most of Skinner's late game heroics in the last two years. Lugging us on his back in Boston, not only for his 4 point games that singlehandedly won each game, but his primary role in meaningless-season comebacks from down 2 goals in that building more than once, including October 2017 while I was ducking in a bathtub for a tornado warning and in the winter of 16-17 as well. He leads our team in OT goals by far since he got here. He has a slate of 100 single game performances on the level of the Vegas home game last year that would grant him instant classic status had they happened in the playoffs, and the exact same thing could have been said about Ryan for his time here, and the change to a successful team showed that to be true, just like making this team successful around a man with 39 points and a +10 in just 29 games will allow him to rack up the same kind of moments on a much greater platform. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Zamboni]

Why compare our thoughts with people over at HFBoards? I couldn’t care less about people over there. On this board, with this group of fans, fans of this team, is what matters most. Not what other fans of other teams think. And it looks like the majority think Eichel is (by their personal definition) “Elite” . It’s not wrong. It’s a personal opinion.

[#freejame]

There have been zero big goals for the Sabres in Eichel’s time here therefore he has no big goals. He has come through in the clutch many times to win us games however. But since none of those games have mattered in the slightest, I don’t think it can be said he’s scored a big goal.

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Why compare our thoughts with people over at HFBoards? I couldn’t care less about people over there. On this board, with this group of fans, fans of this team, is what matters most. Not what other fans of other teams think. And it looks like the majority think Eichel is (by their personal definition) “Elite” . It’s not wrong. It’s a personal opinion.

This was just to point out that among NHL fans, the consensus seems to be that Eichel's season is not surprising because they view him as an elite player, which is a contrast to a suggestion in the post I was responding to.

[PASabreFan]

OK. I retract the use of the word surprise.

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Couple of shower thoughts on eliteness.

If there's this much debate, he's probably not elite yet. If a hot stretch makes news, surprises people, is used as evidence of eliteness, he's probably not elite. Elite players produce; people expect it.

Finally: quick, name Perreault's biggest goal. Name Jack's. Open-ended thought, for now.

Can’t say I’m surprised by it. Part of what makes the Eichel elite argument so easy to make is that his production has consistently increased year over year since coming into the league. An elite player reaching true elite production at age 23 makes perfect sense, as it does for Jack, considering his trend line. 

I get the idea that at some point that type of stuff is just expected from elite guys, but we have to let these things play out. The time for expectation comes once the player in question has developed, which is exactly what is happening right now. He’s reached elite production. It’s about sustaining it now, yes. But he doesn’t need to do anything other than maintain what we’ve already seen. I see an elite player. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Thorny
Sorry PA didn’t read through till the end of thread before responding to your post :)

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Obviously Marchand, Bergeron and Pastrnak.

Krecji Coyle and Debrusk are their next three, IMO. Don't see it as a huge reach where adding one player to Olofsson and Johansson will match that. Even then, we'd still need better goaltending, a more dominant first line, and better game-to-game commitment to match the Bruins level.

But as @Thorny is fond of saying, we're one more good forward away from competing.

Our top line seems pretty dominant. True, it’d be nice to upgrade one of the wings, but ya, I think if we add one more top 6 guy to the group in general, things would be looking pretty good there. I’m with @LGR4GM that we seem to have about 4 right now counting Olofsson. 

This makes the Dreger report from today re: Botterill a little frustrating. 

[Thorny]

Eichel has now gone nearly 1/6th of an entire NHL season on this streak. Should be getting even more play league wide than it is. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

Eichel has now gone nearly 1/6th of an entire NHL season on this streak. Should be getting even more play league wide than it is. 

He did get some love from the 31 Thoughts Podcast last week 

[LGR4GM]

On 12/6/2019 at 5:34 PM, Thorny said:

Our top line seems pretty dominant. True, it’d be nice to upgrade one of the wings, but ya, I think if we add one more top 6 guy to the group in general, things would be looking pretty good there. I’m with @LGR4GM that we seem to have about 4 right now counting Olofsson. 

This makes the Dreger report from today re: Botterill a little frustrating. 

I missed the report, what was it?

[Brawndo]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I missed the report, what was it?

Botterill is working the phones, but nothing is on the front burner as of last Friday 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Botterill is working the phones, but nothing is on the front burner as of last Friday 

Sigh. This sucks. We need another forward. 

[Brawndo]

Eichel named the NHL’s 3rd Star of the week 

[Zamboni]

Some Sabres fans ... and the NHL brass as a whole ...

[Doohickie]

14 hours ago, Thorny said:

Eichel has now gone nearly 1/6th of an entire NHL season on this streak. Should be getting even more play league wide than it is. 

He's the NHL's Third Star this week.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Doohickie
Dang it, Brawndo...

[Zamboni]

14 hours ago, Thorny said:

Eichel has now gone nearly 1/6th of an entire NHL season on this streak. Should be getting even more play league wide than it is. 

I don’t think this way, but I see that a certain chunk of fans do ... so I’m asking, not out of snark, but only out of pure curiosity....

why does it matter so much to some fans, that a Sabre “gets respect” or “gets recognized” by the league or by other cities or other fans. 
For me, personally, I couldn’t care less about what the league recognizes. Let alone other fan bases or publications/sports journalists Etc....

Not saying you ... but some fans put so much stock in what others think. 

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, Brawndo said:

He did get some love from the 31 Thoughts Podcast last week 

And 3rd star of the week! Lol - such an honour, the league’s hottest player couldn’t crack the top 2. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I don’t think this way, but I see that a certain chunk of fans do ... so I’m asking, not out of snark, but only out of pure curiosity....

why does it matter so much to some fans, that a Sabre “gets respect” or “gets recognized” by the league or by other cities or other fans. 
For me, personally, I couldn’t care less about what the league recognizes. Let alone other fan bases or publications/sports journalists Etc....

Not saying you ... but some fans put so much stock in what others think. 

Probably stems from the fact that so many of the measurements for what constitutes a good or great player are based in public recognition. Stars of the week/month, All-Star /First/Second team selections, Hart, Pearson,  Norris, Vezina, Hall of fame, Conn Smythe etc etc are all decided by voting from those “in the know” in one way or another. 

Sure there are awards like the Stanley Cup and Art Ross that leave nothing to public opinion, but those are less common. 

The answer to why one would want the best player on their favourite team to accumulate awards and recognition I feel is an obvious one. 

[Crusader1969]

this might have been discussed up thread but wouldn't Eichel be in top 3 for Hart at the moment?

[Brawndo]

 

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

this might have been discussed up thread but wouldn't Eichel be in top 3 for Hart at the moment?

Considering the chasm between Eichel and the next scorer on our team in points, and the % of team’s goals that he’s had a hand in stat that he’s at the top of, I’d have him in there. 

McDavid and Draisaitl get to feed off each other on the same line, as do Pastrnak and Marchand. I’m not sure there’s a team in the league that would suffer as much as the Sabres if you took away one player, and the Hart is “value to his TEAM”. 

So my three would probably be Eichel, MacKinnon, and maybe John Carlson. Of course McDavid is McDavid so no qualms with him getting a spot over Carlson. 

Still really early though. 

[dudacek]

YReal interesting piece in the Athletic today that basically answers the question of why Jack continues to play with Reinhart and Olofsson: It’s because Krueger believes those two are giving Jack exactly what he needs to go on the tear he’s on.

https://theathletic.com/1446185/2019/12/10/factchecking-ralph-kruegers-claim-that-the-olofsson-eichel-reinhart-line-is-already-one-of-the-best-lines-in-the-nhl/

“Victor and Sam, especially, are just really aware of the game that Jack’s playing and how to best support him,” Krueger said. “Victor probably more leaning toward the defensive side of support and Sam doing his job defensively but being more the one that’s closest to Jack as a give-and-go on the way to the offense. That’s what makes that line so special is that they work it out between them.

“Victor is the one that’s generally above the group and Sam is always kind of in-between connecting them. … Jack is getting the numbers he’s getting because of the way we’re working as a group when he’s on the ice and we’re supporting him in both directions.”

Eichel’s run has overshadowed a fairly remarkable stretch for Olofsson. Since heading home to Sweden for the Global Series last month, the rookie has points in 13 of 16 games. He’s put up six goals and 16 points during the stretch, bringing his season totals to 12 goals and 26 points. His point total ranks 34th in the NHL.

With 11 goals and 23 points, Reinhart is 58th in the league scoring race. Having all three linemates in the top 60 makes them a bonafide first line. That is what the Sabres need with Eichel on the ice.

During this run, according to Natural Stat Trick, the line has a Corsi of 56.25, leads opposing lines in shots 90-68 and has allowed just five goals.

The immediate comparison is Edmonton’s Connor McDavid, Leon Draisaitl and Zack Kassian. Draisaitl leads the NHL with 53 points in 32 games while McDavid is just one point behind in second place. Their line has outscored opponents 27-21 this season, though their Corsi is 47.22.

When healthy, Boston boasts the terrifying trio of Brad Marchand, David Pastrnak and Patrice Bergeron. They’ve combined for 51 goals and 111 points this season, giving them the edge over Buffalo’s top line (41 goals, 91 points). But the Bruins’ threesome has 18 goals and 39 points on the power play. They’ve outscored opponents at even strength 21-15, not far off the Sabres’ 22-17 total. Boston’s unit has the puck a lot more with a 56.65 Corsi.

The Eichel line has nine more goals and four fewer points than Florida’s top unit of Aleksander Barkov, Jonathan Huberdeau and Evgenii Dadonov. Barkov’s line is outscoring opponents 27-23 at even strength.

Edited December 10, 2019 by dudacek

[sabills]

 

[Thorny]

Eichel is 6th in points, 4th in even strength points, and 1st is even strength goals. 

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, sabills said: